AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

[LdyHoneybee]

That's not weird. I would argue (without evidence) that most people only ever go far enough with their language studies to know what correct "sounds like." Enough to get through spoken conversation. The written word has to stand up to a little more scrutiny, and its not until one tries writing that the difference becomes more apparent.

"What do you mean? Of course you use an apostraphe for  it  when it's possessive."

- Me, 7 years ago

It has been observed, interestingly, that most English speakers tend to fall naturally into the iambic rhythm when they speak. I suppose that is the reason that so many people do not notice that every play that Shakespeare ever wrote (with the exception of a few passages spoken by children or insane people) is written primarily in unrhymed iambic pentameter. I tend to “hear” in dactyls like my tag line (which I did not write). It is hard to describe though: kind of like riding a bike down a high long hill. It gets faster and faster until it feels like flying.

 

[txblush]

Hi longtime member here and after a long dry spell I'm back to writing. I'd greatly appreciate feedback on my first story.

https://literotica.com/s/vicinity-2

 

[AwkwardMD]

@burgwad
Ingrid


I had said, in the initial post for this thread, that when stories get above 10 pages I’m just gonna read some of it to get the gist. I did that. I read about a quarter of this story. Omen read the whole damn thing, all sixty six thousand-ish words, and ultimately the stuff that I found to talk about were mostly continued throughout. I missed out on some plot twists, but it wasn’t anything that the tags hadn’t given me a good idea was coming anyway.

The first thing we’re gonna talk about is the writing. On the whole, the writing was really clever. There were a lot of wonderful little moments of writerly flourish that added some whimsy, or made me smile, or painted a picture. Moments that added other textures to the experience. You have a gift, and I hope you continue to nurture that.

There were also a significant handful that fell flat. The one that comes to mind is “If he’d had a word for it, he would have had a word for it.” This is giving the game away, that you are Will. For most readers, a third person perspective is implying a wiser narrator with the perspective to frame things that the POV cannot. That curtain has been drawn back, now, and we can all see the little man sitting on the stool.

You are trying too hard. Let these moments of brilliance come as they come. You had plenty of them. I laughed out loud on more than a few occasions. I think CSI Miami gave some people the impression that you need to be able to deliver a stinger that really makes Robert Plant scream yeah!! at the top of his lungs before every commercial break, or every 8 minutes of screen time, but literature has a much longer gestation time. Ingrid is… busy with these moments.

Experience will give you the patience to find a more natural rhythm, and the wisdom to look at something you just wrote that is complete shit and say “Oh, no, that’s complete shit. Get rid of that.” I say this as someone who routinely writes complete shit, and says “Oh, no, that’s complete shit. Get rid of that.” It’s not an indictment of you or your writing.

The second thing we’re gonna talk about is the scope, which… is lacking. On many levels. There’s micro levels, where some lines of dialog are overly explain-y. You could say the same thing with 10 fewer words. There’s small levels, where some conversations go in circles for far too long. There’s moderate levels, where some scenes go on for too long. There’s meta levels where you have these nonsense chapters that are, in actuality, dividing up nothing. There were moments within this “act” that would have made good natural dividing points for actual chapters, but the story kept right on trucking, and then the end of the “act” feels completely arbitrary and senseless.

This story doesn’t have an arc so much as it has momentum. It is being propelled forward, which is not the same as having a story that goes somewhere or has anything to say. Those latter two are something that comes with scope. Knowing where you’re going. Knowing what you’re trying to say. Ingrid is flush with “more”, and I don’t really think that’s a good thing.

It’s definitely not a good writer thing, although the incest category generally appreciates “more”. It is a hungry section of the website that will consume everything you throw at it, no matter how bloated and fatuous, and the comments section will still be lousy with “Oh god I loved it when will you write more?” Some Lit categories, incest among them, tend to vote with their orgasm rather than their head or their heart.

Clarification: I would not use the words ‘bloated’ or ‘fatuous’ to describe Ingrid, but there is certainly some amount of bloat that I would have hacked out with a sharp red pen if the editing were in my hands.

This is the point where I drop the disclaimer that what we are trying to do with our feedback is to help people become better writers, in the general sense, because writing is extremely good for our mental health, and a great outlet for creativity, etc etc. Sometimes, well written stories don’t do well because they butt up against the various unspoken rules of Lit (for example, which kinds of characters/relationships are allowed to show up in which categories), and at a certain point you will have to make a choice about which kind of successful you want to pursue. There are no wrong choices. Many Lit authors write things that are technically bad but go over like gangbusters, and they get the admiration/adulation/support that they need to feel whole, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Speaking of incest…

Let’s be clear. This story is a vehicle for the kink. It’s cleverly written, but it exists purely for the kink. It’s not trying to say anything, which, again, is fine, but I feel like even within that narrowed purpose, this story isn’t trying that hard. Ingrid herself is just too hot. Nobody can resist her, not even her mother, father, and brother. It’s her only defining feature. Conversations with her do not paint her as someone with any special kind of intrigue or allure. Ingrid is down to fuck, and that’s it. The whole story, all 65,800(ish) words are rooted there, and that, my friend, is shaky ground.

Sex with Ingrid doesn’t make sense except within the bubble of the Incest category where sex with family members is a given. At best, Ingrid is a walking personification of all the kinks you like (feet, pits, free spirited, watersports, etc). She is not a person. The mom is not a person. Will is, but that’s par for the course for a male author and a male POV. I’m not trying to do a feminism here, but I do think it’s worth pointing out when stories that are ostensibly about women (It’s called Ingrid) only feature two dimensional caricatures whose only purposes are to be lusted after and obtained. I don’t think this was intentional, but it rarely is.

It is possible to have a character whose allure and desirability is self-evident through their actions and words, rather than the narrator pulling the reader aside and assuring them that yo, her tits are 11 out of 10 or his dick be like whoa. In my experience, readers respond well to being given the opportunity to discover these things on their own. Giving a character Big Dick Energy is much more nuanced and interesting than starting your story with a scene in front of a mirror with a tape measure in hand.

Who is Ingrid? After 65,800(ish) words, I don’t feel like we know, and that’s a shame.

