Beyond Words

[voluptuary_manque]

Let me guess: you don't have any kids, do you?

Every single person I've ever heard say something like this has, without fail, been young and childless. Try explaining to a two-year-old why, exactly, he can't stick a fork in an electrical outlet, or wander off, or run out into the horse pasture, or pick up that pretty snake. You can't reason with a toddler. JUST. CAN'T.

There are five kids in my family. We regularly got spankings if we deserved it. None of us is "violent." I have three children: the oldest will be twenty-eight this month and the youngest is eight. The oldest has her master's degree in social anthropology and is horrified by violence, yet she got her share of "corporal punishment" when she was younger. Next oldest just started college, and I had to literally make him stick up for himself when he was in grammar school, despite the fact that he's had his black belt in tai kwon do since he was twelve. I expect the youngest will be much like his older siblings.

What you've stated is a bunch of hogwash - sorry. BTW: I'm almost through with my master's in psychology, so I've heard those theories too. Don't believe a damn word of them.

My son's godfather has a Ph.D in clinical psychology. His belief is that physical punishment should be immediate, severe and rare. And he has two first class kids in their 30's as evidence. No, don't believe a damned word of foolish Scandinavian theories. Remember, they are the people who brought you . . . Vikings!

 

[epiphany65]

Let me guess: you don't have any kids, do you?

Every single person I've ever heard say something like this has, without fail, been young and childless. Try explaining to a two-year-old why, exactly, he can't stick a fork in an electrical outlet, or wander off, or run out into the horse pasture, or pick up that pretty snake. You can't reason with a toddler. JUST. CAN'T.

There are five kids in my family. We regularly got spankings if we deserved it. None of us is "violent." I have three children: the oldest will be twenty-eight this month and the youngest is eight. The oldest has her master's degree in social anthropology and is horrified by violence, yet she got her share of "corporal punishment" when she was younger. Next oldest just started college, and I had to literally make him stick up for himself when he was in grammar school, despite the fact that he's had his black belt in tai kwon do since he was twelve. I expect the youngest will be much like his older siblings.

What you've stated is a bunch of hogwash - sorry. BTW: I'm almost through with my master's in psychology, so I've heard those theories too. Don't believe a damn word of them.

You're right --I don't have any kids, but I still know right from wrong.

Since you're doing your Master's in psych. you know that not all psychologists agree on all treatments, theories or therapy. Jungians will argue with Freudians or Reichians all day. Psychology is part science, part art. My hogwash is believed by a good many respected psychologists and you should realize that even if you don't adhere to it or respect it. It's not like I'm just making this stuff up.

 

[cloudy]

You're right --I don't have any kids, but I still know right from wrong.

Since you're doing your Master's in psych. you know that not all psychologists agree on all treatments, theories or therapy. Jungians will argue with Freudians or Reichians all day. Psychology is part science, part art. My hogwash is believed by a good many respected psychologists and you should realize that even if you don't adhere to it or respect it. It's not like I'm just making this stuff up.

I never implied you were making it up. I was saying it doesn't work.

Come back once you have kids, and tell me how well that no-corporal-punishment thing is working for you with your two-year-old. I'll show you a child that people dread seeing come their way, I promise.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

MISTY

The kid wasnt supervised, so inadequate supervision is verified.

Feeding live animals to a crocodile is a bit extreme, but I've seen keepers feed crocs with fish-chickens-goats at the animal parks.

 

[epiphany65]

I never implied you were making it up. I was saying it doesn't work.

Come back once you have kids, and tell me how well that no-corporal-punishment thing is working for you with your two-year-old. I'll show you a child that people dread seeing come their way, I promise.

All I can say to try to refute that is that out of 3 siblings I was the only one that was never spanked -- not even once -- and my mother claimed that I turned out to be the best and most well-adjusted... many would disagree. When it comes to something like making sure a todder doesn't stick a fork in an electrical socket the parent bares responsibility to child-proof the house too. But this thread began with the actions of a 7 yr.-old, not a toddler. That's a whole other kettle of fish.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Let me guess: you don't have any kids, do you?

Every single person I've ever heard say something like this has, without fail, been young and childless. Try explaining to a two-year-old why, exactly, he can't stick a fork in an electrical outlet, or wander off, or run out into the horse pasture, or pick up that pretty snake. You can't reason with a toddler. JUST. CAN'T.

