Being a woman in geek culture

[Bramblethorn]

This is a brilliant metaphor and I would be more than happy to completely rip this off from you if you don't mind.

You're very welcome!

 

[Keroin]

Sorry I was away to miss the earlier bit with Mr. Feminism Is No Longer Needed Because All Women Have It Great Now!

This is the post I now send to any man who demands that I "prove" the existence of sexism.

Quit Fucking Asking Me Questions: A Refresher Course

I love this bit from that post:

If you're confused about how airplanes stay up, you don't fucking e-mail Richard Branson. And if you did, and you didn't hear back, you wouldn't assume that he isn't really committed to making airplanes stay up—or that airplanes aren't really in the sky. You'd assume that he's FUCKING BUSY.

And if the above-mentioned poster should pop in to lurk, or if any male doubts the veracity of the claims made here, I highly suggest they play their video games under a female pseudonym for awhile. That should open their eyes.

 

[Keroin]

Oh, and I also love this bit from Derailing for Dummies (quoted in the post linked previously).

By insisting you can only learn if they right then and there sacrifice further hours of time going over the same ground they have so often in the past, you may also make them give up and go away altogether, enabling you to win by default.

But further, you give the impression that you really want to learn, but they’re holding you back! That’s right, using this tactic you can suggest that full understanding is what you crave – you want to be a better, more connected and compassionate person – but it’s not your fault! Nobody ever gave you the education! And now that someone is here who is so obviously qualified, they’re denying you your Privilege® given right to have everything you want handed to you on a platter!

 

[Kyle2182]

And now for something completely different...

Good morning all. I really love the thread and as I do not have much to add to the current conversation (other than random face palming), I thought I'd share a heart warming story about geeks and girls. This thread has reminded me of something a while back when a female employee of a gaming company deviously gender-swapped their game poster to call out her un-intentionally not-as-sensitive-as-he-thought-he-was boss. Its a fun story, and I have to give props to the boss as he owned up to his ways. The link to the story is below but the posters are priceless.

Before:

After:

http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/post/50432219744/special-guest-edition-the-hawkeye-initiative-irl

 

[KoPilot]

i'd like to hear how Thor was filmed from the female gaze (i haven't seen Iron Man 3). It's not even entirely off topic...

I can't give a detailed analysis because I only saw it right after it came out, but I remember there being quite a bit of objectifying Chris Hemsworth's character, from numerous long, slow pans over him being shirtless, to the two female characters clearly showing sexual interest in him (and the best friend voicing it on several occasions), all the while Thor is blissfully unaware of the effect he's having or even that he's doing anything atypical. The women in the film have sexual agency and sexuality, while Chris Hemsworth is the one that is portrayed as being sexy. (A reversal of "women are sexy, men are sexual".) And to top it off, the women don't get the treatment themselves in any way-- they show an average amount of skin, the camera never ogles their bodies, they're never in physically compromising situations that have sexualized undertones.

Despite being a shitty movie, I'm glad I saw it just so I could say that I've seen an action flick that was made for women.

 

[Loverskitten]

Good morning all. I really love the thread and as I do not have much to add to the current conversation (other than random face palming), I thought I'd share a heart warming story about geeks and girls. This thread has reminded me of something a while back when a female employee of a gaming company deviously gender-swapped their game poster to call out her un-intentionally not-as-sensitive-as-he-thought-he-was boss. Its a fun story, and I have to give props to the boss as he owned up to his ways. The link to the story is below but the posters are priceless.

Before:

After:

http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/post/50432219744/special-guest-edition-the-hawkeye-initiative-irl

That is a great article.
"This little lady’s undermeats have been the open- and close- parens to my work world for the last six months."
Coffee through the nose hurts though!

 

[BrightlyGo]

I can't give a detailed analysis because I only saw it right after it came out, but I remember there being quite a bit of objectifying Chris Hemsworth's character, from numerous long, slow pans over him being shirtless, to the two female characters clearly showing sexual interest in him (and the best friend voicing it on several occasions), all the while Thor is blissfully unaware of the effect he's having or even that he's doing anything atypical. The women in the film have sexual agency and sexuality, while Chris Hemsworth is the one that is portrayed as being sexy. (A reversal of "women are sexy, men are sexual".) And to top it off, the women don't get the treatment themselves in any way-- they show an average amount of skin, the camera never ogles their bodies, they're never in physically compromising situations that have sexualized undertones.