Lastly, I want to wrap all this up by talking about my writing theory;

“Everything is a tool, and those tools are used to build a memory”

Specifically, I want to talk about your use of flashbacks at the beginning of the story as a shortcut to try and explain to us who Ingrid is. This is not what a flashback is for. It is not a tool for shoveling backstory at us to get around doing the storytelling in the present. Using flashbacks like this has hampered your story.

You have done the theoretical work of explaining some of who Ingrid, and I’m sure that in your mind there is a more complex vision of her, but that doesn’t come across on the page. I think that the flashbacks and the asides, and the entire first 3500 words of this story, does a disservice to the rest of the story. The rest of the story was counting on a foundation, and it isn’t there.

Tools have specific uses. Flashbacks are generally most useful when being used to expand the reader’s understanding of a situation, which they already thought they knew, in such a way that it retroactively explains the actions of a character who really did know everything (because they were there). Flashbacks are not a way to dump information you otherwise don’t know how to include.

Obviously, there are always exceptions. Situations to bend or break the use of a tool. My advice is always to learn to use them correctly first before you go trying to reinvent them.

I know this was kind of negative, so hang onto this: you have a natural talent for writing and turns of phrase, the kind of thing that really can’t be taught. You need some restraint, either self-imposed or through an editor/beta reader you trust, but that comes with experience.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I was only planning on posting the review for Ingrid tonight, but something came up that struck me as noteworthy, so I want to share it.

Earlier in this thread, and elsewhere in this forum, I shared a video talking about the writing of the first season of True Detective. Excellent video, and an excellent breakdown on dialog, character motivations, and 'what bad writing looks like'.

So, tonight, I'm doing the dishes, as you do, and I see a recommendation on Youtube about The King In Yellow, and this starts setting off alarms in my head. The King In Yellow was a background element to the first season of True Detective, which I still hold up as some of the finest screen writing I've ever come across.

Here is that video

I will, however, share a TL;DR quote from the 13 minute mark from True Detective creator and writer Nic Pizzolatto.

The idea of magic words has always felt misunderstood to me. The magic is not in the words themselves, or any particular word, because they are, after all, empty vessels. The magic is only ever using the right words the exact right way. The secret knowledge lies in arranging, say, the twenty-six symbols of our English alphabet into a configuration which reliably produces an intended effect upon the audience, perhaps and even especially against that audiences wishes—configurations most commonly categorized as story, poem, lyric, or play. Then there's no end to the capabilities of the language, and its power over human beings, its ability to engender the most overwhelming emotional states. Put words to music, and the entire world can move.

Be purposeful, and stay frosty.

 

[burgwad]

All the stuff you said.

A really phenomenally deep, detailed, dead-eye review, of which I am not worthy. Thank you? Feels insufficient. Holy shit what a lovely surprise comes closer. I'm in a constant uphill climb to get better at writing. Feedback like this is just, mm, so delicious, so nutritious, MM. I smack my lips.

I have absolutely nothing to say in my defense, either, by the way. Ingrid is a post-hoc monstrosity. I wanted to try my hand at erotica, I needed practice, and so I practiced a "chapter" at a time. The results were okay, palatable enough to revise a little and share.

Let's zero in on the third person thing for a sec. Omniscient third (as opposed to close third, right?) is such a good idea! Not only is it a voice I'm fond of reading, but I can see exactly why it would be useful for me. The two big works I've published here so far have been in either first or close third person, i.e., suffuse with subjective narration either way. Now I don't mean to pass off my failure to meet basic feminist storytelling criteria as a "stylistic choice," but I do believe that pushing myself to write my next few pieces in omniscient third person--and really sticking to it, not cheating with little lapses into close third or fourth-wall-breaks--could put positive pressure on me to practice giving my female characters more equal dimensionality and inner life.

Got a little pizzazz left in you, doc? Can I squeeze out one last salty droplet of goodwill?

Great! Then I puzzle at you this: Is it possible to write good erotica in a magical realist style? In which humans and demihumans blandly coexist? Time lurches forward in meandering rhythms? Themes range from existential to horrific? Plots from banal to dream-logical? Word choice from librarian to lyrical?

Now I know what you're saying, doc. Some of these depictions of magical realism come awfully close to sounding like defenses of a lot of the mediocre story craft on display in Ingrid? Let me disabuse you of the notion that I have any self-love whatsoever: Demihumanity is no excuse for sexist caricature art. Lurching t-vectors are no excuse for neglectful pacing. Existential horror is no excuse for bathtub fiction. Cubist plot structures are no excuse for disorienting or disorganized storytelling. Bold stylistic choices are no excuse for try-hard pageantry.

Thank you in the meantime for telling me I'm talented in a way that can't be taught. Thank you forever, actually. Even if it's an abstract yummy nummy compliment on the heels of much specific raw vegetable criticism, I smack my lips.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Got a little pizzazz left in you, doc? Can I squeeze out one last salty droplet of goodwill?

Great! Then I puzzle at you this: Is it possible to write good erotica in a magical realist style? In which humans and demihumans blandly coexist? Time lurches forward in meandering rhythms? Themes range from existential to horrific? Plots from banal to dream-logical? Word choice from librarian to lyrical?

@burgwad

I would say that all of these things are possible. It would be hard to do all of them at once, because again you would run into a scope problem, but one could certainly cut a large swath through this checklist within a single short story.

I don't usually like to use my thread to pimp out my own writing, because I am not trying to create a bunch of clones who write and think and do just like I do, but I feel like I do have a story of my own that hits on a quite a few of these and it's not even very long!

https://literotica.com/s/the-perfect-storm-9

If I've understood your question, then I think this one attempts some of the things you're talking about.

 

[HectorBidon]

@burgwad
Ingrid

I didn't read the story, not even the blurb, but I found your review to be fascinating reading in its own right. Thanks. I haven't read all your reviews, and, to tell you the truth I've found some of them a bit sister-in-law school marmish. But this one was Pauline Kael. You're critiquing a writer who is apparently pretty good already and giving him solid pointers to get up to the next level. Many of your lessons certainly hit home with me, as I'm sure they will with other authors here. Such intelligent writing about writing is a real pleasure to come across. So thanks for all the effort you must have put into this review.

