Big 3

[gauchecritic]

I don't understand your question ... Do you mean a V6 or V8 for the engine?

It doesn't really matter about the configuration of the pistons I'm asking about the cubic capacity which give about mid-teens mileage when a lot of the time is spent stationary (and less at greater revs) which is why I specified New York.

 

[rgraham666]

If I might ask one question.

Why does anyone need a 6 or 8 litre car in New York?

(please take it that I understand about fuel economy for long runs etc.)

Ego. It's a way of saying "I've got a big dick. Bigger than yours."

 

[jeninflorida]

its fun to watch two men sword fighting

Ego. It's a way of saying "I've got a big dick. Bigger than yours."

 

[jeninflorida]

The big thing, in the end what matters is that you have a UAW worker is the one stuck.....the worker is the one that is trying to make a better life for his or her family and is stuck…how doesn’t want to do the right thing…who doesn’t want to make the company that they work for better…

The fear that most UAW workers must be feeling, talk about stress! I have to say that this is heart breaking to think about all these layoffs before xmass, ouch. What did the union worker do that was wrong? He or she went to work to do the job but was screwed by the union and the company.

its fun to watch two men sword fighting

 

[Liar]

It doesn't really matter about the configuration of the pistons I'm asking about the cubic capacity which give about mid-teens mileage when a lot of the time is spent stationary (and less at greater revs) which is why I specified New York.

Because people somtimes drive outside of NY?

(Not that you really need a mastodont car for that either, but you know...)

 

[jomar]

If I might ask one question.

Why does anyone need a 6 or 8 litre car in New York?

(please take it that I understand about fuel economy for long runs etc.)

With all big ass SUVs and such in the US people also buy their own big assed SUVs, because they can see traffic better and just feel safer with all that iron around them. Jokes on them though, because cars are built to far higher safety standards (although this has probably changed some).

However, If you're talking Hummer or Expedition and Excursion size, I can't think of any other than ego. Oh wait! No, compensation falls under that category.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

The big thing, in the end what matters is that you have a UAW worker is the one stuck.....the worker is the one that is trying to make a better life for his or her family and is stuck…how doesn’t want to do the right thing…who doesn’t want to make the company that they work for better…

The fear that most UAW workers must be feeling, talk about stress! I have to say that this is heart breaking to think about all these layoffs before xmass, ouch. What did the union worker do that was wrong? He or she went to work to do the job but was screwed by the union and the company.

It's very real. Just anecdotally, I think 6/10 of the women in my mommy-group have direct connections to the big 3 - either they or their hubbie works for them. I'd say 9/10 know someone personally who does.

 

[trysail]

Sen. Dodd (apparently) wants to manage General Motors.

I believe that just might be the perfect punishment for his sins ( unless, of course, he can be talked into assuming the job at Fannie Mae ).

 

[Weird Harold]

If I might ask one question.

Why does anyone need a 6 or 8 litre car in New York?

(please take it that I understand about fuel economy for long runs etc.)

Two reasons -- in addition to ego/fashion/style considerations:

1: larger engines generally mean higher GVW capacity -- you can haul more wieght with a bigger engine.

2: more horsepower means more acceleration which means better ability to merge into traffic -- you don't need as big a gap in traffic to get out of the parking lot.

As to the general question of whether the big three should be allowed to go bankrupt and/or let the market forces sort themout, everyone ignores or forgets that the big three make much more than private automobiles and SUVs.

GM, for example, makes HMMVs for the military as well as Hummers for the status conscious. Chrysler, IIRC, still is the primary builder of tanks and other tracked vehicles for the government. I'm not sure how much of the big 3's business is with the government, but it isn't wise for the military to rely on foreign sources for it's equipment.

Aside from the national security aspect of federal government contracts, the Big 3 also make trucks -- everything from the hated SUVs, (which companies and non-federal governments use to move work crews around,) to long-haul tractors for eighteen wheelers, and every kind of fleet vehicle in between are made by the Big 3.

