Big 3

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JEN

Union officials dont care about unemployment. Union membership exists to be exploited by union officials. Sometimes union officials play both sides, that is accept bribes from companies to work against union demands for pay increases etc. The union I belonged to stole the pension fund.

 

[jeninflorida]

well the UAW killed this deal...makes me feel that we should not bail out the big 3 and let them go ch 11, then the UAW is forced to change and the leadership of the UAW must go!

I'm just not sure who is living in more of a fantasy land, leaders of GM or the UAW? UAW would rather have GM fail and go on umemployment than work with the company, find let all GM employees go on unemployment....

JEN

Union officials dont care about unemployment. Union membership exists to be exploited by union officials. Sometimes union officials play both sides, that is accept bribes from companies to work against union demands for pay increases etc. The union I belonged to stole the pension fund.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Bankruptcy only hurts the UAW, so I dont know why we're losing sleep over Detroit going bankrupt. The hysteria makes no sense at all.

The cars people want to buy...Cadillac. Jeep, Corvettes et al will still be made by someone else.

And the bailout money wont help one American get enough cash to buy a car. Huh!

The government would do better to give the money to state & local governments so they can buy new cars for their cops and social workers.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081212/D95106M80.html DOA

 

[jeninflorida]

lol...I'm not losing any sleep over this. I just feel bad for the people working for GM....but if someone gets a pink slip today would they go into the job bank program? locally, i a friend was working for a company, and she with 9 others were let go...another 4 accepts a pay cut of 40% and now work 4 days a week. i just can't imagine giving someone a pink slip between now and xmass.

the arrogance of the UAW leaders that steams me

Bankruptcy only hurts the UAW, so I dont know why we're losing sleep over Detroit going bankrupt. The hysteria makes no sense at all.

The cars people want to buy...Cadillac. Jeep, Corvettes et al will still be made by someone else.

And the bailout money wont help one American get enough cash to buy a car. Huh!

The government would do better to give the money to state & local governments so they can buy new cars for their cops and social workers.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081212/D95106M80.html DOA

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The Southern republicans sunk this deal, because they already have foreign auto makers in their states, and they're afraid of the UAW coming in there and unionizing. They were out to bust the UAW. It's as simple as that. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, contribute to their reelection and they didn't waant the UAW coming into their shop.

UAW salaries are comparable to what the non-union workers make. UAW does better in benefits. If the US had universal health care, they'd do about the same.

This country has been getting rich off the backs of the workers for the last 30 years by outsourcing jobs and busting unions and now the chickens have come home to roost: there's no decent jobs left. We give $700 billion to the banks with no strings attached and don't even know what the fuck they're doing with it (hint: they're buying up smaller banks) and we can't scrape together $14 billion to save blue collar jobs.

It's a fucking disgrace. Time for a revolution.

 

[cloudy]

The Southern republicans sunk this deal, because they already have foreign auto makers in their states, and they're afraid of the UAW coming in there and unionizing. They were out to bust the UAW. It's as simple as that. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, contribute to their reelection and they didn't waant the UAW coming into their shop.

UAW salaries are comparable to what the non-union workers make. UAW does better in benefits. If the US had universal health care, they'd do about the same.

This country has been getting rich off the backs of the workers for the last 30 years by outsourcing jobs and busting unions and now the chickens have come home to roost: there's no decent jobs left. We give $700 billion to the banks with no strings attached and don't even know what the fuck they're doing with it (hint: they're buying up smaller banks) and we can't scrape together $14 billion to save blue collar jobs.

It's a fucking disgrace. Time for a revolution.

I agree with you - up to a point.

In Alabama, we have Nissan, Toyota, and Mercedes-Benz, and the workers there are well-paid, have great benefits, and are non-union.

What's the point of a union again?

