AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

[AwkwardMD]

I would be remiss if I didn't point out my own recent work about degradation and humiliation. Obviously, I explored it from a different angle, but the protagonist is put through a significant ordeal. This is not a subject I am unaware of or against. I don't expect anyone to get back to me with in-depth thoughts on it, but I do believe there are some topics that should be approached with tact and intent. This is one of them.

I am not constrained by authorial endorsement. It does not limit me or the stories I choose to tell. I can write dark, disturbing, erotic, and thoughtful all at once, and I never punch down.

 

[TN10IC]

A good erotic story can have a good message, or no message, or a bad message. It can be utterly transgressive, and still be good art. A good erotic story can plumb the depths of our dark places. Telling an author "I don't like your kink" -- which is what you are doing -- is not helpful criticism. It's Philistine moralizing. That doesn't help any writer.

I agree this is true philosophically; a story does not have to be positive or have a positive message. But if a story has a bad message, then I think that its author should be ready to deal with the blowback. Based on his response to the review, I don’t think this author is.

I was unfamiliar with the “CMNF” acronym before reading Daniella and the Lions (I’m showing my age. I had to look up that it means, clothes male but naked female), but I am familiar with and have always enjoyed those kinds of stories. I like the idea of a woman exhibiting herself in public. And in my years, I have been lucky to have a few occasions to see a little skin in public here and there sometimes when I wasn’t supposed to (God bless the sixties!). And I’m not picky about my erotica lol, I guess I have all the “kinks”. But I also know what rape and sexual assault are, and I think this story crossed a line between humiliating the lady and assaulting her. I think the fact that the author justified his literary choices with Judith and Sansa Stark demonstrate that the AwkwardMD reviewer had the right “doctor’s diagnosis”.

Edited: Also, I like this and this is a good thread. I am gglad I found it and I am going to read these stories and their reviews.

 

[NoJo]

Okay.

I'll take that Okay not as an "o-KAY...." and offer up one of my stories which is one I personally enjoy reading.

Your last review of the first chapter of a five part story of mine was smart, thought-provoking and astute but you also posed a few questions, phrased somewhat rhetorically, which were more than adequately explained in subsequent chapters.

Therefore I'd love to get your opinion on a very short non-erotic satire Body and Soul which I wrote back in 2009. It has very, very few reads. It's a bitter and angry satire about cheating. I wrote it during the breakup of my first marriage. It's basically a morality tale, told to me by me.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

That being said, this review came across as kink-shaming and a personal attack on me and the readers of my stories.

I disagree.

I like and write C*N*. I’ve edited other people’s ENF. I don’t feel kink-shamed by AMD’s review.

These discussions about personal attacks and shaming (is it funny we’re discussing shaming as related to humiliation erotica, or is it just me?) have popped up a couple of times in this thread. They seem to build up with the same trajectory: an author asks AMD to read something and she gives an unvarnished opinion about what she’s read as well as critical analysis. The disgruntled author ignores the analysis, calls foul, says they’re being attacked and asserts that AMD owed him/her something that wasn’t received. Debates ensue.

I write, read, watch C*N* and ENF. BT has written C*N*. TN10IC said he likes CMNF. It doesn’t seem that they feel attacked or shamed either, and they agree with AMD’s review (who also has written C*N*).

The previous reviews, though they were tough, were mostly about how I could make my writing stronger, more real and immersive, and weaknesses in the plot. Those criticisms were valuable in helping me grow as a writer. However, this review did not have those kind of criticisms.

I’ll bite.

Setting aside that AMD did compliment your improved technical writing skills: I thought that DatL suffered from too much telling instead of showing. You gave heaping doses of expositional set up about conflicts that were happening around the narrative. Those conflicts were promising—poachers! government corruption! villages saved!—but never explored. Some were just glossed over in a sentence or two. The story would have been stronger if you’d developed any one of those threads. For example, if you’d had a scene or dialogue (something before the airport) where there was a run in with Dani, the poachers and the chief of police, then there would have been demonstrably real stakes to the personal conflict between Dani and the police chief. But it seemed like you skipped a lot of plot development to just hurry up and get Dani and the reader to the airport. Because of that, the actual story of your story was undeveloped.

[T]here is the understanding that this is fantasy and not the real world, and there would be horrendous consequences if such events took place in the real worlds….

In a traditional shame-based culture, do you think think the police chief will ever live down the shame of being beaten up by a woman and literally having her shove a shoe up his ass, and then being marched naked and in handcuffs out of the airport? That shame and reproach would follow him for the rest of his life, which by the way, may not be all that long, since dictators are known to execute people who have caused them international embarrassment.

See…. therein lies the rub. You want to dismiss critical feedback that, in your opinion, doesn’t suspend disbelief about your storyverse—you say it’s a personal attack, and basically assert that anyone with a problem with its parameters can’t distinguish between fantasy and reality. But you justify the outcome of your story with hypotheticals about what would happen in the real world—on a global, international political stage!

It doesn’t cut both ways. A visceral response that this story is about assault is a valid reader response.

All that being said, this is obviously a genre you detest, and that arouses very strong feelings in you. I thank you for taking the time to read my work and give me your thoughts. Your feedback has helped me grow as a writer. I promise, I won't send you any more of these kind of stories to review. If I do end up writing something that is not along these lines in the future, I would love to get your feedback if that is ok with you.

I think “reviewer-shaming” happens frequently enough in the Story Feedback and Editor’s Forums that it deserves to be a new term.

B7fhh1, you’ve asked AMD to read multiples of your stories, but it’s clear that you have not only never read a single one of her stories, you’ve never even just looked at her Stories page. You and others may think “Well, I don’t have to read her stories”—fine. But if you don’t, then you shouldn’t make baseless assumptions about where her comfort zone “obviously” lies. Extend the same courtesy you’re demanding.

Nothing turns me on as much as having my kink shamed in public.

https://youtu.be/35B9e5YaAJw

The only personality trait I can see Danielle showing here is compliance….