There are five kids in my family. We regularly got spankings if we deserved it. None of us is "violent." I have three children: the oldest will be twenty-eight this month and the youngest is eight. The oldest has her master's degree in social anthropology and is horrified by violence, yet she got her share of "corporal punishment" when she was younger. Next oldest just started college, and I had to literally make him stick up for himself when he was in grammar school, despite the fact that he's had his black belt in tai kwon do since he was twelve. I expect the youngest will be much like his older siblings.

What you've stated is a bunch of hogwash - sorry. BTW: I'm almost through with my master's in psychology, so I've heard those theories too. Don't believe a damn word of them.



Damn straight. My kids respect me, as well as love me, and they know exactly what life would be like if they even approached the idea of doing something like that.

Just had to respond to this.

I never had the opportunity to be a parent for more than about 6 hours. But I have to agree with you for the "Most"part cuz I had helped raise numerous nieces and nephews.

I also was the surrogate mother to my god daughter.

I can remember when she got sent home from school with a note cuz she had picked up a stick and struck a boy who had jumped in line for the slide at reccess.

Her father asked me to talk to her as he didn't know how to handle it.

I sat and talked with her and tried to explain to a 3.5 year old that striking another person with a stick is socially unacceptable.


A few day s aleter...I was out a bar with some coworkers and told them about the event. And my approach.


THEY LAUGHED THEIR ASSES OFF AT ME!!!!

"Trying to explain "socially unexectable" to a 3.5 year old? Girl...you should have whopped her ass and said...this is what happens when you hurt another person."

 

[cloudy]

Just had to respond to this.

I never had the opportunity to be a parent for more than about 6 hours. But I have to agree with you for the "Most"part cuz I had helped raise numerous nieces and nephews.

I also was the surrogate mother to my god daughter.

I can remember when she got sent home from school with a note cuz she had picked up a stick and struck a boy who had jumped in line for the slide at reccess.

Her father asked me to talk to her as he didn't know how to handle it.

I sat and talked with her and tried to explain to a 3.5 year old that striking another person with a stick is socially unacceptable.

A few day s aleter...I was out a bar with some coworkers and told them about the event. And my approach.

THEY LAUGHED THEIR ASSES OFF AT ME!!!!

"Trying to explain "socially unexectable" to a 3.5 year old? Girl...you should have whopped her ass and said...this is what happens when you hurt another person."

I would have laughed at you, too.

 

[TE999]

'Reasoned dialogue' is speedily forgotten when dealing with children's transgressions...their attention span is as long as the life of a mayfly.

A well placed swat or two on the kiester will not be forgotten...especially when it is infrequent and comes as a surprise.

My parents spanked me maybe 1/2 a dozen times when I was a child...I deserved every one and I remembered each one. I just did other things wrong next time.

 

[Misty_Morning]

I would have laughed at you, too.

Thank you for your support.

 

[SweetWitch]

Let me guess: you don't have any kids, do you?

Every single person I've ever heard say something like this has, without fail, been young and childless. Try explaining to a two-year-old why, exactly, he can't stick a fork in an electrical outlet, or wander off, or run out into the horse pasture, or pick up that pretty snake. You can't reason with a toddler. JUST. CAN'T.

There are five kids in my family. We regularly got spankings if we deserved it. None of us is "violent." I have three children: the oldest will be twenty-eight this month and the youngest is eight. The oldest has her master's degree in social anthropology and is horrified by violence, yet she got her share of "corporal punishment" when she was younger. Next oldest just started college, and I had to literally make him stick up for himself when he was in grammar school, despite the fact that he's had his black belt in tai kwon do since he was twelve. I expect the youngest will be much like his older siblings.

What you've stated is a bunch of hogwash - sorry. BTW: I'm almost through with my master's in psychology, so I've heard those theories too. Don't believe a damn word of them.



Damn straight. My kids respect me, as well as love me, and they know exactly what life would be like if they even approached the idea of doing something like that.

Well put, Cloudy.

Corporal punishment and a beating are two different things. A beating is violent, done in anger, done with hate. An angry, drunk man or woman, pissed at the world because of how his/her life turned out and taking that anger out on a child is committing an act of violence. A parent, concerned for the safety and the future welfare of his/her child and spanking said child to drive the point home, is teaching a lesson.

