Below the belt

[deckardB26354]

View attachment 2409685

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/379006124874347726/

View attachment 2409686
https://www.mapsland.com/asia/palestine/detailed-map-of-palestine-1878-1927

Those maps aren’t even relevant now. Besides it doesn’t show the encroachment of the (illegal) Israeli settlements that are chipping away at whatever is left of “Palestine.”

 

[butters]

Those maps aren’t even relevant now. Besides it doesn’t show the encroachment of the (illegal) Israeli settlements that are chipping away at whatever is left of “Palestine.”

the relevance (i saw) was in the comparison between Palestinian land then to how we see it now

 

[Lazaran]

the relevance (i saw) was in the comparison between Palestinian land then to how we see it now

Some fairly consequential “stuff” was happening / happened that led to changes in the region…



The Arab’s / Muslim’s refusal to accept those changes as reasonable is what led to the major conflicts and drastic changes to the borders from the original British partition of mandatory Palestine. (If the Arabs / Muslims would have accepted Israel’s independence within the partitioned borders, and if they would have established an independent "Palestinian" state at the same time, instead of attacking the newly independent Israel, then things would look a lot different right now.)



I guess my whole positive position on Israel is based on its creation / existence being a reasonable proposition in light of the prevailing conditions of the times.

Israel needed to exist then.

Israel needs to exist now.

Full stop.

 

[butters]

i agree that Israel needs to exist.
so does Palestine.

 

[Politruk]

i agree that Israel needs to exist.
so does Palestine.

Neither should exist in its present form. Only a ONE-STATE solution makes sense.

 

[Lazaran]

i agree that Israel needs to exist.
so does Palestine.

So you agree the Arabs / Muslims should have been pursuing a peaceful two state solution (an independent Palestinian state) instead of attacking Israel since 1948.

 

[Politruk]

i agree that Israel needs to exist.
so does Palestine.

So you agree the Arabs / Muslims should have been pursuing a peaceful two state solution (an independent Palestinian state) instead of attacking Israel since 1948.

There is no PEACEFUL way for them to pursue a two-state solution. There never was.

 

[butters]

So you agree the Arabs / Muslims should have been pursuing a peaceful two state solution (an independent Palestinian state) instead of attacking Israel since 1948.

of course, as should have Israel... most recently, even when Israelis were calling for peace, and end to hostilities, the return of their family members and multiple nations including the U.S were involved in crafting terms for a ceasefire that netanyahu ignored after indicating he'd agree to them. Instead, Israel has continued to not just defend itself (with our help) but pursue hostilities into other, sovereign nations.

i have never held the position that Arab/Muslim nations should be aggressors in hostilities; at the same time, Israel can only claim 'defense' for attacks on its home ground and not as its own acts of aggression.

I will continue to criticise Israel for its excesses even as I support them in defending their own population in their own land. The two are not mutually exclusive. This is my position since (to me) it is clear that what has happened in Gaza, the West Bank, and moves into Lebanon are a direct escalation—even President Biden has had to warn Netanyahu just this week about resolving the humanitarian crisis in Gaza or face seeing the agreement between Israel and the U.S re arms brought into question.

My position on netanyahu's administration doesn't cancel my position on Iran, on hezbollah's & hamas' own crimes against humanity. But as a U.S ally, a nuclear power, Israel is not just some innocent victim in all of this.

 

[Lazaran]

of course, as should have Israel... most recently, even when Israelis were calling for peace, and end to hostilities, the return of their family members and multiple nations including the U.S were involved in crafting terms for a ceasefire that netanyahu ignored after indicating he'd agree to them. Instead, Israel has continued to not just defend itself (with our help) but pursue hostilities into other, sovereign nations.

i have never held the position that Arab/Muslim nations should be aggressors in hostilities; at the same time, Israel can only claim 'defense' for attacks on its home ground and not as its own acts of aggression.

I will continue to criticise Israel for its excesses even as I support them in defending their own population in their own land. The two are not mutually exclusive. This is my position since (to me) it is clear that what has happened in Gaza, the West Bank, and moves into Lebanon are a direct escalation—even President Biden has had to warn Netanyahu just this week about resolving the humanitarian crisis in Gaza or face seeing the agreement between Israel and the U.S re arms brought into question.

My position on netanyahu's administration doesn't cancel my position on Iran, on hezbollah's & hamas' own crimes against humanity. But as a U.S ally, a nuclear power, Israel is not just some innocent victim in all of this.

Please cite a single Israeli act of aggression (not a retaliation for / reaction to a hostile action by a target of an Israeli attack.)

 

[butters]

Please cite a single Israeli act of aggression (not a retaliation for / reaction to a hostile action by a target of an Israeli attack.)

really?

wow.

ok, i'm not going down this rabbit hole as i think i have often spoken out about their excesses only to see some people deny the statistics, the testimony of medical staff and humanitarian aid workers and so on.

 

[Lazaran]

really?

wow.

ok, i'm not going down this rabbit hole as i think i have often spoken out about their excesses only to see some people deny the statistics, the testimony of medical staff and humanitarian aid workers and so on.

I was not attempting to sea lion, butters.

Aggression, in geopolitical matters, requires an unprovoked act.

I can find no examples of Israeli state acts of “aggression”.

Israel has been on the defensive since its inception/ independence, responding to / retaliating for actual state sponsored aggression from its Arab / Muslim neighbors. If that Arab / Muslim aggression stops, then Israel’s retaliation stops.