The way Danielle's "intelligence" was handled in the story reminded me of that - it felt less like "story about an intelligent woman" and more "story about a woman being humbled".

This is exactly the way I read it too.

A lot of stories on Literotica begin with a checklist of facts about the female object of sexual interest, which are, arguably, just meant to set up the reader’s interest in the coming sex act—those facts are usually things like height, age, weight, bra size, dress size and hair color; things that have to do with her appearance. But in this story, where the sex act is exposure/humiliation, the introduction was like a checklist of all the things that would be stripped away from the FMC, building her up for the thrill of knocking her down.

I didn’t see Daniella as a dimensional character, but rather as a list of factoids stacked up to prepare for her downfall and humiliation: Stanford, blonde, pretty, nice, unassuming, tech… loaded terms and ideas that, read between the line, would prime a certain type of reader to celebrate her demise.

And notably, the fact Daniella excels at Taekwondo (read: self-sufficient, strong, bad ass) was left out of that initial litany! Since her martial arts skills are on display in the story’s resolution, I wonder if it was purposefully left off the front end to make her seem weaker/have less agency.

When a character lacks agency it's very easy for a reader to come away with the impression that the author doesn't respect that character.

I have nothing to add to this spot-on observation; I’m just quoting because it bears repeating.

I agree this is true philosophically; a story does not have to be positive or have a positive message. But if a story has a bad message, then I think that its author should be ready to deal with the blowback. Based on his response to the review, I don’t think this author is.

I strongly agree with your observation. Obviously, fiction takes all forms, but the mere fact that the writing is fiction doesn’t let the author off the hook for the story’s darkness, prurience or other repugnance. I’m from Oklahoma—‘The Turner Diaries’, for example, is fiction, but its bad message has inspired multiple acts of terrorism, including terrorism that devastated my home state. I don’t understand authors who try to draw a line in the sand that erotica is somehow different from other fiction in its ability to propagandize.

On Lit, non-con characters must get some discernible enjoyment from the sex act. But in this story, it’s clear that Dani does not enjoy what is being done to her. As BT pointed out above: she submitted to degradation because she had no agency, but not because she enjoyed it. As AMD pointed out, a woman getting wet/squirting/orgasming is not evidence of enjoyment, it’s just a physical response, even if the stimulus isn’t wanted.

Most (all?) of B7fhh1’s stories are CMNF/ENF—but many of his earlier stories made it clear that the FMC enjoyed some aspects of the act! My query: if the rest of the premise, setup and overall story arch of your writing style didn’t change, then why now remove that one, critical, detail???

An engaged reader might oblige to “read in” information an author left out. But doing so here is adding things beyond the scope to make assumptions that change the playing field: first, that Dani liked it, and second, that all of this was okay... no, not just okay—according to the author's reply above, all of this made Dani a better woman! Pointing out that discrepancy doesn’t automatically make the commenting reader a prude, a moralist, narrow-minded or a kink-shamer.

If I had to get into Daniella's head and describe her state of mind at the end of the story, I don’t think she would have felt ‘even more powerful’. I don’t think it would be on her mind that she was ‘still the strong, smart, and now, rich woman’ or ’bad ass’. I even don’t think she would have felt humiliated.

Humiliated would be a word too weak to capture her emotions at that time.

I agree. Like BT discussed, this was a story about agency. A woman can have “all the things”—beauty, brains, talent and even brawn—and still a man she doesn’t know can take everything away from her in a second by assaulting her.

If I had to write down her emotions from that time, I would have written down that she felt violated. That she felt harassed, and violated in her autonomy. That she felt disgusted by the way her body had been defiled. That she felt terrible by how her feelings of dignity and pride, but also the possibility for having feelings like carelessness and happiness, had been taken away from her.

This is the last paragraph:


My version would be that, once safely in the air, she only wanted to curl up and cry. And that son-of-a-bitch next to her, with his smug grin on his face, demonstrating a complete lack of empathy to support her in what she was going through…

I have a couple of thoughts about I’m Your Valentine that I would like to contribute to the thread after you and AMD have time to discuss it. But here, I think you perfectly nailed Daniella’s emotional state as well as a revised, emotionally-accurate conclusion.


*waves* ^__^ I hope everyone is doing well!

 

[Bramblethorn]

*waves* ^__^ I hope everyone is doing well!

Pretty good, thanks! Took a while to work in your feedback on mine but it's much the better for the tough love. Slowly approaching the end of the last chapter.

 

[SimonDoom]

I am not constrained by authorial endorsement. .

Nope. As an author, you definitely are not. That's part of what's enjoyable about your stories. There's a lot of dark, weird stuff in your writing. I like dark and weird.

Something I think some people are missing in their critique of the story is that b7ffh1's story isn't about Daniella's kink, it's about the husband James's kink. He's the narrator and the POV character. The story isn't so much about Daniella as it is about how he feels about Daniella. I'm sure that male fantasy perspective -- admiring his capable wife but finding her humiliation arousing -- is uncomfortable for many women readers. But I don't think you can infer he hates her, or that his story hates her. It's complicated.

I think we can infer from the story that Daniella is a person with a significant degree of agency in her life, but several of the comments are correct that she doesn't show much of it in this story. That seems to turn on the narrator, for whatever reason. Perhaps the author could have plumbed the "why" of those feelings in greater depth. But exploring those feelings in the story isn't something the author should feel bad about.

 

[AlexBailey]

Hi AMD,

Thanks for what you do here and in your prolific works! The quality and volume of your work is incredible. I'm slow and I get lost in revisions and editing... I'm hoping experience will help with that.

I've got several short stories in the works but I'm still such a neophyte. I would appreciate some critical feedback on the first part of my novel. What should I reconsider, what opportunities am I missing, what am I doing wrong or right?


A T-Girl and a Tomboy Pt01
A closet CD is outed by the cheerleaders.

https://www.literotica.com/beta/s/a-t-girl-and-a-tomboy-pt-01


Thanks so much!