When I was young and caught doing something stupid and dangerous, my dad would take me aside and give me a very quiet and very firm lecture. He would punctuate that by telling me to bend over his knee. The steps I had to take to reach him were long, miserable and enough to make me want to run. It felt like the time between the start of the lecture and the eventual outcome was interminable. Then the swats rained down. 2 or 3 or 5, depending on the infraction.

I don't remember any pain, only that I had crossed the line and disappointed my father enough to warrant such action. It was all rather ceremonial and it left an impression. It wasn't violent and he never struck out of anger.

Because of those punishments, I learned not to play with matches because I might burn the neighbor's garage down. I learned not to throw things at my brother because he could be seriously injured. I learned not to swing garden tools at the neighbor boy because he could lose an eye. And I learned a lot about respect.

Now I have my own child. When she dashes out in front of a moving car or does anything else dangerous, she gets a 15 minute lecture that ends with a swat on the bottom. She doesn't dash in front of vehicles anymore, or play with matches, or run off without telling me where to find her or anything else that will scare 10 years off my life. The spankings are rare -- so far only 6 in her 7 years of life -- but she remembers them and knows there are certain lines not to cross.

Cloudy, you are right about a toddler and reasoning. How do you reason with someone who's only understanding is that he wants what he wants and no one is going to stop him? A swat, on a diapered butt, causes no harm, but it definitely gets the attention.

I've watched so many parents trying to talk sense into screaming, angry babies and wonder what the hell they're thinking. Not all occasions warrant a spanking, but allowing a small child to rule the household with tantrums is a recipe for disaster. Children need a firm hand.

 

[Misty_Morning]

'Reasoned dialogue' is speedily forgotten when dealing with children's transgressions...their attention span is as long as the life of a mayfly.

A well placed swat or two on the kiester will not be forgotten...especially when it is infrequent and comes as a surprise.

My parents spanked me maybe 1/2 a dozen times when I was a child...I deserved every one and I remembered each one. I just did other things wrong next time.

Agreed here as well.

Except my "spankings" were about half and half. Half of them I deserved and taught me valuable lessons. The other half were due to my younger brother "framing" me and taking delight in the fact that my mother would believe him without doubt. Unfortunately, my mother was not as wise as my father. And she would believe my younger brothers BS without any question...no matter how far fetched. ANd she did not spank. She beat.

The last beating, I can remember grabbing the belt and pulling her close to me and saying.....one day you are going to know the truth. Remember this!

She proceeded to beat the living shit out of me (the woman had issues). And then when I was about 20 years old I asked her if she remembered that event.

She said she did.

I asked ...and now you know the truth?

She said she did....but he is her son.

I looked at her with disgust and said....but I am your daughter.

 

[SweetWitch]

All I can say to try to refute that is that out of 3 siblings I was the only one that was never spanked -- not even once -- and my mother claimed that I turned out to be the best and most well-adjusted... many would disagree. When it comes to something like making sure a todder doesn't stick a fork in an electrical socket the parent bares responsibility to child-proof the house too. But this thread began with the actions of a 7 yr.-old, not a toddler. That's a whole other kettle of fish.

One can only child-proof a house so much. Outside the home, visiting other homes and such, a child has to learn not to do something dangerous. A 2- or 3-year old child is fearless and (don't kill me) stupid. They will try something because you tell them not to. It's a child's job to push the envelope and parent's job to draw the line and see to that junior doesn't cross it without consequences.

And you can't explain the rules to a child. You have to demonstrate the rules on occasion.

 

[SweetWitch]

Agreed here as well.

Except my "spankings" were about half and half. Half of them I deserved and taught me valuable lessons. The other half were due to my younger brother "framing" me and taking delight in the fact that my mother would believe him without doubt. Unfortunately, my mother was not as wise as my father. And she would believe my younger brothers BS without any question...no matter how far fetched. ANd she did not spank. She beat.

The last beating, I can remember grabbing the belt and pulling her close to me and saying.....one day you are going to know the truth. Remember this!

She proceeded to beat the living shit out of me (the woman had issues). And then when I was about 20 years old I asked her if she remembered that event.

She said she did.

I asked ...and now you know the truth?

She said she did....but he is her son.

I looked at her with disgust and said....but I am your daughter.