 

[Omenainen]

Link
Desperate Measures: The Fluffer
soflabbwlvr

The basic mechanics in this story were all okay. Flow, dialogue, grammar, nothing abhorrent to point out. Small glitches like most of us get when editing our own work, like locking the door and then closing it, some head-hopping at least in the sex scene, but nothing too bad.

To talk about the story in terms of characters and plot we need to first consider the premise, or, rather, the meta premise. All erotic stories exist in a sort of Porntopia alternate reality, where people come easily and often, no one has erectile dysfunction and sex seems to be a big part of everyday life, and it leads to most stories being more or less unrealistic when compared to actual reality. Some Loving Wives stories however exist in their own parallel reality, which has very little to do with the real world, and not a lot to do with the usual Porntopia, either.

I’m going to admit upfront that I don’t understand what is the zing in the Loving Wives stories. There are a lot of kinks that aren’t mine, but usually I can still see what the appeal is to those who do have it. Here I am at a loss. It seems to be based on some understanding about people, and relationships, and especially marriage, that I simply cannot relate to. So I’m going to use this opportunity to point out the aspects of “the LW Universe” that make the least sense to me, and then sit back and wait for all the mansplainers to come flocking.

Contains spoilers.

So, the LW Universe seems to be based on a misogynistic worldview where men are the providers, heads of the family, The Main Characters, and wives are property. Children are also non-entities: they often exist, but only to make the marriage more married and to add stakes to possible divorce. The second cornerstone of LW is some warped version of the US economic and legal culture, which for me, as a non-US citizen, seems at least as alien as the first aspect. This story is no exception.

The plot goes like this:

• The husband loses his job
• The wife gets a job despite never having worked before
• She finds out that her company is, amongst other things, producing porno
• She asks for a raise, doesn’t get it, asks if she can work in porn for more money
• Boss agrees to audition her for a job as a fluffer, which leads to The Sex Scene with the boss, the wife, and four other coworkers
• The end, she goes home and says she got the raise ie. doesn’t tell her husband the real deal

Things that don’t make sense to me:

The casual misogyny of the world: all the bosses are men, all the assistants are women. The wife is of course too fat and too old to do actual porn, but maybe if she knows how to suck cock well enough, she could suffice as a fluffer. Also how the wife in this as in many LW stories is a demure and proper housewife, but then instantly transforms into a totally uninhibited and shameless cock-sucking pro when the situation calls for it.

Kids as props: when mom works, the daughter steps up to make dinner, because her destiny is to grow up to be a doormat just like her mom, right? The son just disappears after being mentioned to establish the Good and Proper breeding abilities of the husband. There is no concern over the children’s whereabouts or well-being while mom works and dad acts like a petulant sex-crazed toddler, drinking and having wankfests around the house.

The capitalism: the husband at first had their salary cut by 20%, then their contract was transformed to hourly contract, and then they were fired. In the end the wife makes an agreement to work “seven days a week” for the same company. Now, where I live, all of this is illegal. Also, in many LW stories the threat seems to be that should they divorce, the wife gets “everything”, again not how things work in at least my reality. In this story divorce wasn’t really mentioned, so that is more of a general observation.

The nonsenseness of the work: despite never having worked before (because The Husband was such a good provider right until he wasn’t?), the wife lands a job which seems to have a whole lot of responsibilities, and immediately is more than competent at everything she does. The company does… something? But also happens to be producing porn.

The toxicity of the workplace: it is a place where “saying no is not an option”, and “saying that this isn’t a part of my job is not an option”, but still, having a boss say “right, you suck my dick, and you fuck her in the pussy and you fuck her in the mouth” is… okay, in Porntopia, maybe one could have a company where there is a secret division for making porn, and any work day can include ad hoc group sex sessions. One could write a sex positive, fun-if-a-bit-ridiculous story from that premise, but combined with the misogyny of the LW world this is just.. icky.

The sex scene is very porn-like and has so many actors that it’s a lot of whose what goes where. The story had a interracial tag, but I kind of lost in the action who was “the big black cock”, so I suppose that could have been more heavily played if it was important.

Now, what puzzles me is what is supposed to be hot in all this. There’s certainly some emasculation of the husband and rubbing it in his face on how the wife is immediately so successful in the professional world, so is this supposed to play on the humiliation of the husband? But then she doesn’t tell him that her new job is to suck dick three days a week. If the kink was cuckoldry, shouldn’t he know?

The wife doesn’t seem to mind working in porn, and again, one could have written a different sexy story about the “interviewing to be a fluffer” premise. But this is not an erotic coupling story, nor is this a group sex story, this is a loving wives story. Also, despite the husband being almost absent from the story, this is actually a story about the husband, isn’t it? The wife is just a prop, just like the kids are, even though we follow her through the whole story.

Is this then torture porn where we’re supposed to imagine a guy we hate to the husband’s position and marvel on how poorly his life turns out? But how poorly is that? So he lost his job and is depressed, but his wife is bringing in the money, everyone is healthy… is it really so awful not to be The Provider at all times? Is it because he’s ignorant of the specifics of her wife’s profession? Does that make him so ridiculed as to count for torture? What is the big deal of having a sex worker for a wife? Is it so insulting that someone is using his property behind his back? Is it so insulting that the wife should have any agency at all that it is the whole point of the story?

Also, what is the point of saving this marriage?

I think there could easily be a version of this story where the husband isn’t making enough money so the wife gets a job, and the wife isn’t sexually assaulted in her home (because the husband doesn’t spend his whole day wallowing), but she knows full well that she got a job working at a company that makes porn. She hides this from her husband from the start, and feels guilty but also strangely liberated, and when the opportunity arises she finds that she likes being on set and watching, and that there is some allure involved. She loves her husband, and their love makes sense because both characters are fully formed characters and not one dimensional tropes. Then, at the end, now that you’ve established a reason for her to still be at her job (she loves it) and a reason for her to still be with her husband (she loves him), she gets pregnant, and she has absolutely no idea who the father is. Now the kids serve a purpose!

Don’t get discouraged, now. It was a reasonably well written story, just that because I am not really certain what it set out to do I can’t evaluate whether it hit the mark or not. LW stories are weird erotic stories in that often they’re not sexy at all. If you or anyone else would like to explain the attended dynamic of these types of stories, I’m interested to hear.