 

[AwkwardMD]

Nope. As an author, you definitely are not. That's part of what's enjoyable about your stories. There's a lot of dark, weird stuff in your writing. I like dark and weird.

I would like to point out, though, that I have been regularly accused of using authorial endorsement as a tool to shame others into some kind of progressive, social agenda. If I want to write about objectifying and humiliating women (Human Resource, My Black Sheep 2), I will. If I want to write about women with rape fantasies (Human Resource, My Black Sheep 2), I will. If I want to write sibling incest (My Black Sheep 1 and 2, Folie a Deux et al) or Parent-Child incest (Fetish), I will. If I want to write about sex workers (Work in Progress), I will. If I want to write about non-consent (Dark Horse, My Black Sheep), I will. The difference is that I use these kinks in service of telling a story, with themes like empowerment, comraderie, acceptance, forgiveness, or agency.

My problem is not with kinks. Its when others try to use "this is my kink" to place themselves above criticism that I have a problem.

Something I think some people are missing in their critique of the story is that b7ffh1's story isn't about Daniella's kink, it's about the husband James's kink. He's the narrator and the POV character. The story isn't so much about Daniella as it is about how he feels about Daniella. I'm sure that male fantasy perspective -- admiring his capable wife but finding her humiliation arousing -- is uncomfortable for many women readers. But I don't think you can infer he hates her, or that his story hates her. It's complicated.

This is true in theory, but the narrator is a non-entity. Without any kind of personality or defining characteristic, characters default to being the mouthpiece of the author. The author has a lengthy list of stories that go out of their way to humiliate and remove the agency of women. Most of his stories feature more colorful and more present male protagonists, and the fact that this story features a shallower MMC AND significantly more damaging abuse to the FMC is telling.

I think we can infer from the story that Daniella is a person with a significant degree of agency in her life, but several of the comments are correct that she doesn't show much of it in this story. That seems to turn on the narrator, for whatever reason. Perhaps the author could have plumbed the "why" of those feelings in greater depth. But exploring those feelings in the story isn't something the author should feel bad about.

Now you're talking about giving the author credit for your head canon, which Bramblethorn alluded to earlier. For all the story has told you, Danielle could have a rich, influential father (whom she idolizes) who paid for her school, hand picked her advisors, funded her startup, whose conservationist streak inspired Daniella's love of lions, and whose overseas business contacts enabled this tiny, two person startup with an ultra-niche product to get a face-to-face meeting with potential customers on another continent. There's no agency in this equally-applicable make-believe background, and given the way Daniella handles the only real conflict tl be found (by freezing up like a deer in headlights) I think it's fair to say that my uncharitable head canon is at least as applicable as yours, if not moreso.

 

[b7ffh1]

> Something I think some people are missing in their critique of the story is that b7ffh1's story isn't about Daniella's kink, it's about the husband James's kink. He's the narrator and the POV character. The story isn't so much about Daniella as it is about how he feels about Daniella. I'm sure that male fantasy perspective -- admiring his capable wife but finding her humiliation arousing -- is uncomfortable for many women readers. But I don't think you can infer he hates her, or that his story hates her. It's complicated.

This is exactly it. SimonDoom in this comment and your earlier comment, you exactly nailed the kink of my story.

> If I want to write about objectifying and humiliating women (Human Resource, My Black Sheep 2), I will. If I want to write about women with rape fantasies (Human Resource, My Black Sheep 2), I will. If I want to write sibling incest (My Black Sheep 1 and 2, Folie a Deux et al) or Parent-Child incest (Fetish), I will. If I want to write about sex workers (Work in Progress), I will. If I want to write about non-consent (Dark Horse, My Black Sheep), I will.

AMD, I read through the Dark Horse, which is the only series categorized as non-consent. It is really dark. It is approaching Abu Ghraib levels of dehumanization and targeted psychological breakdown. There is kidnapping, restraint, stripping, beatings, rape, forced feedings, and de-personalization. In the end, Velvet ends up enjoying, but it seems in much the same way as someone who had been in one of North Korea's camps, might emerge thinking that the Kim Jong Un is the greatest human being ever -- they have been psychologically broken down and "brain washed".

I do have one question: If the Dark Horse story was changed so it was exactly the same, except the kidnapper and abuser was a man, what would be your reaction to that story? What if instead of Ms. Winters kidnapping and abusing Velvet, it was Mr. Winters?

 

[AwkwardMD]

AMD, I read through the Dark Horse, which is the only series categorized as non-consent. It is really dark. It is approaching Abu Ghraib levels of dehumanization and targeted psychological breakdown. There is kidnapping, restraint, stripping, beatings, rape, forced feedings, and de-personalization. In the end, Velvet ends up enjoying, but it seems in much the same way as someone who had been in one of North Korea's camps, might emerge thinking that the Kim Jong Un is the greatest human being ever -- they have been psychologically broken down and "brain washed".

I do have one question: If the Dark Horse story was changed so it was exactly the same, except the kidnapper and abuser was a man, what would be your reaction to that story? What if instead of Ms. Winters kidnapping and abusing Velvet, it was Mr. Winters?

It's not really that simple. A lot of story choices are tied intrinsically to Ms. Winters being a woman. Her method of indoctrination, drugs, isolation and praise, dietary restriction, and physical exhaustion with Velvet was carefully designed to build an devout enforcer, because Ms. Winters is not a physically imposing rapist and she wanted a whole herd. She does not possess the strength, animal cunning, or the plumbing to rape at will. She plays a manipulation game to keep everyone in line, and she's good at it. At a certain point (in the second half, titled Tales from the Ranch), she doesn't need to lock their cells because she's "won them over".

You could do that, inserting a male character in her place, but I think that you would have to try harder to write that man going out of his way to "appear" to be doing this for their own good without taking forceful control, in the way that men typically top during sex.

Also, by the end of the story, and this is key, Ms. Winters kidnaps a transwoman (whom she masculinizes to some degree), two cis women, and one cis male (whom she feminizes to some degree). It is brutal, yes (the comparison to Abu Grahib is paying me a huge compliment), but it is equal opportunity. It isn't a story about being brutal to women and is more an exploration of the effects of brutality on the psyche.