It wasn't just the fault of the Southern politicians, although they certainly had some part in it, but fault also must be laid at the feet of the UAW, who flat out refused any compromise whatsoever.

eta: I don't know about other states specifically, but Alabama is a Right to Work state, which means that unions can't stop people that don't belong to them from working at the same shop. Unions traditionally fizzle out here, for that reason.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

What will really happen:

Let's understand just what we're talking about by not getting this money to the automakers. We're not talking about them just laying off their workers. We're talking about an entire iondustry folding up and dying. All this because of the votes of some stupid republican lawmakers.

This from the New York Times quoted here::
==============

The companies have been warning that they would run out of money for some time, but crushing bills from their suppliers are coming due. It appeared unlikely that they could hold on until President-elect Barack Obama takes office next month, when he and a new Congress might be able to provide a lifeline, as a Congressional rescue this year looked increasingly unlikely.

As a result, the hypotheticals about the domino effect of the companies’ troubles through the vast network of auto supplier firms — which employ more than twice as many workers as the carmakers — are becoming real.

General Motors and Chrysler, for example, owe their suppliers a total of roughly $10 billion for parts that have been delivered. G.M. has held off paying them for weeks, and Chrysler is paying in small increments. But the cash shortages at G.M. and Chrysler are getting more severe, according to their top executives and other officials. ...

When suppliers big and small start failing, the flow of parts to every automaker in the country will be disrupted because as suppliers typically sell their products to both American and foreign brands with plants in the United States. ...

"Many of the small suppliers will simply liquidate because they don’t have the resources to go reorganize in Chapter 11 bankruptcy," Mr. Casesa said. "They’ll just go away."

So, it's possible that the GOP Senators like Corker and McConnell are stupid, and just don't understand some of the basics of the global auto industry. But we shouldn't dismiss the possibility that the ultras who've taken over the GOP, the people for whom ideology is more important than consequences and reality, would rather risk destroying one of our most important industries in an attempt to destroy a labor union...
================

That is, as in the Clinton impeachment, they'll fuck over the entire nation for the sake of their twisted ideology. They'll risk plunging the country into depression and permanently destroying the US auto industry just so they can take out the UAW.

 

[cloudy]

Let's understand just what we're talking about by not getting this money to the automakers. We're not talking about them just laying off their workers. We're talking about an entire iondustry folding up and dying. All this because of the votes of some stupid republican lawmakers.

This from the New York Times quoted here::
==============

The companies have been warning that they would run out of money for some time, but crushing bills from their suppliers are coming due. It appeared unlikely that they could hold on until President-elect Barack Obama takes office next month, when he and a new Congress might be able to provide a lifeline, as a Congressional rescue this year looked increasingly unlikely.

As a result, the hypotheticals about the domino effect of the companies’ troubles through the vast network of auto supplier firms — which employ more than twice as many workers as the carmakers — are becoming real.

General Motors and Chrysler, for example, owe their suppliers a total of roughly $10 billion for parts that have been delivered. G.M. has held off paying them for weeks, and Chrysler is paying in small increments. But the cash shortages at G.M. and Chrysler are getting more severe, according to their top executives and other officials. ...

When suppliers big and small start failing, the flow of parts to every automaker in the country will be disrupted because as suppliers typically sell their products to both American and foreign brands with plants in the United States. ...

"Many of the small suppliers will simply liquidate because they don’t have the resources to go reorganize in Chapter 11 bankruptcy," Mr. Casesa said. "They’ll just go away."

So, it's possible that the GOP Senators like Corker and McConnell are stupid, and just don't understand some of the basics of the global auto industry. But we shouldn't dismiss the possibility that the ultras who've taken over the GOP, the people for whom ideology is more important than consequences and reality, would rather risk destroying one of our most important industries in an attempt to destroy a labor union...

But zoot, many southern politicians don't have to try to destroy a union...that's what I meant in my post. Unions implode here. You're attributing motives to them that don't exist.

Until laws change here (like, when hell freezes over), there's no benefit to joining a union in a Right to Work state, since even if a union does manage to organize a shop, someone who doesn't join gets the same benefits without paying the exorbitant dues, and can't be shut out of a job.

 

[jeninflorida]

Well it depends on how you add the numbers together. GM adds the cost of the pension system and the job bank, and that is how they get $70/hr labor cost. Not that the employee gets close to that, I remember reading that a UAW worker earns on average $5-10 more. Reading in the press and reality are two separate entities.