 

[Lifestyle66]

... So I’m going to use this opportunity to point out the aspects of “the LW Universe” that make the least sense to me, and then sit back and wait for all the mansplainers to come flocking.

...

I think there could easily be a version of this story where the husband isn’t making enough money so the wife gets a job, and the wife isn’t sexually assaulted in her home (because the husband doesn’t spend his whole day wallowing), but she knows full well that she got a job working at a company that makes porn. She hides this from her husband from the start, and feels guilty but also strangely liberated, and when the opportunity arises she finds that she likes being on set and watching, and that there is some allure involved. She loves her husband, and their love makes sense because both characters are fully formed characters and not one dimensional tropes. Then, at the end, now that you’ve established a reason for her to still be at her job (she loves it) and a reason for her to still be with her husband (she loves him), she gets pregnant, and she has absolutely no idea who the father is. Now the kids serve a purpose!
...
If you or anyone else would like to explain the attended dynamic of these types of stories, I’m interested to hear.

I have read such a story in the LW category in the past, so it appears the one you critiqued is just a different version of a previously written scenario. So, as a mansplainer, I would like to point out the LW category is SUPPOSED to be "extra-marital fun, sharing, and more". Nowhere in that description does it say: "all women are bitches to be used".

It just seems that over the last few years 1-bombing trolls have taken over the category and applauded the burn-the-bitch scenarios to the point of many readers forming a negative opinion of "extra-marital fun and sharing", and many writers avoiding the category and not providing anything positive.

I think some of that negativity comes across in your critique of the LW category in general, and perhaps you've missed the more positive stories. In my latest Lifestyle series chapter, I've tried to present such an explanation of WHY a couple finds that sharing lifestyle erotic, and I try to present the wife in that Loving Wives story in a positive "in control" manner.

If you would like to critique my latest "Lifestyle Ch.12: The Bar Group" in Loving Wives, I always appreciate every point of view, even the negative. But if you'd like to see why the wife behaves in such a manner, try reading Ch 11 about her past demons (I posted that to Romance, thinking it's about just the two of them.)

 

[Omenainen]

I have read what I felt were good stories in LW, stories that exist in the same Porntopia realm as most other stories. However, there seems to be plenty of this other sort too, and I’m curious about that. Also, this fluffer story was published on 2011, so for better or for worse it hasn’t been a part of the troll invasion of the last few years.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I have read what I felt were good stories in LW, stories that exist in the same Porntopia realm as most other stories. However, there seems to be plenty of this other sort too, and I’m curious about that. Also, this fluffer story was published on 2011, so for better or for worse it hasn’t been a part of the troll invasion of the last few years.

But you wrote earlier "So, the LW Universe seems to be based on a misogynistic worldview where men are the providers, heads of the family, The Main Characters, and wives are property."

In my experiences reading LW stories, many are perhaps the opposite where the wife treats the husband like dirt by having an affair. And unless the husband "burns the bitch", the story is 1-bombed. Is it a misogynistic worldview for a husband to expect his wife to be faithful? Should a wife expect her husband to be faithful? Unless the husband "burns the bitch" in such cheating wife stories, the troll comments are often equally disparaging of the cuckhold/wimp husband. (BTW: I don't find such cheating/BTB stories entertaining.)

But I would agree the trolls there seem heavily weighted toward a misogynistic view of husbands controlling their wives' sex activities. In my own stories, I try to show a couple where BOTH are enjoying extra-marital fun, but the trolls still call the characters cuck & slut. This might be due to such stories as wives enjoying extra-marital sex strikes an emotional chord disproportionately with some men whose wives or girlfriends DID cheat on them. So, the trolls come out in numbers hating it. The comments on my own FUN sharing stories are often "Wait for it, because she'll cheat on him in the future!"

 

[Omenainen]

But you wrote earlier "So, the LW Universe seems to be based on a misogynistic worldview where men are the providers, heads of the family, The Main Characters, and wives are property."

In my experiences reading LW stories, many are perhaps the opposite where the wife treats the husband like dirt by having an affair.

This is not the opposite, it is exactly the same. How dare the wife disrespect her rightful master this way? It is based on the exact same misogynistic perception where the wife is an accessory to the husband, something he owns and controls, and not a person of her own who makes her own decisions. Everything in these setups is designed to show what a Successful Man the husband is - what kind of car he has, how big a house, how he has sired healthy children and preferably boys, how beautiful and sexy and subservient his wife is. The only actual character is the husband, and even he is often caricaturish.

 

[Lifestyle66]

This is not the opposite, it is exactly the same. How dare the wife disrespect her rightful master this way? It is based on the exact same misogynistic perception where the wife is an accessory to the husband, something he owns and controls, and not a person of her own who makes her own decisions. Everything in these setups is designed to show what a Successful Man the husband is - what kind of car he has, how big a house, how he has sired healthy children and preferably boys, how beautiful and sexy and subservient his wife is. The only actual character is the husband, and even he is often caricaturish.

If the wife's own decision is to have an affair, is a husband misogynistic to think she's wrong for breaking their marriage vows?

 

[Omenainen]

If the wife's own decision is to have an affair, is a husband misogynistic to think she's wrong for breaking their marriage vows?

How do you figure this is a relevant question in this discussion?

 

[Lifestyle66]

How do you figure this is a relevant question in this discussion?

You reviewed an LW story, stating "So, the LW Universe seems to be based on a misogynistic worldview where men are the providers, heads of the family, The Main Characters, and wives are property."

In my experience, LW stories seem to lean heavily toward burn-the-bitch stories, where the trolls expect the husband to get revenge on a cheating wife. And I tried to point that out.

You replied with "How dare the wife disrespect her rightful master this way? It is based on the exact same misogynistic perception where the wife is an accessory to the husband, something he owns and controls, and not a person of her own who makes her own decisions."

So, I asked my logical question, Is it misogynistic of the husband to expect his wife to be faithful?

This comes from you asking anyone to try explaining the LW troll mentality. And I'm trying to explain their mentality seems to be one in which they HATE cheaters. It's just that the majority of the stories devolved into cheating wives, and rare are the stories of FUN and sharing.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Thank you for taking the time to read my story and provide some thoughtful feedback. Some of your points are well-taken. Others, however, not so much. Most of the differences seem to stem from two causes: Baggage associated with the Loving Wives category, and unfamiliarity with the 2009-2014 global depression.