Or, at least, that's what we were going for.

EDIT: I have often said, in this thread, that "I have written darker" than some of the stories I review when it was suggested that I simply don't have the stomach for noncon, and I'm really glad that someone finally looked up whether or not that might be true.

EDIT the second: FWIW, it is slightly more accurate to say that Velvet is Intersex and trans, but that is a dis5inction that is getting deep into the weeds

 

[AwkwardMD]

I really hope you'll give the sequel story a chance. The tone of it is very different from the first three chapters. It builds on that foundation of brutality, but becomes almost more of a dark sitcom.

If you want a good example of brutal noncon with a male rapist, my friend AmoryParks wrote a story called Isolated Property that does a much better job than genderswapping Ms. Winters would

 

[b7ffh1]

Thank you for linking Isolated Property. I think it serves as a much better discussion point than a hypothetical Dark Horse with a male kidnapper.

First of all, I am not seeing much agency at all on the part of Avery. All her scheming, all her planning, all her weapons training, all her martial arts skills, are nothing compared to the strength, cunning, and skill of her jealous ex. Not only that, the story implies that it will always be the case, and there is nothing and no one in the world that can stop that. She will always be at his mercy. The whole restraints are about completely removing her agency and leaving her completely at his mercy to do with and use as he wants at his own leisure. All her attempts to fight back, at most leave him mostly unscathed. The story almost revels in the male's utter power over this female.

In addition, it is eroticizing a very common and horrible occurrence. A good portion, if not the majority of women murdered, are murdered by partners or ex-partners. I have visited women's shelters and personally known women who struggled to get away from a jealous ex, and even when away the continued fear that he would somehow find her or find a way to hurt her. That feeling of being trapped and hopeless that the story exudes is kind of a turnoff for me.

I think most women would much rather be in Daniella's circumstance than in Avery's.

If I could change the story according to my kink and preferences, I would have had Avery have a current boyfriend she takes to the cabin to have some time together. The story would have been told from the boyfriend's perspective of being tied up himself, and forced to watch all this unfold. (Maybe she gave him the keys and told him to go up on ahead, and she would follow). I would have had Avery arranged beforehand for a SWAT team to show up, which would have come in at the end, broken down the door, and shot and killed the abuser, freeing Avery from him forever, so she can resume control of her life.

Although some may see my stories coming off as hating women, but for the characters in my story, I don't want them to suffer permanent harm. As SimonDoom mentions, part of the kink is a male witnessing someone he loves and admires such as wife/girlfriend/(and mom in one instance) undergo significant humiliation in a one time event. (In one of my earlier reviews, "A Keen Sense of Obligation" you said it was in the neighborhood of cuckold stories, and I think the underlying psychology of the kink is not that dissimilar, in that the man is witnessing something that he hates and detests and yet despite that (or because of that?) he can't help getting turned on). But I actually detest slavery and creating lifelong fear in the woman.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[yibala2]

Although I largely agree with AMD's review, IMO the central problem with Danielle and the Lions is that neither of the characters are plausible. They are instruments of the plot - nothing more.

Not every character has to have agency, and not every story has to have a 'positive' message. But if the characters come off as contrived, then all that is left to the story is the message. In Danielle and the Lions, the kink is the message. Any smart, creative woman with a black belt in Tae Kwan Do can be stripped, humiliated and rendered helpless in minutes in front of a crowd of strangers. That's the message. Instead of acting like realistic people, both Danielle and her husband act in ways that further that message. The upshot is that the readers who appreciate the story will generally be only those that find the message to be erotic.

Until the airport scene there is no sexual tension, no hint that either Dani or the husband are excited by this kink, no eroticism at all. There's no insight into either of these people beyond the machinations necessary to get them under the control of a man who wants to take her down. Then she is assaulted. Most people have interpreted the airport encounter as entirely nonconsensual (i.e., not secretly desired, nor silently enjoyed) because the story doesn't provide enough information to conclude otherwise. Instead of writing that dimension of Danielle's character, the writer gave us (IMO implausible) physical reactions ('instinctive' acts, forced orgasms) that would heighten the eroticism of the kink, but were never built up and established as part of Danielle's character.

One way to write plausible characters is to show them dealing with the likely and immediate consequences of an event like this. For the characters as they are written, the most believable consequences are that Danielle's business suffers (because it reminds her of being humiliated and rendered completely helpless) and that their marriage suffers because both Danielle and her husband each struggle to convince the other that they didn't really enjoy it, that there's nothing they could have done to stop it. To have the couple walk away feeling lucky, proud and successful instead of traumatized shatters any sort of plausibility.

I think perhaps all of the posters involved in this discussion can appreciate a story about a kink we don't share, because we admire other aspects of it. Particularly if we believe the story and find the characters believable and engaging. For me, this was not that kind of story.

Yib

 

[Emirus]

Thank you so much for taking the time to review my story, especially as this is a genre that don't particularly like. I would also like to thank you for the reviews and comments in the past. Your feedback has helped my improve my writing.

That being said, this review came across as kink-shaming and a personal attack on me and the readers of my stories. The previous reviews, though they were tough, were mostly about how I could make my writing stronger, more real and immersive, and weaknesses in the plot. Those criticisms were valuable in helping me grow as a writer. However, this review did not have those kind of criticisms, but rather criticized the kink that the story represents.

Every writer, unless they are exceptionally arrogant and egotistical, want readers to comment on their stories whether they consider the story good or bad. When someone who didn’t like the story leaves a comment saying “the biggest load of s*** I’ve ever read” that isn’t helpful at all. If they continued with “because of...etc” that’s helpful.

But that isn’t the same as asking AMD to review your story. You are asking for her, as an experienced writer, to read your story and afterwards to review it. You expect her to say not only what she liked about it, if anything, but more than that to say what, in her opinion, was wrong with it and very importantly how, in her opinion, the story could be improved. Because that’s the most important thing to a writer wanting a story reviewed. To actually get constructive advice. Otherwise there’s no point in either asking for advice or not giving it.