That, dear, is not punishment, not negative reinforcement, but abuse. There's a huge difference.

I'm sorry you had to live through that. It was wrong, as I suspect your mother never learned. Your anger is well-founded, but doesn't serve you.

You have my sympathy. Abuse is an ugly thing.

 

[TE999]

Agreed here as well.

Except my "spankings" were about half and half. Half of them I deserved and taught me valuable lessons. The other half were due to my younger brother "framing" me and taking delight in the fact that my mother would believe him without doubt. Unfortunately, my mother was not as wise as my father. And she would believe my younger brothers BS without any question...no matter how far fetched. ANd she did not spank. She beat.

The last beating, I can remember grabbing the belt and pulling her close to me and saying.....one day you are going to know the truth. Remember this!

She proceeded to beat the living shit out of me (the woman had issues). And then when I was about 20 years old I asked her if she remembered that event.

She said she did.

I asked ...and now you know the truth?

She said she did....but he is her son.

I looked at her with disgust and said....but I am your daughter.

Just because they provide the seed and give birth to us doesn't mean they aren't people...as stupid, venal, obtuse, mean, preferental and heartless as anyone else...we're just powerless under their thrall for what seems like an eternity...is it any wonder so many children run away from...or in some cases kill, their parents.

I'm sorry for your suffering, Misty.

 

[cloudy]

One can only child-proof a house so much. Outside the home, visiting other homes and such, a child has to learn not to do something dangerous. A 2- or 3-year old child is fearless and (don't kill me) stupid. They will try something because you tell them not to. It's a child's job to push the envelope and parent's job to draw the line and see to that junior doesn't cross it without consequences.

And you can't explain the rules to a child. You have to demonstrate the rules on occasion.

Amen.

You can childproof all you want, but unless you're willing to dress your toddler in football pads and a helmet every day, in addition to padding every single surface in your home, s/he's going to hurt him/herself - EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I've never really believed in "childproofing" beyond something like putting a fastener on the cabinet doors with cleaning supplies behind them. If you childproof, your child doesn't have the opportunity to learn anything - you've made the world too safe, too bland. Things will go horribly hard for them once they move beyond the safe sphere you've created if they haven't learned some things the hard way. Children like that are easy to spot in kindergarten: they're the ones that cry about every damn thing.

Believe it or not, toddlers are particularly sturdy. A fall that would have us laid up in bed for at least a week will elicit barely a sniff from them, if that much. Most of the time, when a toddler takes a tumble, they're only crying because they're getting the cue to cry from their over-anxious parent who comes running the minute they stumble.

True story: when my oldest boy was that age, everything on my plate was so much better than what was on his plate, even if it was exactly the same. He was constantly asking for a bite of my food, and I happily shared. One day, I was eating a sandwich for lunch, and had a jalapeno on the side like a pickle (I love peppers). He kept asking for a bite of it, and several times I tried to explain to him that he wouldn't like it; it was hot.

Finally, I just said, "Here you go...have at it. Get you a big ol' bite," and then sat there and watched him take a very large bite of a very hot pepper.

It didn't hurt him, not in any lasting way, but he learned that I didn't lie to him, not even about something as simple as food.

 

[epiphany65]

Agreed here as well.

Except my "spankings" were about half and half. Half of them I deserved and taught me valuable lessons. The other half were due to my younger brother "framing" me and taking delight in the fact that my mother would believe him without doubt. Unfortunately, my mother was not as wise as my father. And she would believe my younger brothers BS without any question...no matter how far fetched. ANd she did not spank. She beat.

The last beating, I can remember grabbing the belt and pulling her close to me and saying.....one day you are going to know the truth. Remember this!

She proceeded to beat the living shit out of me (the woman had issues). And then when I was about 20 years old I asked her if she remembered that event.

She said she did.

I asked ...and now you know the truth?

She said she did....but he is her son.

I looked at her with disgust and said....but I am your daughter.

That's horrible, and sadly all too common. I'm sorry to hear that you had to endure that.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Molly said it better than I could. In our attempts to prevent abuse we have those who would throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Everything is a question of balance, of judgement.

 

[Misty_Morning]

That, dear, is not punishment, not negative reinforcement, but abuse. There's a huge difference.