First off, regarding the children. You are correct, they are underdeveloped and serve very little purpose. I don't know if I would put more effort into them or merely delete them from the story in a revised version. They are teenagers, and as such they spend little time at home and do not become overly involved in the household except when it affects them directly. Probably better to delete them next time.

Second, the company. Again you are correct, the exact business of the company is not mentioned. It is a conglomerate with many different subsidiaries, but only two are actually mentioned--a gaming division and the porn production company. I did not think it was important to go into any more detail than that, but next time I will.

Third, the use of tags. I threw in the interracial tag because there was one black character involved in the climactic sex scene. I don't usually write for the interracial category, but I do include various races in nearly all of my stories. I write them as characters who happen to be a particular race, rather than as objects to be fetishized. I suppose using that tag raises expectations that are not met in the story. In general I do not give much thought to story tags, and perhaps I should.

The rest of my responses will be pushing back against your commentary.

First off, I do not write either cuckold or "burn the bitch" stories. I do not find either of these sub-genres appealing. This story was not intended to sate either of those audiences, which I understand comprise the bulk of the Loving Wives category in 2022. This story was written and set in 2011, which was in the middle of the 2009-2014 depression. Businesses closed in those years. People lost work. They suffered and became desperate. In the office building where I worked the occupancy fell from 86% to 30% in 24 months. This story is about how two people responded to that stress.

Businesses tried various cost-cutting measures to try and stay afloat. Cutting hours and salaries was one means of doing so. That wasn't always enough. Many businesses went under. That's what happened to Mitchell's business. Six months without a job was a crushing blow to him. Psychologically, he hit rock bottom. When he hit rock bottom he behaved poorly toward everyone, but especially toward his wife.

Eventually, Elizabeth found work. She had a college degree, but due to staying home to raise the children she had no experience. That was s choice the two of them made together. It was not imposed upon her. It did, however, validate Mitchell's worth to himself. So she took the only job she could find, which was a clerical position in a large corporation. It brought in some money, but not enough to replace Mitchell's salary. Elizabeth becoming the primary breadwinner was a crippling blow to Mitchell's fragile ego, however.

I have to take issue with your description of the workplace as "misogynistic" and "toxic". Sure, all the bosses are male and all the assistants are female, but that is a misleading statistic. There is only one boss and two assistants in the story. In the US, between 89 and 94% of all clerical employees are women. Female assistants are the norm in a corporate office.

I would also argue that the discussion regarding shared responsibilities does not describe toxicity, but rather, teamwork. The notion that employees would be expected to pitch in and help each other out rather than declining to offer assistance due to defined silos of responsibility seems healthy to a well-functioning work environment, not anathematic.

Two more points. The porn the company produced was a specific type of porn--beautiful young men and women were the only talent they were interested in using. The boss acknowledged that there were other companies that made other types of porn that used other types of talent, but they did not make that type there. Elizabeth had no desire to perform in front of the camera in any event. She resented the amounts of money the talent was earning. She wanted a piece of that pie, but was not interested in doing work in front of the camera. Fluffing was a compromise.

Finally, the argument that the boss was demanding blow jobs from employees constitutes evidence of toxicity proceeds from flawed premises. First, he did not demand that she suck his cock. Rather, she requested the opportunity to audition for the position of fluffer. The job literally consists of nothing more than sucking cocks. It was her choice. He tried to dissuade her.

Second, the suggestion that his giving orders was toxic is rather odd. He was standing in as the director. The job of the director is literally to give orders to performers. A film doesn't get made without a director giving directions. All of the employees were former or part time porn actors. Since this was a porn production, the performances would be sexual.

In the end, the biggest problem seems to be submitting this story as a Loving Wives story. I do not subscribe to the notion that there can only be two types of LW stories. I do not write for this category very often, but when I do I write outside those norms. Maybe I should avoid that category altogether. Humiliation was not the objective, nor was revenge. The story was about desperation, and what people will do for money when they are so desperate that the unthinkable becomes thinkable. I could have submitted this in Erotic Couplings or Group Sex, I suppose, and it would have been free of the baggage associated with LW. If, however, the principle criticism is that the story is not hot, well then I will have to consider it a failure.

In any event, thank you for the review. You have given me some things to think about. If you are interested, I have another story that perhaps I should have submitted instead of this one. But if it is one per customer, I understand completely.

 

[Omenainen]

You reviewed an LW story, stating "So, the LW Universe seems to be based on a misogynistic worldview where men are the providers, heads of the family, The Main Characters, and wives are property."

In my experience, LW stories seem to lean heavily toward burn-the-bitch stories, where the trolls expect the husband to get revenge on a cheating wife. And I tried to point that out.

Yes, and burn-the-bitch stories are firmly grounded in that misogynistic basic premise that I described. It’s not a question of who does what.

You replied with "How dare the wife disrespect her rightful master this way? It is based on the exact same misogynistic perception where the wife is an accessory to the husband, something he owns and controls, and not a person of her own who makes her own decisions."

So, I asked my logical question, Is it misogynistic of the husband to expect his wife to be faithful?

It is misogynistic for the husband to expect his wife to be his servant forever in all matters just because he has happened to put a ring on her. For example, in the story I reviewed the husband insults and sexually assaults the wife only because she had the audacity to get a job to support the family.

This comes from you asking anyone to try explaining the LW troll mentality. And I'm trying to explain their mentality seems to be one in which they HATE cheaters. It's just that the majority of the stories devolved into cheating wives, and rare are the stories of FUN and sharing.

I did not ask to explain the LW troll mentality. I asked to explain what in these types of stories is genuinely erotic or appealing to some people. Are you saying they get off on hate? Hate of what? Women? Isn’t that the definition of misogyny?

From you I could ask if it makes a difference if the people in your stories are married or not. Does the marriage bring some kind of extra sheen on the swinging or would any committed relationship do?

 

[Lifestyle66]

Yes, and burn-the-bitch stories are firmly grounded in that misogynistic basic premise that I described. It’s not a question of who does what.