If you’re not going to give constructive advice you shouldn’t offer to review stories.

I think that’s what appears to be b7ffh1’s gripe. I can sympathise because something similar happened to me so, if anyone wants to accuse me of bias, go ahead. Some time ago I asked AMD to review one of my stories and she hated it. But didn’t give any constructive advice as to how I could have improved it.

I responded because from some of her comments it was evident she’d skimmed the story because some of what she’d criticised didn’t exist. I got it off my chest and hoped she would respond. She did. Her response was “Okay,” which was the response b7ffh1 received,and which I thought was rude, arrogant and dismissive and indicated she didn’t want to respond because she had no acceptable and justifiable response to the points I’d raised.

I’m not a regular reader of this column, far from it, and I’m sure many of her reviews contain not only criticism but also constructive advice. But any reviewer, not just AMD, has to be consistent and if they offer constructive advice to one they must do so to everyone.

AMD is entitled to her opinion, as is everyone else, but has to be able to justify her views.
**********

RAPED:
As for how did it get past Laurel I can’t comment on that aspect because I haven’t read the story. But there doesn’t seem to be any consistency in the application of the rule a rape victim has to enjoy it. I’ve never been raped but I wouldn’t believe any woman who said she’d been raped and enjoyed it. I’ve read stories in which the rape victim didn’t express enjoyment and yet they’ve been published.

I submitted a story in which a sadistic transsexual hooker, who also recorded sessions for the purpose of blackmail, raped a sad little man and it was refused because he didn’t enjoy it. I added the words “could I come back to see you again sometime, please,” and it was accepted. Yet it was obvious in the story he couldn’t possibly have enjoyed it.

**********

 

[Bramblethorn]

Thank you for linking Isolated Property. I think it serves as a much better discussion point than a hypothetical Dark Horse with a male kidnapper.

First of all, I am not seeing much agency at all on the part of Avery. All her scheming, all her planning, all her weapons training, all her martial arts skills, are nothing compared to the strength, cunning, and skill of her jealous ex. Not only that, the story implies that it will always be the case, and there is nothing and no one in the world that can stop that. She will always be at his mercy. The whole restraints are about completely removing her agency and leaving her completely at his mercy to do with and use as he wants at his own leisure. All her attempts to fight back, at most leave him mostly unscathed. The story almost revels in the male's utter power over this female.

FWIW, I'd agree with this much...

I think most women would much rather be in Daniella's circumstance than in Avery's.

Perhaps so, but they're both pretty awful and traumatising. Daniella is raped in public, by a man who has the power to make her disappear. He gets interrupted just before he rapes her with his dick, but she's already been raped. She doesn't even get a chance to shower and clean herself up before being bundled onto the flight home; she has to sit there on the plane for hours with the memory of his touch.

If I were her, the message I'm taking from this is not "I got myself out of this" but "If a powerful guy wants to have me, I can't stop him - I only got lucky this time because of the intervention of a different powerful guy, and there's no guarantee I'll be lucky again next time".

If I'm rating nonconsensual content on a scale from 1 to 10, where 1 = rainbows and kittens through to 10 = most traumatic experience I've seen described on Literotica... for the sake of argument, I'd put Isolated Property at maybe an 8/10 and Daniella and the Lions at a 7/10.

But Isolated Property knows it's an 8/10. You're absolutely right that Avery lacks agency, and that's part of the horror of the story, but it's told for her experience and the author uses that to make it very clear how awful the experience is for her, even if her body's responding. Nobody is going to come away from that story thinking "well I guess that wasn't so bad for her".

To me, DatL comes across as a 7/10 that thinks it's a 3/10. You've described the sort of experience that leaves people with long-lasting trauma, and then in the last few paragraphs you've put a band-aid on that, so that Daniella seems to have processed it and moved on within the space of a plane flight.

My discomfort here, and I think some of the other commenters are coming from the same place, is not that it's a 7/10 but that it doesn't seem to be aware of this.

Although some may see my stories coming off as hating women, but for the characters in my story, I don't want them to suffer permanent harm.

I think part of what you're running up against here is that several of us feel like the events you've described in DatL almost certainly would cause permanent harm. Yet at the end of it, Daniella seems to recover completely, almost instantly.

I think each of the critics here is responding to that same dissonance, though we don't all have quite the same take on it. I haven't read your other stories and I'm not going to assign motives to you. I can believe that this is coming from a place of kindness where you want your characters to get happy endings. But as written, it's easy for that happy ending to come across as downplaying the awfulness of what's just happened to Daniella.

 

[HappySpouse]

Is there a doctor in the house?

Doctor Awkward, I don't know if you're taking new patients or have any appointments available, but I could use your help.

You see, I have this story that I wrote. I think I fiddled with it too much and it lost its mojo. It landed in Loving Wives (and the main character is loved and loving), so I'm not too surprised it had some bad reviews, but it took a beating even compared to my other stories in there. I was lucky enough to have two beta readers, and I made a lot of changes based on their extraordinarily helpful feedback. However, what I ended up with is a better story that was not as well written.

It's called Keep the Blindfold On, and it's a bisexual wife's lesbian journey. It may or may not be too late for this patient, but your medical advise could save many future stories.

Thanks for your consideration.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

IMO the central problem with Danielle and the Lions is that neither of the characters are plausible.

To have the couple walk away feeling lucky, proud and successful instead of traumatized shatters any sort of plausibility.

I think perhaps all of the posters involved in this discussion can appreciate a story about a kink we don't share, because we admire other aspects of it. Particularly if we believe the story and find the characters believable and engaging. For me, this was not that kind of story.

