AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

[Djmac1031]

Put differently, we think sex work and sex workers deserve respect. That extends to depictions of them in media.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Where we disagree is the idea that @EmilyMiller 's story was disrespectful or harmful to sex workers simply because it was a fantasy approach as opposed to the more hyper realistic tone you would have appreciated more.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I wholeheartedly agree.

Where we disagree is the idea that @EmilyMiller 's story was disrespectful or harmful to sex workers simply because it was a fantasy approach as opposed to the more hyper realistic tone you would have appreciated more.

We're using the same words but mean different things. You are saying "it's a fantasy." We described the story as client-focused. It presents the fantasy of the client, the fantasy of sex work, as real. "Oh she's really into it!" or "I'll take her away from all this" or "i can beat this whore up, she's only a whore." Our assertion is that reinforcing that fantasy on any level is harmful to the men and women out there working.

Our stories sometimes reach tens or hundreds of thousands of eyeballs. We have influence, when we care to use it, and we think it's important (again, purposefulness)

 

[Djmac1031]

Our assertion is that reinforcing that fantasy on any level is harmful to the men and women out there working.

And I'll simply say i do not believe that was the authors intent, nor do I feel the story is as "harmful" in its intentions as the review makes it out to be.

 

[Bazzle]

To add to the conversation about sex workers.
I can't post them to Literotica as Laurel likes to try and put them in Fan Fiction. Which they are not.
But I write profiles for the smoking fetish models. They are all on my Reddit. I spend quite a bit of time trying to work out why these women are sitting there flogging their tits and arses for cash. Thinking that there must be something warmer to be doing of an evening.
90% of them it's a tale of woe of desperation for cash. They see themselves as *almost* prostitutes. But they have all the issues of possession and attachment. Men think they can throw more cash to get them to dance their tunes. When ultimately they still need to do cook their child's dinner and do the bedtime.
I am all for helping and promoting those who are struggling and needing the cash.

 

[AG31]

Read me for filth.

This has always puzzled me. Could you give me a couple of examples of what constitutes "filth" as contrasted with "not filth" in a site dedicated to erotica?

Might you take the time to look at some of my stories (very explicit BDSM) and tell me if they're filthy? If not, why not?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Also, let's be clear that this is not a binary. A realistic depiction does not mean a depiction that is negative, or unsexy, or unfun, or spends time wallowing in the fiscal woes that are often, tragically, the impetus for sex work.

@HollyLoriAnnalee has an incredible story, The Christmas In July Luau, about sex work, where the character has an absurdly high sex drive. All the same details I mentioned are there, and the character is bored to tears by them. It is a pelvis-shatteringly intense work.

These are not mutually exclusive concepts. The reality and fantasy of sex work are able to co-exist peacefully, and the story can flourish for the effort.

 

[AG31]

No one needs to defend me. People are entitled to their views and to how they express them. No one has done anything against forum rules to me.

Just to be clear, I haven't felt that I've been defending you. I've been making a case for all of us feeling free to write fantasies without going through a reality check.

 

[Devinter]

We're using the same words but mean different things. You are saying "it's a fantasy." We described the story as client-focused. It presents the fantasy of the client, the fantasy of sex work, as real. "Oh she's really into it!" or "I'll take her away from all this" or "i can beat this whore up, she's only a whore." Our assertion is that reinforcing that fantasy on any level is harmful to the men and women out there working.

Our stories sometimes reach tens or hundreds of thousands of eyeballs. We have influence, when we care to use it, and we think it's important (again, purposefulness)

Whilst this is obviously your review thread and you can proceed in any manner you see fit, it's objectively difficult to know where to draw the line with this particular argument. Essentially, just about every story on Lit could be considered harmful in some ways to someone in that case - sometimes with more extreme potential backlash than in other cases, of course.

But let's take the entire Voyeurism category for instance; if we assume that reinforcing that type of fantasy leads to changed perspectives in the real world, then this would mean every story in that category contributed to an increase in "Peeping Toms"? Any violence occurring anywhere in any category leads to increased violent behaviour in the real world? The entire NonCon category would be deeply disturbing in that case. But not only that; it would mean that we as writers of fictional stories need to be held accountable for some of it, since we're contributing to reinforcing certain fantasies, tropes, stereotypes, and so on. And I cannot look at the world that way; the responsibility of staying informed on how the world actually works shouldn't fall on those who write books, create TV-series, and so on. It must fall on the individual. Otherwise, the scopes of what we could actually create would be ridiculously narrow.

Personally, I think that what transpired is that the topic of sex work in particular hit a nerve - at least when paired with the 'slice of life' comment - and caused an emotional reaction.

 

[Omenainen]

Personally, I think that what transpired is that the topic of sex work in particular hit a nerve - at least when paired with the 'slice of life' comment - and caused an emotional reaction.

Have you read the story? What do you think the story was about?

 

[Devinter]

Have you read the story? What do you think the story was about?