Despite being a shitty movie, I'm glad I saw it just so I could say that I've seen an action flick that was made for women.

i remember those bits, yes. i didn't think about it that way, at the time, perhaps because he was such a very 'patriarchal' psuedo-medieval warrior character, the idea of women swooning over seems at odds with it being empowering, but, now that you point it out, i guess i can see it. Interesting.

Also, very different from the gender-swapping examples we've seen posted to the thread.

 

[Marquis]

I think the problem is no longer so much the idea that males are superior to females so much as that males are the default human beings. Therefore, whatever interest or vocation you can imagine, is primarily going to take on a male identity and be offered first to males.

Anything contrary is overly complex and hard to process.

 

[satindesire]

I think the problem is no longer so much the idea that males are superior to females so much as that males are the default human beings. Therefore, whatever interest or vocation you can imagine, is primarily going to take on a male identity and be offered first to males.

Anything contrary is overly complex and hard to process.

Overly complex. xD Maybe that's the problem! Haha!

Maybe it's because I was born female and have strongly identified as female my entire existence on this planet, but that mystifies me. I obviously realize that personal anecdotes don't equal hard data, but I've found that men and women aren't really all that different. We bleed, we want, we laugh, we watch movies and play with our kids, we play tennis and garden and run. We consider our futures. We regret our mistakes. To somehow believe that another human being is somehow inherently some kind of strange alien creature that you cannot relate to at all -just because- it's a different gender seems like the most ignorant, stupid mistake in the world.

 

[Marquis]

Overly complex. xD Maybe that's the problem! Haha!

Maybe it's because I was born female and have strongly identified as female my entire existence on this planet, but that mystifies me. I obviously realize that personal anecdotes don't equal hard data, but I've found that men and women aren't really all that different. We bleed, we want, we laugh, we watch movies and play with our kids, we play tennis and garden and run. We consider our futures. We regret our mistakes. To somehow believe that another human being is somehow inherently some kind of strange alien creature that you cannot relate to at all -just because- it's a different gender seems like the most ignorant, stupid mistake in the world.

And yet it's very common, isn't it? Some might even say it's a necessary element of the polarization that creates sexual tension.

Earlier tonight I watched a movie, Oblivion, the sci fi flick with Tom Cruise. There was a scene that made me smirk, where they were being chased by enemies while flying in their bubble ship. Tom is looking determined and focused and stressed and all that stuff, and his female beau is looking at him with great vulnerability and expectation, clearly interested in what he's going to do to save the day. I'm not sure why this scene in particular struck me as so nauseatingly cliche, because it demonstrates a dynamic that shows up in almost every action movie at some point. Hero and damsel.

It's easy. It sells. It's what the people want.

 

[satindesire]

Sorry I was away to miss the earlier bit with Mr. Feminism Is No Longer Needed Because All Women Have It Great Now!

This is the post I now send to any man who demands that I "prove" the existence of sexism.

Quit Fucking Asking Me Questions: A Refresher Course

I love this bit from that post:

If you're confused about how airplanes stay up, you don't fucking e-mail Richard Branson. And if you did, and you didn't hear back, you wouldn't assume that he isn't really committed to making airplanes stay up—or that airplanes aren't really in the sky. You'd assume that he's FUCKING BUSY.

And if the above-mentioned poster should pop in to lurk, or if any male doubts the veracity of the claims made here, I highly suggest they play their video games under a female pseudonym for awhile. That should open their eyes.

This frustrates me sometimes, too! People need to take responsibility and educate themselves. The resources are there. I did it, and I'm of completely average intelligence. Obviously if I can, any asshole with a keyboard can too.

I want to list the Derailment Tactics that our resident "Misogyny/Patriarchy Doesn't Exist!" friend here.

1. If You Won’t Educate Me How Can I Learn
2. You’re Being Hostile
3. You’re Being Overemotional
4. Don’t You Have More Important Issues To Think About
5. Unless You Can Prove Your Experience Is Widespread I Won’t Believe It
6. I Don’t Think You’re As Marginalised As You Claim
7. Who Wins Gold in the Oppression Olympics?
8. You’ve Lost Your Temper So I Don’t Have To Listen To You Anymore

That's right folks, in three pages, there was 8 whole Derailment Tactics. That's got to be some kind of record.

And yet it's very common, isn't it? Some might even say it's a necessary element of the polarization that creates sexual tension.