Yib

I largely agree with your post and observations, Yib, and agree that most of the posters here are willing to get involved/discuss/appreciate a story even if it’s a kink we don’t share. However, I think that it’s also important to keep in mind that many of these elements you mention are just part of the ENF genre: the fantasy element, the HEA, the lack of negative consequences… often, these characters aren’t very plausible and the scenario is usually just some ill-contrived one off to get the characters in the same place for the disrobing/humiliation….

If you guys will permit me to wax nostalgic for a paragraph. Growing up, the doujinshi (its kanji is too complex for me to remember its name) that introduced me to ENF was about a group of cheerleaders (co-ed squad). The head cheerleader (male) stole the bloomers of the shyest girl. To “cover her up”, the other girls painted her nether regions with lipstick. The squad did a halftime show for a packed stadium and tons of photographers—and of course, did a routine with tons of high kicks. The ENF, who til then has been suuuper shy and reserved, hopes people can tell she’s got nothing on. The other cheerleaders, guys and girls, all know the circumstances and are turned on. The ENF is still embarrassed but also is reeeeally turned on; when the head cheerleader lifts her into a split above his head, she cums all over him. There's no aftermath, no consequences: because theoretically, in this fantasy world, there was no “violation”—instead, ENF is a less shy/more fun girl (ie, a “better” person).

Regardless of any other technical writing developments where b7ffh1 could improve, a lot of his (her?) stories nail that core dynamic of fantasy, power play, HEA etc in this genre. B7fhh1 has one story about a Hawaiian vacation (don’t recall the name) where the CMNF/ENF works well: the FMC and MMC husband are tricked into thinking that they have to submit to a random drug search. In the process of the search, random male characters from the hotel keep showing up to watch—it’s like the way characters keep popping up to the end of Act II of Mozart’s The Marriage of Figaro. During all this, the FMC is so embarrassed that the male staff, the “DEA agent”, people on the beach and others are all watching her expose herself—and then, she starts to enjoy both being on display and the embarrassment. Her husband enjoys it too.

But the differences in DatL illustrates that in C*N* and EN*, enjoyment is arguably THE critical element: without it, the embarrassed character has no agency/autonomy over what’s happening to them. Without that, the rest of the scenario falls into something totally different. Without the enjoyment, there’s not a fantasy aspect to these outrageous stakes, no fun in the humiliation or the viewers’ sexual response to the humiliation, no HEA and no lack of consequences. And personally, that’s where my critical feedback is coming from: I’ve asked (gotten no response) why B7ffh1 changed his (her) usual style? I’m not trying to suggest that all CMNF has to be cheerleaders and light fluff; but by changing these elements up to take out the enjoyment, DatL is an assault story.

In the end, Velvet ends up enjoying, but it seems in much the same way as someone who had been in one of North Korea's camps, might emerge thinking that the Kim Jong Un is the greatest human being ever -- they have been psychologically broken down and "brain washed".

Simply from the “rules” standpoint: Dark Horse and Isolated Property illustrate how dark non-con can pass muster with the “modicum of enjoyment” requirement for the site. Non-con on Lit does not have to be thinly veiled romance stories or fake-rape, and ENF doesn’t have to be bimbo cheerleaders doing splits without bloomers. It can be disturbing and intense: the type of plots that it seems like you’re interested in. But on Lit, there has to either be discernible “enjoyment” or exemplary literary value beyond the prurience of the non-con acts.

Like AMD explained above, use your kink to service the story. IMHO, I still think that the main issue with your storytelling is that you have big, expositional ideas that you set out in draft-style without sufficient development, which you’re merely using as the gateway to the CMNF scene. It seems like you want to write things that are deeper/more developed/beyond stroke material. If so, you would do well to slow down and develop the actual plot points of your story. Especially when the ideas have some intrigue to them, like the plot points of DatL do.

Isolated Property knows it's an 8/10.

To me, DatL comes across as a 7/10 that thinks it's a 3/10.

My discomfort here, and I think some of the other commenters are coming from the same place, is not that it's a 7/10 but that it doesn't seem to be aware of this.

This.

Without enjoyment etc, the fantasy and HEA of ENF style aren’t in this story, and thus its events come off as trauma.

I'm sure that male fantasy perspective -- admiring his capable wife but finding her humiliation arousing -- is uncomfortable for many women readers. But I don't think you can infer he hates her, or that his story hates her. It's complicated.

https://imgur.com/lRi61gV.gif

This isn’t a gender/reception issue (should “gender-shaming” also be a new term along with “reviewer-shaming”?) it’s just a story development issue....

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'm Your Valentine by RuebenR

Link

Holy shit. This is two scenes, 4400 words, and not one bit of it is wasted. I’m Your Valentine really evoked a strong reaction in me when I read it, and I’m glad I’ve had a few days to be able to process it to respond because it’s helped me see how intentional that was.

It’s focused. It’s purposeful. I hated Lou, and although I initially projected that on the story, I was eventually able to recognize that you crafted that reaction in me very purposefully! That's awesome!

This story knows what it is, and it doesn’t pull any punches. It captures Tsibekti’s frustration and fear as she’s systematically cornered by someone who has power over her. Even though she has absolutely no leverage and he has all the power, she comes across as so human. She’s been pushed into something she desperately doesn’t want to do by someone who is only partially aware of the damage he’s doing.

It’s a tough line to walk to make your characters unaware of their own motivations while still making it absolutely clear what is happening. This story is a fantastic example of Authorial Endorsement. It owns what it is, and that’s so cool! The opening scene, where Tsibekti is raped, is 2200 words, while the follow up scene, where Tsibekti tries to make Lou understand what he’s done to her, is ~1800 words. That is the literary equivalent of making mashed potatoes with one stick of butter per 3 potatoes; super rich. The power structures at work here, with her being a refugee, are subtle and hinted at through dialog rather than force-fed to us in exposition.

I think that, if you’re looking for a reason why this didn’t make a bigger splash in the noncon category, it’s noncon that’s executed through manipulation and an abstract hierarchy (like her citizenship needs). These are more cerebral motivations that require a bit more gray matter, and that generally isn’t what the noncon crowd wants. They want animal. They want tears. They want an accidental pregnancy afterwards.