I'm sorry you had to live through that. It was wrong, as I suspect your mother never learned. Your anger is well-founded, but doesn't serve you.

You have my sympathy. Abuse is an ugly thing.

No, it wasn't negative reinforcement. And I know this, and I knew it then, and I knew the difference. But it is in the past. And in some odd way it has made me a better person...

Unlike others that may may act out negatively because of this, I chose to select dialog FIRST at all times.

But I do not disagree with appropriate corporal punishment.

But I must say that negative reinforcement does NOT have to include violence.

The most effective negative reinforcement ever administered to me........

I was 16...got busted at school for pot. No Cops...just a 2 day suspension. Telling my Dad was the second hardest thing I ever did. His reply?

After he asked me if I learned anything. He quietly said... I'm disappointed in you.


THAT cut me to the core.



BTW...the hardest thing I ever had to do....telling my Dad that I'm gay...that happened about 20 years leter.

 

[Guest]

Spanking isn't necessary for us. Never has been. Other forms of negative reinforcement work better.

My kids are so logical, they just see right through the situation, anyway.

(Mom, spanking child who is smaller than she - "I told you not to hit your brother! He's smaller than you and it's just not right!")



Far better disciplinary tactics for us are loss of privileges - internet, nintendo DS, time with friends, etc.

But only for a day. It's enough to get the point across.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Just because they provide the seed and give birth to us doesn't mean they aren't people...as stupid, venal, obtuse, mean, preferental and heartless as anyone else...we're just powerless under their thrall for what seems like an eternity...is it any wonder so many children run away from...or in some cases kill, their parents.

I'm sorry for your suffering, Misty.

It's OK...or I should say...I'm OK.

I have long believed that just because a woman spurts you out of her uterus..it doesn't make her a mother.

Thankfully, I am one that learned this without going "bad". But others were not as fortunate.

And again...it makes me wonder about the boy whose actions warranted this thread....

 

[SweetWitch]

Amen.

You can childproof all you want, but unless you're willing to dress your toddler in football pads and a helmet every day, in addition to padding every single surface in your home, s/he's going to hurt him/herself - EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I've never really believed in "childproofing" beyond something like putting a fastener on the cabinet doors with cleaning supplies behind them. If you childproof, your child doesn't have the opportunity to learn anything - you've made the world too safe, too bland. Things will go horribly hard for them once they move beyond the safe sphere you've created if they haven't learned some things the hard way. Children like that are easy to spot in kindergarten: they're the ones that cry about every damn thing.

Believe it or not, toddlers are particularly sturdy. A fall that would have us laid up in bed for at least a week will elicit barely a sniff from them, if that much. Most of the time, when a toddler takes a tumble, they're only crying because they're getting the cue to cry from their over-anxious parent who comes running the minute they stumble.

True story: when my oldest boy was that age, everything on my plate was so much better than what was on his plate, even if it was exactly the same. He was constantly asking for a bite of my food, and I happily shared. One day, I was eating a sandwich for lunch, and had a jalapeno on the side like a pickle (I love peppers). He kept asking for a bite of it, and several times I tried to explain to him that he wouldn't like it; it was hot.

Finally, I just said, "Here you go...have at it. Get you a big ol' bite," and then sat there and watched him take a very large bite of a very hot pepper.

It didn't hurt him, not in any lasting way, but he learned that I didn't lie to him, not even about something as simple as food.

My BIL doesn't let his children climb trees or pick up worms. Or get dirty. Or run and play. "They might get hurt," he says. Yeah? So what? If they don't get hurt when they're young, they go through life either terrified of everything or rebelling to the point of causing harm.

His two older children are terrified. They're afraid of their own shadows. They have no imagination. They have no personality but what their parents allow them to have, which ain't much.

The youngest though, he's going to break their hearts. He's a holy terror and twice the size of his older brother. He makes his own rules and his parents just keep trying to enforce the same kind of rules with him that "worked" for his siblings. I think he's going to teach them a thing or two when he gets some years on him.

That same BIL gave me all that crap they sell for child-proofing when I was pregnant. I remember shaking my head and tossing the items in a cabinet. Like Cloudy, I used one of the fasteners for the cleaning cupboard, but never bothered with the outlet covers, the foam pads for table corners or the other items.

I never had to worry about the princess sticking something in a power outlet because I taught her about consequences. She banged her head on the coffee table after I told her to not run in the house. She decided I was right about that one.