Universal health care, that scares me, but we’ve been lucky with the companies that we work for. Have good health care with small co-pay’s and the company picks up the tab. Having the government run another program…well get ready for another bail out in 10 years.

The Southern republicans sunk this deal, because they already have foreign auto makers in their states, and they're afraid of the UAW coming in there and unionizing. They were out to bust the UAW. It's as simple as that. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, contribute to their reelection and they didn't waant the UAW coming into their shop.

UAW salaries are comparable to what the non-union workers make. UAW does better in benefits. If the US had universal health care, they'd do about the same.

This country has been getting rich off the backs of the workers for the last 30 years by outsourcing jobs and busting unions and now the chickens have come home to roost: there's no decent jobs left. We give $700 billion to the banks with no strings attached and don't even know what the fuck they're doing with it (hint: they're buying up smaller banks) and we can't scrape together $14 billion to save blue collar jobs.

It's a fucking disgrace. Time for a revolution.

 

[rgraham666]

But zoot, many southern politicians don't have to try to destroy a union...that's what I meant in my post. Unions implode here. You're attributing motives to them that don't exist.

Until laws change here (like, when hell freezes over), there's no benefit to joining a union in a Right to Work state, since even if a union does manage to organize a shop, someone who doesn't join gets the same benefits without paying the exorbitant dues, and can't be shut out of a job.

Unless management takes a dislike to them. Or just happens to be in a pissy mood that day. Or decides to make an example of someone pour les encouragment les autres.

'Right to Work' means 'Right to be property'.

 

[cloudy]

Unless management takes a dislike to them. Or just happens to be in a pissy mood that day. Or decides to make an example of someone pour les encouragment les autres.

'Right to Work' means 'Right to be property'.

It works both ways, Rob. Without "right to work" means you don't have to actually work like everyone else to receive the same pay.

 

[jeninflorida]

I think the union issue varies on what you do. Example the union tried to organize the tech industry back in the 90’s and it failed miserably. The census was “why should I give the union something when I’m earning a great wage and can jump to ten different companies.” Granted, the timing was the “client/server” days and “Dot Com” days. For me, my job security is in myself, but I’ve been luck and when I do make a mistake in accepting a job I’ve been able to find a new job.


Now, I think Vegas went union?

The Southern republicans sunk this deal, because they already have foreign auto makers in their states, and they're afraid of the UAW coming in there and unionizing. They were out to bust the UAW. It's as simple as that. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, contribute to their reelection and they didn't waant the UAW coming into their shop.

UAW salaries are comparable to what the non-union workers make. UAW does better in benefits. If the US had universal health care, they'd do about the same.

This country has been getting rich off the backs of the workers for the last 30 years by outsourcing jobs and busting unions and now the chickens have come home to roost: there's no decent jobs left. We give $700 billion to the banks with no strings attached and don't even know what the fuck they're doing with it (hint: they're buying up smaller banks) and we can't scrape together $14 billion to save blue collar jobs.

It's a fucking disgrace. Time for a revolution.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

My old man was a union operating engineer for many years; my mom got shit from the union when he died. My uncles and I belonged to the Sheet Metal Workers union..when the oldest uncle retired after 40 years there was no pension because all the money was embezzled by the union princes. I lost 10 years worth of vestment. I paid $1500 for my card plus hourly dues and assessments for whatever the union princes dreamed up. Plus the union princes made all kinds of sweetheart deals with contractors to pay union labor less money.

DOC?

How do you figure Detroit will stop making Cadillacs and Lincolns and Jeeps and Corvettes?

 

[jeninflorida]

I'm happy to live in a right to work state, its easy to get rid of the bad apples.

everyone has bad days, the key for me has been not to react on emotion.

part of the leadership is to make sure that the leaders under he or she are performing and not acting like they are still in high school. its best to plan and lead than to react via fire.

Unless management takes a dislike to them. Or just happens to be in a pissy mood that day. Or decides to make an example of someone pour les encouragment les autres.