I do not think that those things would fit this story. I think, given what you were going for, the motivations you chose and the way the scene unfolds were the superior choices. I loved the way Lou kept alternating between telling Tsibekta how much she was enjoying it and asking how much she was enjoying it, because it was such a pitch perfect way to show how out of touch he was with what he was doing to her.

Personally, I am way more interested in a story that takes itself seriously and explores its subject matter with honesty and open eyes than I am in a story that does well and scores high by playing to the lowest common denominator or the most popular tropes.

Kudos!

I think that the next step for you is to use this as a template to tell a story in a category like Romance, Interracial, or First Time that has this kind of intensity, with characters that are exploding off the page with relatability and compassion, because those readerships will get you on your level. They’ll be more appreciative of the kind of care and craft that you’re putting in here.

I hope that, at the end of the day, you feel like you made something really good here. Like, it's all well and good that I'm impressed and that I like it, but I'm nobody. I'm a random sobriquet with a foxy avatar on the internet. I'm not worth the effort to impress. What really matters is how you feel about it, and whether you think this was a worthwhile experiment in style.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Body and Soul by NoJo

Link

It’s clever af. Also, no anti-semetism this time! Huzzah!

I have dealt with infidelity myself, and I felt a lot of connection to the way you wrote Peter and Angela’s interactions. Their listlessness in the face of a relationship that had run its course struck a chord in me. I especially liked the way you expanded the scope of the story as it went along to include the ways Peter and Angela’s failed relationship affected Zoe, Zoe’s mom, and Jesse, because these kinds of things always have splash damage

I enjoyed the way that, as the marriage was falling apart, the narrator was simultaneously deconstructing colloquialisms. It was a great metaphor for the untethered feeling that comes with the death of an important relationship. You look at your house and think things like “This used to mean so much to me”, and in the next breath question a turn of phrase you’ve used a thousand times before. For Pete’s sake? Who is Pete? It’s like having your eyes open for the first time, and seeing things for what they are.

I don’t have a lot to say about this one because, while it’s unwholesomely strong, it also isn’t the kind of story that builds to anything and I don’t think it should be. Like, under different circumstances I’d be making suggestions as to how you could foreshadow better, or create throughlines that connect the structure of the scenes into a tighter web, but that wasn’t the point here. This was something different. Something… cathartic.

I see that. I respect that.

 

[b7ffh1]

You have finally broken through my thick head. Thank you for explaining it so well. I ended up with this story in the uncanny valley. As I was going through the story, I think I got up in describing the assault so much, that I did not see how I could have her enjoy this, without breaking the realism. So I ended up with a weird chimera of a very dark story, shoved into the box of the lightweight ENF. And it came off horribly.

By the way the story about the vacation is "Checked out at checkout"

AMD, thanks again for taking the time to read the story, and provide your feedback. I apologize for misreading it as an attack.

I have submitted the story for deletion. I am planning on doing a revision that addresses the issues that have been brought up.

If it is ok, I plan on making a request for review, once I am done with the new version and it is in place.

If there is anyone reading, who would be interested in acting as an editor before the new submission, please contact me.

Thanks again to everyone who offered their thoughts and insights on this story.

I largely agree with your post and observations, Yib, and agree that most of the posters here are willing to get involved/discuss/appreciate a story even if it’s a kink we don’t share. However, I think that it’s also important to keep in mind that many of these elements you mention are just part of the ENF genre: the fantasy element, the HEA, the lack of negative consequences… often, these characters aren’t very plausible and the scenario is usually just some ill-contrived one off to get the characters in the same place for the disrobing/humiliation….

If you guys will permit me to wax nostalgic for a paragraph. Growing up, the doujinshi (its kanji is too complex for me to remember its name) that introduced me to ENF was about a group of cheerleaders (co-ed squad). The head cheerleader (male) stole the bloomers of the shyest girl. To “cover her up”, the other girls painted her nether regions with lipstick. The squad did a halftime show for a packed stadium and tons of photographers—and of course, did a routine with tons of high kicks. The ENF, who til then has been suuuper shy and reserved, hopes people can tell she’s got nothing on. The other cheerleaders, guys and girls, all know the circumstances and are turned on. The ENF is still embarrassed but also is reeeeally turned on; when the head cheerleader lifts her into a split above his head, she cums all over him. There's no aftermath, no consequences: because theoretically, in this fantasy world, there was no “violation”—instead, ENF is a less shy/more fun girl (ie, a “better” person).

Regardless of any other technical writing developments where b7ffh1 could improve, a lot of his (her?) stories nail that core dynamic of fantasy, power play, HEA etc in this genre. B7fhh1 has one story about a Hawaiian vacation (don’t recall the name) where the CMNF/ENF works well: the FMC and MMC husband are tricked into thinking that they have to submit to a random drug search. In the process of the search, random male characters from the hotel keep showing up to watch—it’s like the way characters keep popping up to the end of Act II of Mozart’s The Marriage of Figaro. During all this, the FMC is so embarrassed that the male staff, the “DEA agent”, people on the beach and others are all watching her expose herself—and then, she starts to enjoy both being on display and the embarrassment. Her husband enjoys it too.

But the differences in DatL illustrates that in C*N* and EN*, enjoyment is arguably THE critical element: without it, the embarrassed character has no agency/autonomy over what’s happening to them. Without that, the rest of the scenario falls into something totally different. Without the enjoyment, there’s not a fantasy aspect to these outrageous stakes, no fun in the humiliation or the viewers’ sexual response to the humiliation, no HEA and no lack of consequences. And personally, that’s where my critical feedback is coming from: I’ve asked (gotten no response) why B7ffh1 changed his (her) usual style? I’m not trying to suggest that all CMNF has to be cheerleaders and light fluff; but by changing these elements up to take out the enjoyment, DatL is an assault story.