There is a LOT more to the potential demise of the Big 3 than just whether people will be able to "Buy American Cars" or not.

 

[trysail]

I see there is little understanding of the operation of The Bankruptcy Code here.

Under The Bankruptcy Code, for a period of time a company is given protection from its creditors in order to reorganize its affairs. If confirmed as "debtor-in-possession" by a Bankruptcy Court, the company files a reorganization plan which is very much subject to jockeying and negotiating by the various classes of company creditors. The Bankruptcy Code establishes the various priorities for creditors with liabilities for government payments (e.g., taxes) having first priority, followed by secured creditors, unsecured creditors, trade creditors and, finally, shareholders. Upon approval of a plan of reorganization by a company's creditors ( voting as classes ), the plan is adopted and a company emerges from court protection. Impaired creditors (i.e., those whose claims are not paid in full by the plan of reorganization may have the terms of reorganization imposed upon them in a process known as a "cram down"). Typically, a company's day-to-day operations are largely unaffected throughout the process.

The Bankruptcy Code allows a debtor company to reject executory contracts (such as labor agreements!) That fact alone may explain part of the UAW's current willingness to amend its existing agreements and it also explains the UAW's sudden interest in political lobbying for government assistance.

Without very specific knowledge of GM's legal and contractual obligations it is, of course, impossible to predict with certainty what effect a possible bankruptcy would have— though it is very unlikely that day-to-day operations would be largely affected.

It is laughable to see all the media pundits and politicos make the wildly uninformed claim that a bankruptcy of one or all of the automakers would result in the immediate cessation of operations or unemployment of the entire workforce.

 

[R. Richard]

I see there is little understanding of the operation of The Bankruptcy Code here.

Under The Bankruptcy Code, for a period of time a company is given protection from its creditors in order to reorganize its affairs. If confirmed as "debtor-in-possession" by a Bankruptcy Court, the company files a reorganization plan which is very much subject to jockeying and negotiating by the various classes of company creditors. The Bankruptcy Code establishes the various priorities for creditors with liabilities for government payments (e.g., taxes) having first priority, followed by secured creditors, unsecured creditors, trade creditors and, finally, shareholders.

Actually, you have omitted one very important class. Employees owed wages are theoretically just behind the government. However, it's not unknown for the government to step aside and let the voters [I meant employees] have first priority.

 

[trysail]

Actually, you have omitted one very important class. Employees owed wages are theoretically just behind the government. However, it's not unknown for the government to step aside and let the voters [I meant employees] have first priority.

Remember— I'm not getting paid for the important public service that I provide around here!

I will merely point out that there is an important distinction between "accrued" wages and prospective wages ( particularly where executory contracts [ e.g., collective bargaining agreements ] are concerned and are likely to be rejected ). As you know, those are likely to become "history" when a large unionized company is the subject. The UAW has finally figured that out ( see Pan Am, Eastern, United, Delta, Texas International, TWA, Northwestern, etc., etc., etc. )

 

[rgraham666]

http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg

Hilarious!

 

[ishtat]

.

It is laughable to see all the media pundits and politicos make the wildly uninformed claim that a bankruptcy of one or all of the automakers would result in the immediate cessation of operations or unemployment of the entire workforce.


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Chapter 11 has been effective for a number of Airlines. Why might it not work for the Big 3? It would wipe out all Union agreements in one hit and allow pensions to be restructured. Not nice for the people involved but the requirement to produce a new (radically new) business plan would then be possible.

There is also something in it for the politicians - time plus the focus of attention will shift away from Congress and the government to the managers of the liquidation.

The Big 3 are already bust de facto it's just a question of how they are to be dismembered. A lot of people are going to be hurt, no maybe's.

 

[jeninflorida]

Our would is changing, Volvo will be sold to China

http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg

Hilarious!

 

[jeninflorida]

I'm not sure who is more out of touch...the UAW leaders...big 3 leaders, or the fools that ran enron. they shared the same boat...and in the end, its the worker that will be screwed

Remember— I'm not getting paid for the important public service that I provide around here!