Bottom line:

Justified retaliation is not aggression.

 

[butters]

how can anyone look at the destruction of Gaza, with all the civilian deaths and more, and label that 'justified'? I can't.

ok, so i'm walking away from these two threads again, at least comment-wise, for a few days or longer. It's become way too large, too likely to end in full-blown war in a broad arena.

 

[deckardB26354]

I was not attempting to sea lion, butters.

Aggression, in geopolitical matters, requires an unprovoked act.

I can find no examples of Israeli state acts of “aggression”.

Israel has been on the defensive since its inception/ independence, responding to / retaliating for actual state sponsored aggression from its Arab / Muslim neighbors. If that Arab / Muslim aggression stops, then Israel’s retaliation stops.

Bottom line:

Justified retaliation is not aggression.

You mean that retaliation is justified, but only if you’re Israel. Right, okay—I get it now.

 

[Lazaran]

You mean that retaliation is justified, but only if you’re Israel. Right, okay—I get it now.

The same offer is extended to you:

Cite an unprovoked act of aggression committed by the state of Israel against its neighbors.

The reason you will struggle to find one, is because Israel has been under perpetual siege from its Arab / Muslim neighbors since its inception / independence.

The Arab / Muslim world will not tolerate any non Arab / Muslim controlled state in the region. And as Islam expands, its intolerance expands with it - like most religions.

 

[Winter_Fare]

The same offer is extended to you:

Cite an unprovoked act of aggression committed by the state of Israel against its neighbors.

The reason you will struggle to find one, is because Israel has been under perpetual siege from its Arab / Muslim neighbors since its inception / independence.

The Arab / Muslim world will not tolerate any non Arab / Muslim controlled state in the region. And as Islam expands, its intolerance expands with it - like most religions.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...thern-gaza-by-israeli-offensive-against-hamas

 

[Winter_Fare]

The same offer is extended to you:

Cite an unprovoked act of aggression committed by the state of Israel against its neighbors.

The reason you will struggle to find one, is because Israel has been under perpetual siege from its Arab / Muslim neighbors since its inception / independence.

The Arab / Muslim world will not tolerate any non Arab / Muslim controlled state in the region. And as Islam expands, its intolerance expands with it - like most religions.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...killed-israeli-tanks-hind-rajab-b2494129.html

 

[Lazaran]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...thern-gaza-by-israeli-offensive-against-hamas

Considering that the war in Gaza is in retaliation for 10/7 and the continuing Hamas threat and hostage crisis, that example fails the challenge.

 

[Lazaran]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...killed-israeli-tanks-hind-rajab-b2494129.html

See my previous response.

 

[Winter_Fare]

The same offer is extended to you:

Cite an unprovoked act of aggression committed by the state of Israel against its neighbors.

The reason you will struggle to find one, is because Israel has been under perpetual siege from its Arab / Muslim neighbors since its inception / independence.

The Arab / Muslim world will not tolerate any non Arab / Muslim controlled state in the region. And as Islam expands, its intolerance expands with it - like most religions.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war

 

[Winter_Fare]

Considering that the war in Gaza is in retaliation for 10/7 and the continuing Hamas threat and hostage crisis, that example fails the challenge.

No. That is complete BS. You don't justify war crimes like that. One day of terrorism and hostage taking is not a free pass for these atrocities. Those killed in the examples I posted were none of them guilty of perpetrating the crimes of October 7th

 

[Winter_Fare]

See my previous response.

Honestly? These are separate examples of aggression spread over months. No war, however just, is a single act.

 

[Winter_Fare]

And you have nothing to say in the defence of butchering Hind Rajab and her sister.

 

[Lazaran]

No. That is complete BS. You don't justify war crimes like that. One day of terrorism and hostage taking is not a free pass for these atrocities. Those killed in the examples I posted were none of them guilty of perpetrating the crimes of October 7th

Honestly? These are separate examples of aggression spread over months. No war, however just, is a single act.

And you have nothing to say in the defence of butchering Hind Rajab and her sister.

Everything fails the challenge and basic objective scrutiny.

Besides 10/7 being the aggression that led to the war - which led to those tragic events - the reports you cited are unverified and coming out of a completely biased reporting environment.

 

[Winter_Fare]

Everything fails the challenge and basic objective scrutiny.

Besides 10/7 being the aggression that led to the war - which led to those tragic events - the reports you cited are unverified and coming out of a completely biased reporting environment.

Sooo much bias coming from you. The girls died in a massacre bullet ridden car, so did the paramedics that came to save them. This has been independently verified. They did nothing to deserve that awful prolonged terrifying death, and if you can entertain the notion that the whole war in Gaza, each individual act of barbarism, is a single act of justified retribution against Iranian state sponsored terrorism, then you really are a lost cause.

 

[Lazaran]

how can anyone look at the destruction of Gaza, with all the civilian deaths and more, and label that 'justified'? I can't.

ok, so i'm walking away from these two threads again, at least comment-wise, for a few days or longer. It's become way too large, too likely to end in full-blown war in a broad arena.

I can call it “justified”, because of Hamas’ actions / aggressions, which have provoked / contributed to the initial and continuing retaliation that has resulted in the destruction in Gaza.

Hamas (Iran) wins when people blame Israel.

Fuck that ^ !!!