Earlier tonight I watched a movie, Oblivion, the sci fi flick with Tom Cruise. There was a scene that made me smirk, where they were being chased by enemies while flying in their bubble ship. Tom is looking determined and focused and stressed and all that stuff, and his female beau is looking at him with great vulnerability and expectation, clearly interested in what he's going to do to save the day. I'm not sure why this scene in particular struck me as so nauseatingly cliche, because it demonstrates a dynamic that shows up in almost every action movie at some point. Hero and damsel.

It's easy. It sells. It's what the people want.

I don't really think that's as true as it used to be. The fact that people are standing up now and saying "These kinds of cliches aren't realistic and they're harmful to gender relations!" means something.

Especially women these days, who are tired of constantly being portrayed as the prize that the hero gets when he saves the world. We aren't a fucking Cracker Jack prize...we're people, and we're tired of nerds that got convinced by "The Man" that they "get" us regardless of what WE want.

 

[satindesire]

http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html

5 ways modern men are trained to hate women:

#5

"Does it seem like men feel kind of entitled to sex? Does it seem like we react to rejection with the maturity of a child being denied a toy?

Well, you have to keep in mind that what we learn as kids is really hard to deprogram as an adult. And what we learned as kids is that we males are each owed, and will eventually be awarded, a beautiful woman.

We were told this by every movie, TV show, novel, comic book, video game and song we encountered. When the Karate Kid wins the tournament, his prize is a trophy and Elisabeth Shue. Neo saves the world and is awarded Trinity. Marty McFly gets his dream girl, John McClane gets his ex-wife back, Keanu "Speed" Reeves gets Sandra Bullock, Shia LaBeouf gets Megan Fox in Transformers, Iron Man gets Pepper Potts, the hero in Avatar gets the hottest Na'vi, Shrek gets Fiona, Bill Murray gets Sigourney Weaver in Ghostbusters, Frodo gets Sam, WALL-E gets EVE ... and so on.

Hell, at the end of An Officer and a Gentleman, Richard Gere walks into the lady's workplace and just carries her out like he's picking up a suit at the dry cleaner.

And then we have Star Wars, where Luke starts out getting Princess Leia (in The Empire Strikes Back), but then as Han Solo became a fan favorite, George Lucas realized he had to award her to him instead (forcing him to write the "She's secretly Luke's sister" thing into Return of the Jedi, even though it meant adding the weird incest vibe to Empire). With Harry Potter, J.K. Rowling played with the convention by having the beautiful girl get awarded to the sidekick character Ron, but she made it a central conflict in the story that Ron is constantly worried that, since Harry is the main character, Hermione will be awarded to him instead.

In each case, the woman has no say in this -- compatibility doesn't matter, prior relationships don't matter, nothing else factors in. If the hero accomplishes his goals, he is awarded his favorite female. Yes, there will be dialogue that maybe makes it sound like the woman is having doubts, and she will make noises like she is making the decision on her own. But we, as the audience, know that in the end the hero will "get the girl," just as we know that at the end of the month we're going to "get our paycheck." Failure to award either is breaking a societal contract. The girl can say what she wants, but we all know that at the end, she will wind up with the hero, whether she knows it or not.

And now you see the problem. From birth we're taught that we're owed a beautiful girl. We all think of ourselves as the hero of our own story, and we all (whether we admit it or not) think we're heroes for just getting through our day.

So it's very frustrating, and I mean frustrating to the point of violence, when we don't get what we're owed. A contract has been broken. These women, by exercising their own choices, are denying it to us. It's why every Nice Guy is shocked to find that buying gifts for a girl and doing her favors won't win him sex. It's why we go to "slut" and "whore" as our default insults -- we're not mad that women enjoy sex. We're mad that women are distributing to other people the sex that they owed us.

Yes, the women in these stories are being portrayed as wonderful and beautiful and perfect. But remember, there are two ways to dehumanize someone: by dismissing them, and by idolizing them."

 

[KoPilot]

It's easy. It sells. It's what the people want.

Saying stuff like this, stuff like "sex sells" is a reductive cop-out that, if you hold it up to any sort of scrutiny, completely falls apart. Two things are wrong with "sex sells": one, it actually translates to "men have buying power, and women don't like sex", and two there are mountains of men who are beginning to stand up and say "there is way more to our tastes than TnA" and women standing up saying "uh we like sex".