She's the best tree-climber in a neighborhood full of boys and out-runs the lot of them.

And she learned about hot peppers the hard way, too, but she loves them and would eat a jar of them, if I let her.

You cannot sanitize a child's world. It's just not realistic.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Spanking isn't necessary for us. Never has been. Other forms of negative reinforcement work better.

My kids are so logical, they just see right through the situation, anyway.

(Mom, spanking child who is smaller than she - "I told you not to hit your brother! He's smaller than you and it's just not right!")



Far better disciplinary tactics for us are loss of privileges - internet, nintendo DS, time with friends, etc.

But only for a day. It's enough to get the point across.

This is true negative reinforcement without distroying the "youth" of a child.

Sounds like you are a very good parent.

Now...we MUST discuss how to get them to be good republicans!


THAT WAS A JOKE FOR SSS ONLY!!!!

 

[Guest]

This is true negative reinforcement without distroying the "youth" of a child.

Sounds like you are a very good parent.

Now...we MUST discuss how to get them to be good republicans!


THAT WAS A JOKE FOR SSS ONLY!!!!

Pats you on your head.

With a kiss.

 

[SweetPrettyAss]

My son's godfather has a Ph.D in clinical psychology. His belief is that physical punishment should be immediate, severe and rare. And he has two first class kids in their 30's as evidence. No, don't believe a damned word of foolish Scandinavian theories. Remember, they are the people who brought you . . . Vikings!

And remember, the Vikings have no wins and four losses in Superbowls.

 

[SweetWitch]

No, it wasn't negative reinforcement. And I know this, and I knew it then, and I knew the difference. But it is in the past. And in some odd way it has made me a better person...

Unlike others that may may act out negatively because of this, I chose to select dialog FIRST at all times.

But I do not disagree with appropriate corporal punishment.

But I must say that negative reinforcement does NOT have to include violence.

The most effective negative reinforcement ever administered to me........

I was 16...got busted at school for pot. No Cops...just a 2 day suspension. Telling my Dad was the second hardest thing I ever did. His reply?

After he asked me if I learned anything. He quietly said... I'm disappointed in you.


THAT cut me to the core.



BTW...the hardest thing I ever had to do....telling my Dad that I'm gay...that happened about 20 years leter.

Well, at 16, one is too old for a spanking (at least in my opinion). By that time, what your father said was worse. It hits home hard.

Spankings should be rare, well-timed and never in anger. In this house, they're reserved for times when the child has done something dangerous and stupid. In a few months, she'll be too old for them to do any good anymore, so that part of her childhood is almost over. Good thing, too. I hate to give spankings, even though I have never delivered more than one or two little swats.

Most punishments involve confinement to her room for a set amount of time. Negative behavior (tantrums, bull-headedness, disobedience and the like) call for a little quiet time. For Mom.

Spanking isn't necessary for us. Never has been. Other forms of negative reinforcement work better.

My kids are so logical, they just see right through the situation, anyway.

(Mom, spanking child who is smaller than she - "I told you not to hit your brother! He's smaller than you and it's just not right!")



Far better disciplinary tactics for us are loss of privileges - internet, nintendo DS, time with friends, etc.

But only for a day. It's enough to get the point across.

How fortunate for you. My child usually responds well to loss of privileges for negative behavior and rewards for good behavior, but she's also a daredevil. She was three the first time I found her in the top of a tree. I nearly had a heart attack.

In that case, I smiled and told her it was time to come down. She did so without argument and I asked her not to climb so high next time. No punishment was warranted. But when I found her on top of the neighbor's garage a year later, I had myself a fit. That was her first swat, after I calmed down and talked to her about how dangerous it was. If she had hit the concrete below, I've little doubt I wouldn't have a child now.

Last month my mom had her for a weekend and took her and my nieces to the local pool. Mom was doing her quarter-hour head count and the princess was missing. After looking around, Mom looked up just in time to see her fly off the high-dive. I can tell you from experience the Mom yanked her out of that water fast enough to drain the pool. The princess learned not to scare the living shit out of grandma that day.

My sister had two sons. One pushes the envelope every chance he gets. The other knew better than to get caught. One got spankings. The other didn't. Both turned out to be stellar young men with the same values and same level of adjustment.