'Right to Work' means 'Right to be property'.

 

[rgraham666]

I'll just link to this thread I started.

And with that I'm out of this thread. People may believe unions serve no useful purpose. They may believe they are now an active agent of evil.

I disagree. If you get rid of them things like this will happen again. Or this. Or numerous other such horrible incidents. No matter what the level of technology available a 19th Century social structure will only support a 19th creation and distribution of wealth.

 

[jeninflorida]

one of my biggest issues is that unions forget about supply and demand, they force the labor rate to be x, regardless of market conditions.

I'll just link to this thread I started.

And with that I'm out of this thread. People may believe unions serve no useful purpose. They may believe they are now an active agent of evil.

I disagree. If you get rid of them things like this will happen again. Or this. Or numerous other such horrible incidents. No matter what the level of technology available a 19th Century social structure will only support a 19th creation and distribution of wealth.

 

[off2bed]

There are non-unionized car companies. Why do they succeed?

There's also www.carbonmotors.com

 

[jeninflorida]

well, with out having to get approval from a union a CEO is free to make quick or quicker changes as the market changes. One main issue with GM, too big and too slow...and they don't make cars that most american's want.

There are non-unionized car companies. Why do they succeed?

There's also www.carbonmotors.com

 

[xssve]

The whole notion of pension funds is outdated, corporations are the biggest proponents of universal healthcare and retirement pensions - it has to do with what's called a dependency ratio - i.e., the ratio of workers vs. retirees - it means that firms with pension funds have to maintain huge amounts of their capital reserves in pension funds - it was the very existence of these pension funds that made so many firms the target of hostile takeover in the Eighties - they had tons of cash, but couldn't use it to buy their own stock, so the companies were taken over and their pension funds looted.

Countries with low dependency ratios tend to display rapid economic growth: Ireland, China, etc., but they'll hit the wall too eventually.

For the big three, it's pretty much the same deal, they have cash, but most of it is tied up in their pension funds - universal healthcare and SS supplementation would be good for everybody, including business - most firms these days are simply very selective about who they give the bennies to, and there are myriad ways to screw workers out of them, so the old system really isn't helping anybody much anyway.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Well it depends on how you add the numbers together. GM adds the cost of the pension system and the job bank, and that is how they get $70/hr labor cost. Not that the employee gets close to that, I remember reading that a UAW worker earns on average $5-10 more. Reading in the press and reality are two separate entities.

Universal health care, that scares me, but we’ve been lucky with the companies that we work for. Have good health care with small co-pay’s and the company picks up the tab. Having the government run another program…well get ready for another bail out in 10 years.

Yeah. Who's going to bail out a government health-care system?

Has it happened in any other country?

 

[jeninflorida]

from some simple research I've read that both Canada and UK are having issues.

wasn't there a speach..."goverment isn't the solutions its part of the problem?"

I just don't feel that the goverment can run anything...there was talk about the local county taking over the local power system like like up in gainsville...but the only issue with that is that the people of gainsville pay 40% higher rates than we do...needless to say once the that came up the local goverment nut walked away from that project.

socialism never works..and most countries that were socialist are trying to move away from socialism and move to a free market...[except cuba and hugo (but hugo is on crack so he will never give up power)] ...except for america where some poeple want to become a socialist country.

my big thing, if one has cancer how long does it take in a universial health system to get help and the same for a major operation? granted, we have a good private health company and to leave that to an unknown, worries me

Yeah. Who's going to bail out a government health-care system?

Has it happened in any other country?