Safe =/= successful. If we're going to measure the truth of this in dollars, then the conservatism of the likes of Marvel and DC (I'm much more familiar with their antics than that of other industries) will be the end of them. A successful title shipped 100,000 books 20 years ago. Today? They're settling for 20,000, 15,000. And this is digital sales too, so you can't say that the internet is the culprit. The culprit is the fact that they've been bleating out "this is what the consumer wants!" for 20 years, completely ignoring the shrinking sales. The numbers only mean something to them when it tells them what they want to hear. Sales for Wonder Woman are going down? Well, it can't possibly be that the New 52 is losing traction across the board (because low Superman sales would never mean that people don't like Superman, it just means they need to change the story), it's obviously because female superheroes aren't popular. The simple fact of the matter is that putting out more material that isn't hostile to women, that aren't purely male gore fantasy stuff, would make them more money. Period. They don't want to see that.

 

[satindesire]

Saying stuff like this, stuff like "sex sells" is a reductive cop-out that, if you hold it up to any sort of scrutiny, completely falls apart. Two things are wrong with "sex sells": one, it actually translates to "men have buying power, and women don't like sex", and two there are mountains of men who are beginning to stand up and say "there is way more to our tastes than TnA" and women standing up saying "uh we like sex".

Safe =/= successful. If we're going to measure the truth of this in dollars, then the conservatism of the likes of Marvel and DC (I'm much more familiar with their antics than that of other industries) will be the end of them. A successful title shipped 100,000 books 20 years ago. Today? They're settling for 20,000, 15,000. And this is digital sales too, so you can't say that the internet is the culprit. The culprit is the fact that they've been bleating out "this is what the consumer wants!" for 20 years, putting out the same stuff, and yet... the numbers only mean something to them when it tells them what they want to hear. The simple fact of the matter is that putting out more material that isn't hostile to women, that aren't purely male gore fantasy stuff, would make them more money. Period. They don't want to see that.

I would get back into comics hardcore if I saw one that wasn't offensive to my gender. I left because I got tired of not seeing female characters that I could relate to. I'd come back if that issue was resolved.

 

[Marquis]

I don't really think that's as true as it used to be. The fact that people are standing up now and saying "These kinds of cliches aren't realistic and they're harmful to gender relations!" means something.

Especially women these days, who are tired of constantly being portrayed as the prize that the hero gets when he saves the world. We aren't a fucking Cracker Jack prize...we're people, and we're tired of nerds that got convinced by "The Man" that they "get" us regardless of what WE want.

I think people have been standing up to be heard for a long time. I didn't realize much progress had been made on this specific issue, but I'm probably just not a part of the conversation.

 

[KoPilot]

I think people have been standing up to be heard for a long time. I didn't realize much progress had been made on this specific issue, but I'm probably just not a part of the conversation.

It's slow and it's like pulling teeth, and this decade is seeing a backlash, but I like to think that progress is being made and the shitstains just won't go down without kicking and screaming.

 

[Marquis]

Saying stuff like this, stuff like "sex sells" is a reductive cop-out that, if you hold it up to any sort of scrutiny, completely falls apart. Two things are wrong with "sex sells": one, it actually translates to "men have buying power, and women don't like sex", and two there are mountains of men who are beginning to stand up and say "there is way more to our tastes than TnA" and women standing up saying "uh we like sex".

Safe =/= successful. If we're going to measure the truth of this in dollars, then the conservatism of the likes of Marvel and DC (I'm much more familiar with their antics than that of other industries) will be the end of them. A successful title shipped 100,000 books 20 years ago. Today? They're settling for 20,000, 15,000. And this is digital sales too, so you can't say that the internet is the culprit. The culprit is the fact that they've been bleating out "this is what the consumer wants!" for 20 years, completely ignoring the shrinking sales. The numbers only mean something to them when it tells them what they want to hear. Sales for Wonder Woman are going down? Well, it can't possibly be that the New 52 is losing traction across the board (because low Superman sales would never mean that people don't like Superman, it just means they need to change the story), it's obviously because female superheroes aren't popular. The simple fact of the matter is that putting out more material that isn't hostile to women, that aren't purely male gore fantasy stuff, would make them more money. Period. They don't want to see that.

Actually KoPilot, I think you are probably right, because I know I would love to see some compelling stories that challenge traditional gender roles and I can't be the only one that feels that way. The stories would be more compelling, more engaging....

I agree with you completely.

 

[KoPilot]

Actually KoPilot, I think you are probably right, because I know I would love to see some compelling stories that challenge traditional gender roles and I can't be the only one that feels that way. The stories would be more compelling, more engaging....