I did not read the story. But my argument isn't related to any particular story. It could be applied to any story.

There's also a chance that I could be projecting, of course. Fact of the matter is that sex work is a sensitive topic, and that sex workers are often vilified and demonized, and I think that many of us in society are sick and tired of that. We want it to change. Therefore, whenever it's portrayed in a less-than-positive / realistic / optimal way in any form of media, that can feel tiresome and be met with a negative emotional reaction.

 

[lavendersilk]

This has always puzzled me. Could you give me a couple of examples of what constitutes "filth" as contrasted with "not filth" in a site dedicated to erotica?

Might you take the time to look at some of my stories (very explicit BDSM) and tell me if they're filthy? If not, why not?

"READ ME" is a slang term started in African-American gay culture. It means "tell me how you really feel..." You probably knew that part...

"FOR FILTH" means to be as brutal as possible: as if one were dragging me through the mud, thereby getting me "filth"-y.

This is just something I have picked up from watching, arguably too much, Rupaul's Drag Race and Paris is Burning.

Just Google it. I'm probably wrong...


I may start reading your stories after I have finished @EmilyMiller 's.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

We're using the same words but mean different things. You are saying "it's a fantasy." We described the story as client-focused. It presents the fantasy of the client, the fantasy of sex work, as real. "Oh she's really into it!" or "I'll take her away from all this" or "i can beat this whore up, she's only a whore." Our assertion is that reinforcing that fantasy on any level is harmful to the men and women out there working.

Our stories sometimes reach tens or hundreds of thousands of eyeballs. We have influence, when we care to use it, and we think it's important (again, purposefulness)

I'd say you just brought @SimonDoom upon yourself

This is an interesting debate here but I believe this isn't about Em's story anymore; it is more about the way we see sex work and the way we see the real-world repercussions of the stories we publish. I think this interesting subject warrants a new topic rather than clogging your story review thread. Just a thought.

 

[AlinaX]

The apostrophic phones and broken sentences are very distracting.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I've now read @EmilyMiller story.

I saw one stray semi colon which I would put 1 cents on being a Microsoft word correction?

Some examples I noticed:

An impressive building, if in a neighborhood that had seen better days; much like a lot of the city.
It now stood in splendid isolation, its brick walls overlooking hand car washes, overpriced parking lots, and guys who could get you whatever you wanted; so long as purity of product was of little concern.
There was a slight musty smell to the place; as if the outside air was seldom admitted.

The main use of semicolons is to separate two independent clauses. "Independent clause" means that it functions grammatically as a complete sentence.

"Much like a lot of the city", "So long as purity of product was of little concern", "As if the outside air was seldom admitted" - these aren't full sentences, so a semicolon doesn't work here. These should just be commas.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'd say you just brought @SimonDoom upon yourself

This is an interesting debate here but I believe this isn't about Em's story anymore; it is more about the way we see sex work and the way we see the real-world repercussions of the stories we publish. I think this interesting subject warrants a new topic rather than clogging your story review thread. Just a thought.

This is an argument I have been having with @SimonDoom since at least 2018. We have been around and around at this central issue more than once, and we do not agree by a matter of degrees.

I suspect that, at least on some level, our more "be purposeful" stance was part of the impetus for him starting his own review thread. We shouldn't be the only game in town (a fact that I have often lamented). There is no such thing as an unbiased opinion. We have ours. We're not shy about them, though I like to think we are at least consistent.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This is an argument I have been having with Simon since at least 2018. We have been around and around at this central issue more than once, and we do not agree by a matter of degrees.

Well, I had that debate with him as well, although it was about the impact of rape stories on real life. I do lean towards liberties in fiction, but in this particular case, there was some evidence being presented in a form of a study that pointed towards real-life rapists being incentivized by reading sexualized rape fiction, such as the one we have here on Lit. In such cases, I argued that we should be responsible and restrict our imagination, assuming that the claim from the mentioned study gets confirmed beyond reasonable doubt.

I suspect that, at least on some level, our more "be purposeful" stance was part of the impetus for him starting his own review thread.

Wait, Simon has a review thread?! Where? I've never seen his reviews popping up anywhere.

 

[Omenainen]

Wait, Simon has a review thread?! Where? I've never seen his reviews popping up anywhere.

That’s because he folded before ever giving a single review.

Seriously, anyone else willing to put up shop to do what we do is welcome to do so. There’s plenty of demand especially for more fluffy and positive-only approach.

 

[AlinaX]

I lack the patience to read other people's stories - which is funny, given how much time I spend editing them.

 

[AG31]

I did a sex worker story @Omenainin

I wrote it several years ago. It is cringe worthy at times to myself. Have fun picking it apart. Read me for filth. It is my kink.