I will merely point out that there is an important distinction between "accrued" wages and prospective wages ( particularly where executory contracts [ e.g., collective bargaining agreements ] are concerned and are likely to be rejected ). As you know, those are likely to become "history" when a large unionized company is the subject. The UAW has finally figured that out ( see Pan Am, Eastern, United, Delta, Texas International, TWA, Northwestern, etc., etc., etc. )

 

[rgraham666]

Well, if unions didn't exist the workers would have been screwed long ago. In fact they were.

Twelve hour days, seven days a week. Twenty four hour days on alternate Sundays when they changed shifts. A half a day off at Christmas! How generous!

If a worker wanted to work you lived in the company town where you paid luxury rents for slum housing. Oh wait, you didn't pay. They took it off your check. Along with other fees like for a non-existent library and schooling. And of course the worker had to shop at the company store. At prices that bankrupted them. And then the company would extend credit at usurious interest rates. Where do you think that line "I owe my soul to the company store," came from.

Anyone who complained or was even suspected of complaining was fired and blackballed.

And all this for only somewhere around twelve cents an hour.

As my favorite book on running a business points out, "The best way to avoid a union is to give your people the best deal you possibly can." Henry Ford knew this when he paid his workers enough that they could afford the car they were making.

Unfortunately most upper management closely resembles the feudal aristocracy or the Soviet Politburo in attitude. The people who worked got serious screwed under both those systems.

 

[trysail]

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Mr. Blagojevich to put his money where his mouth is. Mr. Obama, of course, now has the personal wherewithal to put his money where his mouth is and I have already opined above that justice would be served by placing Mr. Dodd in charge of GM.

( ETA: Well, this morning's news makes it appear that Mr. Blagojevich will be otherwise occupied for awhile. )
______________________

(Fair Use Excerpt)
Illinois Threat to Bank of America Is Dangerous
By David Mildenberg and Brian Louis

Dec. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich’s threat to halt the state’s dealings with Bank of America Corp. over a shut-down factory in Chicago extends a “dangerous” trend of politicians meddling with commerce, a former general counsel of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said.

Blagojevich, a Democrat, yesterday said the biggest U.S. retail bank won’t get any more state business unless it restores credit to Republic Windows & Doors, whose workers are staging a sit-in. John Douglas, an attorney with Paul Hastings Janofsky & Walker in Atlanta, said Blagojevich and Senator Christopher Dodd -- who called on General Motors Corp. to fire Chief Executive Rick Wagoner -- can’t tell companies how to run their business.

“This is a very dangerous thing,” said Douglas, who was at the FDIC from 1987 to 1989 and has since represented financial institutions including Bank of America. “There becomes an expectation that these government officials have some say over what the institution does,” he said in an interview...

The Illinois governor met Republic Windows & Doors employees who remained at the factory since Dec. 5, after Bank of America canceled a credit line. The members of the United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers Union have won support from politicians including President-elect Barack Obama, who said the 250 workers are justified in demanding benefits and pay.

“They’re absolutely right,” Obama, who gave up his U.S. Senate seat from Illinois last month, said over the weekend. “These workers, if they have earned these benefits and their pay, then these companies need to follow through on those commitments.”

Not Empowered

Bank of America isn’t empowered to tell a company how to manage its business, spokeswoman Julie Westermann said yesterday. Republic is unable to operate profitably in the current economy, she said.

“Bank of America has worked with the company and shared our concerns about the company’s situation and its operations for the past several months,” she said. “It is unfortunate that the company has been unable to reverse its declining circumstances.”

Robert Topel, a labor and economics professor at the University of Chicago, said it’s “just silly” that a governor or member of Congress would seek to “micro-manage” a business.

“What does Chris Dodd know about running an auto company?” Topel asked. “Is Bank of America supposed to pick and choose which line of credit they want to keep open based on political pressure? It’s not Bank of America’s obligation to make sure the employer has funds to pay its employees.”...