It is misogynistic for the husband to expect his wife to be his servant forever in all matters just because he has happened to put a ring on her. For example, in the story I reviewed the husband insults and sexually assaults the wife only because she had the audacity to get a job to support the family.



I did not ask to explain the LW troll mentality. I asked to explain what in these types of stories is genuinely erotic or appealing to some people. Are you saying they get off on hate? Hate of what? Women? Isn’t that the definition of misogyny?

From you I could ask if it makes a difference if the people in your stories are married or not. Does the marriage bring some kind of extra sheen on the swinging or would any committed relationship do?

The eroticism of some LW stories is in the sex, even that of the cheating wife. The trolls seem to excitedly look forward to the eventual burn, and reward those burn stories with high ratings and positive comments. They disparage any husband who allows his wife to have her affair, calling such husbands cucks and the wives sluts. So, it's not that they hate woman, but rather they hate anyone in those cheating relationships. In my opinion, they seem to just hate cheaters, and look for "he/she got what they deserved". It's a fetish, similar to people watching horror movies. Who would want such frightful entertainment? But yes, there is an audience for fear, depression, and even broken marriage stories.

For my own stories, I use a married couple for the permanence in their relationship, so they can move through their evolution in lifestyle together. Any other committed relationship might also work. But I want them to have some anchor which keeps them together through events which try the patience of one or the other. (If you read my series, except for "Threesomes", you'll find it's usually the wife who tries her husband's patience by deviating from their personal rules.) In your review of my Strip Club story for the Orchid challenge, you seem offended that the husband was setting up his wife's stage performance, even though it was HER bucket list wish. And you didn't like her "take charge" attitude. Could it be you look for misogyny where none is intended?

 

[Omenainen]

I have to take issue with your description of the workplace as "misogynistic" and "toxic". Sure, all the bosses are male and all the assistants are female, but that is a misleading statistic. There is only one boss and two assistants in the story. In the US, between 89 and 94% of all clerical employees are women. Female assistants are the norm in a corporate office.

I would also argue that the discussion regarding shared responsibilities does not describe toxicity, but rather, teamwork. The notion that employees would be expected to pitch in and help each other out rather than declining to offer assistance due to defined silos of responsibility seems healthy to a well-functioning work environment, not anathematic.

It's how things are expressed that establishes the tone. The boss comes across as being, well, bossy, and uses phrases like "if this is not done on time you will be held accountable", " I must be able to reach you on the company cell phone 24/7", 'that's not my job' is not an excuse around here". When Elizabeth asks for raise, he says

"And so you know how much every clerical employee in this company is paid, isn't that true?"

"Yes."

"Where does your salary rank, compared to other clericals?"

"A little higher than most, but a long way from the top."

"How many clericals making more than you have more experience than you?"

"All of them."

"How many have worked here longer than you?"

"All of them."

"I'm sorry, how many did you say?"

"All of them."

"How could I justify paying you more than similar employees with more experience?"

"Sir, if you can't give me a raise, I'm going to have to look for work somewhere else."

"Are you resigning?"

"I..."

"You want me to keep you on the payroll while you spend your time looking for a new job, is that what you're telling me?"

"No, sir. I..."

"If you think you can find a better opportunity in this job market, then you are more than welcome to leave. You have been a very good employee–I have enjoyed having you here–and I will give you an excellent reference, but I am not going to pay you to sit at your desk and look for a new job. Go now, if that's what you want to do. Just go. No hard feelings. I'll even pay you through the end of the week."

He's aggressive and talks over her. All this creates an impression of very demanding boss, who doesn't take no for an answer, and refusing to do anything will probably end in a termination.

Finally, the argument that the boss was demanding blow jobs from employees constitutes evidence of toxicity proceeds from flawed premises. First, he did not demand that she suck his cock. Rather, she requested the opportunity to audition for the position of fluffer. The job literally consists of nothing more than sucking cocks. It was her choice. He tried to dissuade her.

Second, the suggestion that his giving orders was toxic is rather odd. He was standing in as the director. The job of the director is literally to give orders to performers. A film doesn't get made without a director giving directions. All of the employees were former or part time porn actors. Since this was a porn production, the performances would be sexual.

You say that "all of the employees were former or part time porn actors". In the story, however, they are introduced as

"Matt and Eric were district sales directors for Glo-Stick Games, a division that produced video games. Wes worked in the mail room." And then Colleen, who is a fellow assistant and has been helping Elizabeth settle in, is said to be a former star porn actress who has retired that four years ago.

This is a snippet of how the boss sets up the thing:

"Alright Liz, I'll give you an audition. You get one chance, but if it doesn't work out, then I don't ever want to hear you mention Digital X again. Are we clear?"

"Yes, sir."

"Good. Now get over here. You have three minutes to get me hard."

"Now?"

"Yes, now. Two minutes, fifty seconds."

Elizabeth got out of her chair and hurried to the other side of the desk. She knelt in front of Mr. Callahan, opened his pants, and pulled out his soft cock. She put his cock in her mouth and started sucking.

Mr. Callahan reached for his phone.

"Colleen? Good, I'm glad you're still here. I need you to locate Betty Booty, Dick Denver, Lance Strongdong, and Romeo Black."

Elizabeth had never heard any of those cartoonish names before.

"I want them in my office in fifteen minutes. ... I know it's after six thirty. ... Have them turn around and come back, if necessary. ... Yes, this is for an audition."

Now, combined with how bossy the boss is towards Elizabeth, the reader has no reason to believe he'd be any less demanding towards the other employees. I think having people come back to the office after hours, on a whim, to perform sexual acts, under the threat of being fired, is nowhere near "healthy to a well-functioning work environment". Not even if these people were sex workers, and they aren't. They're sales directors, an assistant and a mail room worker.

All this could have been expressed differently to create a lighthearted, porn-sensical environment, but all this combined tips this more into non-con than anything else. Now, this could have worked as a non-con story, but then it would've needed to be emphasized yet differently.