Is a sex worker story an example of your filth?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Well, I had that debate with him as well, although it was about the impact of rape stories on real life. I do lean towards liberties in fiction, but in this particular case, there was some evidence being presented in a form of a study that pointed towards real-life rapists being incentivized by reading sexualized rape fiction, such as the one we have here on Lit. In such cases, I argued that we should be responsible and restrict our imagination, assuming that the claim from the mentioned study gets confirmed beyond reasonable doubt.

I would encourage you to read the story yourself, if you have time. The second client in particular rubs up against exactly what we're talking about here.

The fundamental problem we have is that rape is potentially underreported among sex workers. In theory they signed up for this, but when a client goes too far it's not unreasonable to assume the safest thing they can do is play along, get through it. Getting paid, at that point, is secondary to getting out alive, but this story treats this exact character as perfectly fine. It condones him by not calling him out. It justifies his boundary crossing by virtue of her being into it, accepting his money, and agreeing to come back for more.

It's harder to have this conversation (what constitutes a dangerous portrayal of sex work and client behavior) with someone who only, sometimes, respects the numbers that a study produces if said study has rigor and a sizeable pool of interviewees. That's not going to happen when the entire business is criminalized.

I feel like we have reasonable conclusions (this story in particular is dangerous, and stories should be mindful around this topic) on this even without study data, and once the second client demonstrated that this story would forgive dangerous behaviour we stopped giving AHDN the benefit of the doubt.

 

[lavendersilk]

Is a sex worker story an example of your filth?

Hey. Feel free to DM me if you want to chat. You can pick my brain.

 

[SimonDoom]

@EmilyMiller
Link

If it starts with And or But, it’s not a sentence that stands on its own.

This isn't true at all. This is an Old Wive's Tale. It is almost universally accepted by editors and style guides that sentences can begin with "and" or "but." See Chicago Manual of Style sec. 5.203 (17th ed.): "In fact, a substantial percentage (often as many as 10 percent) of the sentences in first-rate writing begin with conjunctions."

I generally agree that Emily overuses non-sentence phrases in place of sentences. Some of that is fine, but I think there's a bit too much of it. But it seems most of the time like a deliberate style choice rather than a failure to grasp grammar and style conventions. It's not the choice I would make but I don't see it as a big problem.

You also don’t use semicolons correctly.

You don't provide an example of her incorrect usage. There were five instances of semicolon use on the first page. 1 and 5 were, I thought, borderline but OK. 2-4 were incorrect.

Example 3 on page 1: "It now stood in splendid isolation, its brick walls overlooking hand car washes, overpriced parking lots, and guys who could get you whatever you wanted; so long as purity of product was of little concern." That should be a comma, not a semicolon.

It’s okay for the first draft to read “I don’t think anyone can top that, and I’m not sure that I even want to try, but can you hold me, I want to be held?” A good second step is to go through and chop it in pieces like done here. The third should be to go through again and end up with actual sentences. For example: “I don’t think anyone can top that, and I’m not sure that I even want to try. Can you hold me? I want to be held.”

It's DIALOGUE, for Pete's sake. There is no requirement whatsoever in fiction that dialogue must conform to grammatical or stylistic conventions. The only requirement is that it sound like something a real person might actually say out loud. That's the only basis upon which you can properly critique this passage, and you don't do that at all. On that test, which is the only one that matters, she did fine. The one mistake she made is she should have a question mark after the penultimate sentence and a period after the last one, instead of vice versa.



I'm not going to get into my response to the criticism of the story for its alleged lack of realism, except to say that I COMPLETELY disagree with the criticism, and for reasons that AwkwardMD accurately alludes to. There's a fundamental difference between us in our philosophy about how to critique stories, and that's fine. But since this isn't my thread and both AwkwardMD and Omenainen are completely open about how they handle the critique of stories, nobody who submits a story here can claim that they're not on notice. Ya'll know what you're going to get.

And to @AwkwardlySet's point -- yes, I started my own review thread, about 17 months ago if memory serves me right, and I haven't written one damn review. Not one. Maybe I'll get back to doing my own reviews, but until I do I'm not going to muck up somebody else's review thread on this story more than I already have.

 

[AG31]

Hey. Feel free to DM me if you want to chat. You can pick my brain.

Nah, I don't want to chat. I just want to see an example of what you think is filth. Or what anyone thinks is filth.

 

[lavendersilk]

Nah, I don't want to chat. I just want to see an example of what you think is filth. Or what anyone thinks is filth.

You should start your own thread, love.

 

[AlinaX]

I'm no stranger to starting sentences with 'and' and 'but', but how it impacts the rhythm of the text needs to be considered. The same goes for semi-colons; the way they are used here is not quite wrong, but not quite right either, and it's distracting.

This story itself has an odd rhythm throughout, as if the author isn't really engaged with the subject. Writing about sex work often hits the problem that the sex itself is routine and without passion. There's no easy eroticism in it.

But we are here to write erotic stories. There needs to be something that excites the senses and sparks the imagination. Something more than routine and illogical choices.