***​

 

[jeninflorida]

I agree that union's were needed, but not in today's world.

Well, if unions didn't exist the workers would have been screwed long ago. In fact they were.

Twelve hour days, seven days a week. Twenty four hour days on alternate Sundays when they changed shifts. A half a day off at Christmas! How generous!

If a worker wanted to work you lived in the company town where you paid luxury rents for slum housing. Oh wait, you didn't pay. They took it off your check. Along with other fees like for a non-existent library and schooling. And of course the worker had to shop at the company store. At prices that bankrupted them. And then the company would extend credit at usurious interest rates. Where do you think that line "I owe my soul to the company store," came from.

Anyone who complained or was even suspected of complaining was fired and blackballed.

And all this for only somewhere around twelve cents an hour.

As my favorite book on running a business points out, "The best way to avoid a union is to give your people the best deal you possibly can." Henry Ford knew this when he paid his workers enough that they could afford the car they were making.

Unfortunately most upper management closely resembles the feudal aristocracy or the Soviet Politburo in attitude. The people who worked got serious screwed under both those systems.

 

[jeninflorida]

Republic Windows & Doors - if the company has no money, what good will a sit in do? is this a private or public company?

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Mr. Blagojevich to put his money where his mouth is. Mr. Obama, of course, now has the personal wherewithal to put his money where his mouth is and I have already opined above that justice would be served by placing Mr. Dodd in charge of GM.

( ETA: Well, this morning's news makes it appear that Mr. Blagojevich will be otherwise occupied for awhile. )
______________________

(Fair Use Excerpt)
Illinois Threat to Bank of America Is Dangerous
By David Mildenberg and Brian Louis

Dec. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich’s threat to halt the state’s dealings with Bank of America Corp. over a shut-down factory in Chicago extends a “dangerous” trend of politicians meddling with commerce, a former general counsel of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said.

Blagojevich, a Democrat, yesterday said the biggest U.S. retail bank won’t get any more state business unless it restores credit to Republic Windows & Doors, whose workers are staging a sit-in. John Douglas, an attorney with Paul Hastings Janofsky & Walker in Atlanta, said Blagojevich and Senator Christopher Dodd -- who called on General Motors Corp. to fire Chief Executive Rick Wagoner -- can’t tell companies how to run their business.

“This is a very dangerous thing,” said Douglas, who was at the FDIC from 1987 to 1989 and has since represented financial institutions including Bank of America. “There becomes an expectation that these government officials have some say over what the institution does,” he said in an interview...

The Illinois governor met Republic Windows & Doors employees who remained at the factory since Dec. 5, after Bank of America canceled a credit line. The members of the United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers Union have won support from politicians including President-elect Barack Obama, who said the 250 workers are justified in demanding benefits and pay.

“They’re absolutely right,” Obama, who gave up his U.S. Senate seat from Illinois last month, said over the weekend. “These workers, if they have earned these benefits and their pay, then these companies need to follow through on those commitments.”

Not Empowered

Bank of America isn’t empowered to tell a company how to manage its business, spokeswoman Julie Westermann said yesterday. Republic is unable to operate profitably in the current economy, she said.

“Bank of America has worked with the company and shared our concerns about the company’s situation and its operations for the past several months,” she said. “It is unfortunate that the company has been unable to reverse its declining circumstances.”

Robert Topel, a labor and economics professor at the University of Chicago, said it’s “just silly” that a governor or member of Congress would seek to “micro-manage” a business.

“What does Chris Dodd know about running an auto company?” Topel asked. “Is Bank of America supposed to pick and choose which line of credit they want to keep open based on political pressure? It’s not Bank of America’s obligation to make sure the employer has funds to pay its employees.”...

***​

 

[R. Richard]

Republic Windows & Doors - if the company has no money, what good will a sit in do? is this a private or public company?

The company is a private company. The original owners sold out to new management, after the death of the founder. The new owners are in debt to BofA up to their eyeballs.