In the end, the biggest problem seems to be submitting this story as a Loving Wives story. I do not subscribe to the notion that there can only be two types of LW stories. I do not write for this category very often, but when I do I write outside those norms. Maybe I should avoid that category altogether. Humiliation was not the objective, nor was revenge. The story was about desperation, and what people will do for money when they are so desperate that the unthinkable becomes thinkable. I could have submitted this in Erotic Couplings or Group Sex, I suppose, and it would have been free of the baggage associated with LW. If, however, the principle criticism is that the story is not hot, well then I will have to consider it a failure.

I think you captured the desperation well enough, but what is erotic about desperation? I don't think this story as it is would have made sense in Erotic Couplings or Group Sex.

And no, having a bossy boss dictate who puts what in which hole is not hot to me, nor would it have been in different category. The sex was not badly described, but just narrating a porn scene doesn't translate the hotness into written word.

In any event, thank you for the review. You have given me some things to think about. If you are interested, I have another story that perhaps I should have submitted instead of this one. But if it is one per customer, I understand completely.

There are no absolute limits, and I know that there has been "repeat offenders" in the past. However, we're not going to review every one of your stories, and the limit lies between one and all somewhere and is for us to draw. You have a substantial amount of stories published over a long period of time, so you already know you can write stories. For an established author like yourself I would recommend choosing a story where you tried to do something and didn't quite succeed, and don't know why, or something else where you have a specific thing in mind on which you would want us to focus. Something that you think we might help you get better on.

 

[Omenainen]

For my own stories, I use a married couple for the permanence in their relationship, so they can move through their evolution in lifestyle together. Any other committed relationship might also work. But I want them to have some anchor which keeps them together through events which try the patience of one or the other.

That is a perfectly valid reason. Especially since you're writing a series...

(If you read my series, except for "Threesomes", you'll find it's usually the wife who tries her husband's patience by deviating from their personal rules.)

...which I know, because you keep bringing it up.

In your review of my Strip Club story for the Orchid challenge, you seem offended that the husband was setting up his wife's stage performance, even though it was HER bucket list wish. And you didn't like her "take charge" attitude.

I did not review your story. I beta read it. And in the original draft you sent me, it was not established that it was the wife's bucket list wish. You added pointers to that direction after I commented on it, and it made the story better. You've said so yourself.

Could it be you look for misogyny where none is intended?

If there's misogyny where it's not intended, it's probably because there's misogyny in the author and it flows through to the story. Now, if there is no misogyny in the story and I misinterpret, then shame on me. I'll let that for everyone to decide. I don't believe you have read the story in question and anyway I'm not very interested in continuing this conversation with you.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

There are no absolute limits, and I know that there has been "repeat offenders" in the past. However, we're not going to review every one of your stories, and the limit lies between one and all somewhere and is for us to draw. You have a substantial amount of stories published over a long period of time, so you already know you can write stories. For an established author like yourself I would recommend choosing a story where you tried to do something and didn't quite succeed, and don't know why, or something else where you have a specific thing in mind on which you would want us to focus. Something that you think we might help you get better on.

Fair enough. The response to this story absolutely baffled me. Modern Science. It's in Exhibition and Voyeur. I would be interested in seeing your thoughts.

 

[Lovecraft_Lore]

If there's misogyny where it's not intended, it's probably because there's misogyny in the author and it flows through to the story

If there's misogyny where it's not intended, it's probably because there's misogyny in the author and it flows through to the story

I'll let that for everyone to decide

I read it. I didn't rate it as it was not my kink. I second the misogyny opinion. Then again there are things that I don't get or am not into. Incest, scat, and many others, maybe the story just didn't read right as I was not the intended readership.

 

[AwkwardMD]

@txblush
Link

I have, over the years, gotten a bit of a reputation for being ‘prudish’, and I think that stems from the way I review stories like this one. I’m going to try really hard to be clear.

Pros: You wrote and submitted your first story! Congratulations! It’s descriptive, and pretty, and uses some beautiful imagery to capture something really ugly and hard, and that’s awesome. I liked the scope of it for a first story, capturing a moment but implying a whole lot more. I think the technical term is in media res, and I’m here for it.

Cons: While I do like the way you started the story, you also straight up didn’t include the most powerful part of the story, only hinted at it. The day before was the interesting part. What happens after, the part you wrote, is a neat epilogue, but it’s having to imply the real heat of the story.*

Cons: Daniel is a piece of shit. Now, I think a lot of things are intersecting in interesting ways that prevent us from understanding a character who, I’m sure, is more complicated and deep in your head, but in the story on the page, this guy just sucks.

Here’s what I think. This is my guess. The best parts of this story got lost between trying to make a “This is my kink” statement and a “I’m a little bit embarrassed by my kink” mindset. In the canon of the story, the POV character gets what she wanted, but the story is written with distance (in the form of time) to keep the worst of it at arms length. I’m quite sure that, given more space to show the choices he’s making, and the lengths he’s going to, and maybe even some of the conversations these two had before meeting up in a hotel, there’s some humanity in Daniel, but because we’re only getting this tiny slice of the end of the story, we only get the most condensed version. There’s no nuance, and it’s all abuse.

Schroedinger’s Dom: until you put Daniel in the position of having the safe word be used, he is simultaneously ‘a good dude with a dark kink who does the stand up thing and stops when she says stop’ AND ‘a piece of shit who gets off on abusing women’. Given what’s on the page, I see no reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. The POV character clearly has an internal struggle with ‘I shouldn’t want this but I do, and I’m okay with what’s happening to me despite the fact that other people would be horrified’, but there’s no hint of ‘I shouldn’t be getting hard looking at her bruises, but I am’. Both of those are powerful statements, and you really need both of them for this to be a BDSM story and not just an unreported assault and rape (and maybe kidnapping?).

I think that getting a few more stories under your belt will help you find the confidence to write that day before, and give it the same kind of savage beauty that this postscript got. Next time, let Daniel go too far, fucked vibes all around, and the POV character says no. Saying no can make him mad, and it can be difficult, and that's a great opportunity to show nuance rather than just sheer brutality. If what you wanted was sheer brutality, then stop trying to sell us on the idea that the dude might respect her opinion.

Now, I've written most of this review assuming you wanted to write a BDSM story. I've tried to give you advice on how to write a better BDSM story. If you just wanted the violence, and that is for sure a kink that some people have and you will find an audience for, then just write a noncon story. Throw out my earlier suggestions, and go all in on the pain. Stop trying to convince us that Daniel is worth believing in, and let him be an antagonist.