Simply from the “rules” standpoint: Dark Horse and Isolated Property illustrate how dark non-con can pass muster with the “modicum of enjoyment” requirement for the site. Non-con on Lit does not have to be thinly veiled romance stories or fake-rape, and ENF doesn’t have to be bimbo cheerleaders doing splits without bloomers. It can be disturbing and intense: the type of plots that it seems like you’re interested in. But on Lit, there has to either be discernible “enjoyment” or exemplary literary value beyond the prurience of the non-con acts.

Like AMD explained above, use your kink to service the story. IMHO, I still think that the main issue with your storytelling is that you have big, expositional ideas that you set out in draft-style without sufficient development, which you’re merely using as the gateway to the CMNF scene. It seems like you want to write things that are deeper/more developed/beyond stroke material. If so, you would do well to slow down and develop the actual plot points of your story. Especially when the ideas have some intrigue to them, like the plot points of DatL do.



This.

Without enjoyment etc, the fantasy and HEA of ENF style aren’t in this story, and thus its events come off as trauma.



https://imgur.com/lRi61gV.gif

This isn’t a gender/reception issue (should “gender-shaming” also be a new term along with “reviewer-shaming”?) it’s just a story development issue....

 

[AwkwardMD]

Briefly, by template I meant more the changes in narrative style than the content.

Will respond to more later.

 

[NoJo]

Link



I see that. I respect that.

Damn hoped you'd get wet

 

[AwkwardMD]

When its time to party I will always party hard

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1b/Andrewwet.jpeg

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

I understand that Tsibekti’s way of dealing with Lou, the second time, is questionable. Is she too kind for him? Is it realistic that she kept the higher ground the way she did; that she acted the way she acted despite all the feelings she must have had against him?

If Lou had been receptive for her advances and acted cooperative, she would have called him out as a cheater; but instead, he tried to resist her, so possibly a lesson had been learned.

I’m Your Valentine strongly reminded me of Kristen Roupenian’s infamous ‘Cat Person’, in the way you explored the fine line of consent, the disturbing compilation of things a man both assumes and ignores when he’s attracted to a woman, the frightening realities that women—of all races, countries, religions and socio-economic privilege/disenfrancishement—often face in hetero-relationships, that a man gets (takes) the final say about when and how intercourse will occur.

I thought that the first half of IYV was as well told as any published short story in a major journal. And personally, I thought the exchange about the chicken was the very best part of your story. It was elegant and concise and spoke volumes about the lacking relationship on every level, in a way that paragraphs of expositional background about cultural differences and residency cards and immigrant experience couldn’t have matched (...or, perhaps, being Catholic, I immediately understood what you were alluding to).

A lot of your writing has that same skillfulness of knowing just how much to not say. A scene in Ethiopia Dream comes to mind, where your FMC is having her hair braided—I’ve mentioned before how much I admired the poetry of that scene.

However, I thought the second half of IYV phoned it in. The second Valentine’s Day started beautifully, with Tsibekti showing up unexpectedly, sharing her meal with Lou. But then, to me, the second half of the story was questionable: I thought it jumped the shark when Tsubekti became the aggressor in her effort to “teach” Lou about the gravity of what he’d done to her.

In Roupenian’s Cat Person, the denouement is the aftermath of the date rape. The FMC ignores the MMC’s calls and texts, and when they run into each other in public, she freezes up. His last text to her is one word: “Whore.” As many critics have lauded, that ending speaks volumes about the unending burdens that date rape puts on a woman, the least of which being the rapist’s indignant expectation that the victim still owes him something.

The first half of IYV understood this dynamic of date rape. It confronted Lou’s actions like a helpless bystander, and dealt with the result and consequences. Like you mentioned in your response to b7fhh1’s Daniella and the Lions: this was about something beyond humiliation or violation—there was silence and uncertainty, and that came through your writing!! The first half of IYV not only confronted rape head on, you also had the depth and nuance to get into the head space of the date rapist: Lou’s feelings of rejection, and disappointment at being misunderstood.

But the second half of the story pandered to that expectation that date rape puts on the victim. When Tsibekti “turns the tables” on Lou in the second half of IYV, Lou’s reluctance to have sex with her—his former romantic interest and current GF’s friend—is not equivalent to her fear and duress experienced on the first Valentine’s Day. IMHO, that was the teachable moment for your readers: that in the real world, there’s nothing practically no plausible way for a cis-woman to inflict on her cis-male rapist the equivalent psychological harm that he’s caused her. There’s no way to realistically recreate physically equivalent circumstances such would leave Lou “understanding and appreciative” of what he did. To me, it seemed you flattened the dynamic that you’d elegantly explored in the first Valentine’s Day just to make Tsibekti the “Cupid”. But in making her the “aggressor-teacher”, you introduced a fantasy element to the story that previously wasn’t present— femdom in its best light, but sexist propaganda at worst.

In the context of a different story, this might not matter at all. But because the first half of your story was so poignantly real, honest and well written, for better or worse, you created an inference that the second half would be equally realistic, without varnish or fantasy and still “pulling all the punches”. It’s a burden on your authorial voice; but I mean it as a compliment.

In the end: Tsibekti was not only raped and left to herself to heal and move on, she also had to play intercessor for her rapist and martyr/protector of her friend. IYV puts all of the worst burdens of modern life on Tsibekti, yet she survives, thrives and continues to care for and heal others. That’s a love story worth celebrating. Thank you for sharing it.

I wish that this story had done better in the Valentine’s Day competition and with reads/votes; it deserves to be read.

I have submitted the story for deletion. I am planning on doing a revision that addresses the issues that have been brought up.

Another option: you could leave DatL on the site until you make your planned revisions, and then resubmit as a new story titled “Daniella and the Lions—Edited”. Laurel will replace the current version and you’ll keep your reads/votes/comments. I look forward to reading the revised story!

 

[b7ffh1]

> Another option: you could leave DatL on the site until you make your planned revisions, and then resubmit as a new story titled “Daniella and the Lions—Edited”. Laurel will replace the current version and you’ll keep your reads/votes/comments. I look forward to reading the revised story!

Good idea, I will do that instead.