 

[jeninflorida]

three big questions, why isn't anyone talking about how the Big 3 are losing customers...how many cars did they make 10 years ago...5 years ago....1 year ago? poeple are moving away from american cars and moving to other companies....so will we have to bail the big 3 out again when no one is purchasing american cars? american meaning what is left of the big 3?

second, why isn't there a demand for AIG and other hand out companies where they have to give up pay and bennies?

finally, the goverment pension system is under pressure and will be under great pressure very soon as falling tax revenue is killing goverment....these fools in office and goverment "managment" become spoiled while enjoying the gems from the dot com days, day traders, and flippers in the real estate maket....goverment itself needs to go on an Atkins diet

JEN

Union officials dont care about unemployment. Union membership exists to be exploited by union officials. Sometimes union officials play both sides, that is accept bribes from companies to work against union demands for pay increases etc. The union I belonged to stole the pension fund.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

from some simple research I've read that both Canada and UK are having issues.

wasn't there a speach..."goverment isn't the solutions its part of the problem?"

I just don't feel that the goverment can run anything...there was talk about the local county taking over the local power system like like up in gainsville...but the only issue with that is that the people of gainsville pay 40% higher rates than we do...needless to say once the that came up the local goverment nut walked away from that project.

socialism never works..and most countries that were socialist are trying to move away from socialism and move to a free market...[except cuba and hugo (but hugo is on crack so he will never give up power)] ...except for america where some poeple want to become a socialist country.

my big thing, if one has cancer how long does it take in a universial health system to get help and the same for a major operation? granted, we have a good private health company and to leave that to an unknown, worries me

Every other country in the world seems quite happy with their socialized medicine system. Compare the health care you get there with what's available to you here if you lose your job and your employer's health care and can't aford the $1000.month it costs to pay for your own. Then how good is your cancer care? It's like zilch. You fucking die. That's how good the American system is. Try getting insurance without your job, sweetheart, and see how easy and affordable it is.

No one's in a hurry to junk their socialized medicine system. Socialized medicine is no different than the insurance system we have now. The only difference is, the government provides the insurance. What's so fucking hard to understand about that? Same doctors, same hospitals, same level of care, it's just that instead of fighting with your HMO or Blue Cross to get them to pay, the government gets the bill. Why can't people understand this? The insurance companies have them so panicked because of all the billions of dollars in profit they'll lose that people think they'll be going back to the soviet union in the 50's.

I think the government does a pretty good job considering the size of the problems it deals with. Social Security works pretty damned well. The post office mails letters anywhere in the country for 42 cents. The Center for Disease Control's wiped out Polio and smallpox. The FCC's kept the airwaves free and the FAA's made air travel safe and reliable, and the FDA has kept the food and drug supply reasonably safe even though they're woefully underfunded and understaffed. It's not the government who's royally fucked up the economy and brought GM and Chrysler to the edge of financial ruin.

This myth of government incompetence gets tiresome. Everyone pisses and moans about them, but then when the shit hits the fan they go running to the government with their hats in their hands, begging to be bailed out.

 

[freshface]

Thank you, Zoot. You said it much better than I could.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DOC

Let's examine your thesis for its vitality.

Everyone loves Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security. The government manages all three programs. And all three are going bankrupt because of government malpractice. That is, the government borrowed all of the money that these programs collected in excess of operating expenses. They work okay now, but the piper must be paid when my generation retires. Unemployment is bankrupting my state because more people now qualify for Medicaid.

These programs are, for all intents and purposes, Ponzi Schemes that are illegal if you or I try and do the same thing.

BAILOUTS.

Since Spring the US Government has spent more money on bailouts for banks and Wall Street than it spent fighting World War II. In today's dollars WWII cost 3.5 Trillion. The bailouts will total 7 Trillion.

NOW!

There is a roll for government in all of this without government becoming the provider of services.

Governor Crist recently did what I suggested be done long ago. He created a program to provide uninsured residents with affordable insurance. Here's how it works:

Insurance companies furnished the State with 25 different policies that range in cost from $23 to $310 per month. The $23 policy is basic medical care...ONE physical, TWO E/R visits, FIVE primary care appointments, 80% inpatient. A family of 4 gets coverage for less than $100. All the state does is manage the program and deal with the insurance companies. The state doesnt decide what care you get. You decide THAT.

The problem with insurance is employers dont want you to get it because it costs them money. If comapnies actually offered workers affordable insurance, people might sign up for it. So companies offer expensive plans, betting that you wont take it. And most young people dont.