***

*For those of you paying attention, this is the same argument I made with EnchantmentofNyx and The Madness Of The Hunt. The best part of that story was the flashback, the actual noncon scene that barely showed up. Show me the hard part! Let it be hard and complicated and messy! Real emotions!

 

[burgwad]

@AwkwardMD Alright. You did me a good feminism. And the result, which is a novel, is Nazanin.

If you can't read the whole thing, then the stack of unfinished books on my nightstand and I completely and with solemn commiseration understand. But please note somewhat excitedly that this isn't just a novel-length story. It's a novel. And I wrote it with you directly in my sights as someone I truly, sorely hoped to impress. I've done nerdy, invisible things with structure. I've made conscious, brutal cuts (resulting in a 90-page single-spaced sister document of only excised content). I've breathed what human life I could into all of my characters, not 'regardless' of gender, but with curious concern for it.

And I even tried to do a feminism! Of course I failed, I think, but I failed with love and earnest and in full naked view of the reader. Let us still please celebrate that Nazanin stars women who (i) are not attracted to the protagonist, (ii) at least once decline sex, and/or (iii) do not once have or even discuss sex. (Wow, what an achievement.) But also, my story passes the Bechdel test! (Again, probably shouldn't be a standard anyone is proud of meeting, but I am proud!) It's a baby step. But please be proud of me?

"Lots of dialog" will be a thought that's on your mind if/when you get into the meat of things. If I may be so bold: I have tried my goddamn damnedest to make sure that sex scenes either consciously include the dialog in fun and sexy ways, or else hardly at all (i.e., just dirty talk, fun moans, or simple directives); elsewise, I have relegated the bulk of Nazanin's dialog to story-focused scenes where communication is critical for developing understanding and/or connection between characters. Still, it's going to be so, so tempting to tell me I included too much dialog. And by jove, I may just have.

I feel compelled to say I look forward to another heaping portion of your thoughtful criticism. But I also opened this message with a sincere peremptory note that I understand completely if you can't read something this massive just for my sake. So. I mean both. Whatever the outcome might be.

 

[AwkwardMD]

@Lifestyle66
Link

Two quick things at the front. One, you used the word ‘lifestyle’ eleven times during the course of this story. My count might be off by a little, as this word appears in both your name and the story title so a quick search is misleading, but we get it.

We all get it.

Two, every single character in this story is immediately identified by skin-deep attractiveness. This one has a nice ass, and that one’s tits are great. We find out how big the wife’s tits are before we find out her name. We know everyone’s height immediately.

With actual sex, and with porn, these are things that the eye will grasp immediately, but erotica is a different medium. It’s capable of a lot more depth and nuance, of slow introductions that happen on different levels and at a different pace. While there are surely some readers who are sitting there, dick in hand, eager to assign the most basic mental image to every character you introduce to them, it’s not good writing. We’ve talked about this before, about choosing which kind of success you are interested in as an author; that success on Lit doesn’t always require good writing and that good writing doesn’t always succeed on Lit.

If you put bad writing in front of us, however, we’re going to call you on it.

***

There is a complicated relationship between the universe of erotica and the universe of reality. As we recently pointed out, erotica tends to be a kind of idealized version of reality where everyone can cum twice, all the women are squirters, and nobody has to poop ever. It might be tempting to look at things like this and think “Ah ha! I don’t even have to try because realism is a nonsense goal!”

Bear with me here.

Clearly, this story is trying to appeal to someone. You probably had a kind of reader, or an audience in mind . Those people, whoever they are, are looking for points of reference. They want things to make at least some kind of sense. Feet people are looking for the story to talk about a heel dangling from an upturned toe. Ass people are looking for the moment the love interest bends over to find something fell on the floor. Signifiers.

I might be thinking an extremely hot thought when I wrote “Ahfdklja bke ble gor aiga!” but it doesn’t come across unless I, the writer, and you, the reader, are using the same language. Signifiers. If we take this basic idea and stretch it a little, we can reasonably arrive at “erotica needs to be about people.”

What does that mean? Well, it means that our characters need to resemble human beings. Act like them. Talk like them. Have human concerns.

For example, Ted and Jan have, as near as we can tell, one and only one rule about going to these events; stay in the room together. It doesn’t happen, because the story wants to break rules for the sake of being hot, but then later when this comes up there’s no angst. There’s no disconnect and frustration and it’s fine.

It’s not fine. It’s lazy.

It doesn’t make the wife look extra cool to break rules and get away with it. It makes you look bad as a writer. It changes this story from being “about two people who have a complicated relationship” to “a boy holding a naked Ken doll and a naked Barbie doll, and smashing their midsections together while insisting loudly that it’s super hot.”

This story is about two swingers who have found a swinging/orgy group they like. They arrive at the location, a location they have been to before, and then get a guided tour around the building that takes, what, 3000 words? A third of the story, including a few stops here and there? If you had been to a place, and someone took this much of your time giving you a tour when you could be getting sucked off or eaten out (or doing the sucking and eating, as your preference allows), you’d be annoyed, but this doesn’t phase these two at all because the story and their experience has been warped to fit a narrative that suits no one.

Why include the bar at all? What is the point of this? Who looks at a woman riding a man and says, out loud, “I thought that was very erotic.”

It’s all so inorganic. None of it flows well. Nothing is rooted in any kind of backstory, or natural progression. None of these people feel real.

(If, right now, you’re gearing up to try to tell me about “the backstory” that happens in the first 11 chapters, then I’ll make it easy; point me to the moment that explains why the wife always carries a spray for red wine stains. If you can’t, then just take this advice under advisement and meditate on it.)

Imagine if, using tinker toys, you constructed a single, perfect, three-dimensional 36D boob. Every dimension lovingly recreated, with a teardrop contour and a perfectly round nipple. It might have the shape of a boob, it might resemble a boob, especially from a distance, but no one is going to get off to it. It’s missing the humanity. It’s missing the rest of the woman. It’s missing the texture of her skin, and the quality of the moan that comes out of her when you brush the nipple just so. It’s missing how warm her breath feels on your skin when you’re that close to her.

It’s missing the people.