A sit in will do no good, unless the attention it gets will bring in outsiders to force BofA to pay money it doesn't owe.

The union leaders signed a contract that provides the workers with no protection if the company closes down.

 

[cloudy]

Well, if unions didn't exist the workers would have been screwed long ago. In fact they were.

Twelve hour days, seven days a week. Twenty four hour days on alternate Sundays when they changed shifts. A half a day off at Christmas! How generous!

If a worker wanted to work you lived in the company town where you paid luxury rents for slum housing. Oh wait, you didn't pay. They took it off your check. Along with other fees like for a non-existent library and schooling. And of course the worker had to shop at the company store. At prices that bankrupted them. And then the company would extend credit at usurious interest rates. Where do you think that line "I owe my soul to the company store," came from.

Anyone who complained or was even suspected of complaining was fired and blackballed.

And all this for only somewhere around twelve cents an hour.

Indeed...and this was a hundred years ago, and we now have laws in place that prevent this kind of thing.

At one time unions were necessary and did good things, but that time is a hundred years past, and all they do now is inflate wages to ridiculous levels - which we, the consumers, pay for in higher prices for goods - and keep incompetent workers on the job and getting paid because it's impossible to fire, or even discipline a union worker.

 

[rgraham666]

I agree that union's were needed, but not in today's world.

Indeed...and this was a hundred years ago, and we now have laws in place that prevent this kind of thing.

At one time unions were necessary and did good things, but that time is a hundred years past, and all they do now is inflate wages to ridiculous levels - which we, the consumers, pay for in higher prices for goods - and keep incompetent workers on the job and getting paid because it's impossible to fire, or even discipline a union worker.

And how long do you think it would be before those laws are taken off the books if unions didn't exist? How long would it take before some sadistic, power mad jackass realizes, "Hey! There's nothing to stop me from treating my workers like shit! And it's fun!" and proceeds to do so? What will protect your wages and living conditions? And what good will cheap goods do you if you haven't got the money to spend on them?

A 19th Century social structure can only support a 19th Century creation and distribution of wealth no matter how fancy the technology behind it is.

A more fundamental point is if you do away with unions you're doing away with one of the fundamental rights of democracy; the freedom of association. And damaging the right of free speech along with it. An individual can't speak as loudly as an organization. So individuals words will be drowned by the much louder voices of business organizations.

How long will the U.S. or any country last as democracies in such a situation?

 

[cloudy]

And how long do you think it would be before those laws are taken off the books if unions didn't exist? How long would it take before some sadistic, power mad jackass realizes, "Hey! There's nothing to stop me from treating my workers like shit! And it's fun!" and proceeds to do so? What will protect your wages and living conditions? And what good will cheap goods do you if you haven't got the money to spend on them?

A 19th Century social structure can only support a 19th Century creation and distribution of wealth no matter how fancy the technology behind it is.

A more fundamental point is if you do away with unions you're doing away with one of the fundamental rights of democracy; the freedom of association. And damaging the right of free speech along with it. An individual can't speak as loudly as an organization. So individuals words will be drowned by the much louder voices of business organizations.

How long will the U.S. or any country last as democracies in such a situation?

Right....so we'll keep paying assembly line workers $75 an hour until the company goes bankrupt from it, then they can make $0 an hour. Makes sense to me.

 

[Belegon]

Right....so we'll keep paying assembly line workers $75 an hour until the company goes bankrupt from it, then they can make $0 an hour. Makes sense to me.

Cloudy, he didn't say that.

There is such a thing as a moderate point of view.

I believe that the continued existence of unions can be a good thing. Their destruction could be a bad thing.

The idea that a union always has to hold the company hostage in every negotiation is a problem. They become more concerned about their won-loss record than about the real purpose for their existence. To better the conditions for the employees.

The institution is not the problem, anymore than the institution of the Presidency was the problem with W. It is the focus and behavior of the leadership that is the problem.