I agree with you completely.

You know, and I would love to be able to read the Liefeld-style campy male fantasy stuff without feeling gross and guilty because the vast majority of people who like that stuff live and die by it.

 

[KoPilot]

Overly complex. xD Maybe that's the problem! Haha!

Maybe it's because I was born female and have strongly identified as female my entire existence on this planet, but that mystifies me. I obviously realize that personal anecdotes don't equal hard data, but I've found that men and women aren't really all that different. We bleed, we want, we laugh, we watch movies and play with our kids, we play tennis and garden and run. We consider our futures. We regret our mistakes. To somehow believe that another human being is somehow inherently some kind of strange alien creature that you cannot relate to at all -just because- it's a different gender seems like the most ignorant, stupid mistake in the world.

I think that 'Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus' really dug itself deep down into the cultural subconscious.

This "men and women are different" thing is fascinating to me if looked at it through a pre-Christian lens (in societies that utilized a "seer"-class, and where the otherworld was a place that simply overlapped with our own), but in modern society it's just a laughable concept to me.

Men and women are different, sure, but all the evidence I've seen basically points to those differences being realistically insignificant. Everything about "the genders" we take for granted is socialization. I'm recalling a moment I had a few years ago, back when I was going through diagnosis and treatment of a reproductive disease, and realized that I could very well be infertile. I panicked and started crying on the phone with S, even though I knew in my bones I never wanted to get pregnant or be a parent. I was freaking out because it was something that, somewhere along the way, I'd gathered was the appropriate reaction-- that something about me was supposed to be broken and sad, and I found myself fearing the social repercussions rather than what it meant for me personally.

On a related note, I really want there to be studies on what nonbinary brains look like...

 

[Netzach]

I think the problem is no longer so much the idea that males are superior to females so much as that males are the default human beings. Therefore, whatever interest or vocation you can imagine, is primarily going to take on a male identity and be offered first to males.

Anything contrary is overly complex and hard to process.

This is true, and this is also why even in non-geek culture you get hit series and films set in New Yorks populated entirely by white people.

 

[Netzach]

Maybe I'm not remembering Thor much, but I remember loving the fuck out of it as stupid blockbusters go - and one of the things that struck me was the lack of major romantic plot point - it's entirely about how Thor has to function as a son and a brother - no wonder it made middle aged women's panties damp en masse.

The antithesis to Spider Man (vomit)

 

[Netzach]

I just solve the issue by reading Julie Doucette and Alison Bechdel and tons of Chris Ware which is about crying not sexualpolitick. This makes me a snob more than a geek.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I want to list the Derailment Tactics that our resident "Misogyny/Patriarchy Doesn't Exist!" friend here.

1. If You Won’t Educate Me How Can I Learn
2. You’re Being Hostile
3. You’re Being Overemotional
4. Don’t You Have More Important Issues To Think About
5. Unless You Can Prove Your Experience Is Widespread I Won’t Believe It
6. I Don’t Think You’re As Marginalised As You Claim
7. Who Wins Gold in the Oppression Olympics?
8. You’ve Lost Your Temper So I Don’t Have To Listen To You Anymore

Is there one for "You're not allowed to use the word "privilege" while discussing the concept of privilege"?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Is there one for "You're not allowed to use the word "privilege" while discussing the concept of privilege"?

yes, it's the same one that says that any discussion about the facts that racism exists is racebaiting.

8. You’ve Lost Your Temper So I Don’t Have To Listen To You Anymore

8.5 You've lost your temper because I say you have. It doesn't matter if you haven't really-- i don't have to listen to you.

 

[BrightlyGo]

I think the problem is no longer so much the idea that males are superior to females so much as that males are the default human beings.

Statistically, the mode average human being is female, so, oh well.

It's easy. It sells. It's what the people want.

It's what people are accustomed to.

I think that 'Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus' really dug itself deep down into the cultural subconscious.

Men and women are different, sure, but all the evidence I've seen basically points to those differences being realistically insignificant.

Men and women are different, of course. It's just funny how, for a while there, men convinced themselves that larger, more aggressive, and shorter-lived meant 'superior' - when clearly it means 'expendable.'

The thing is, people take 'men and women are different' to mean 'all men are the same' and 'all women are the same,' which is absolutely not the case. And, furthermore (what i think you mean by the differences being 'insignificant') that individual variation can completely eclipse the sex-sorted difference.