Ask the opposite gender.

[TheRedChamber]

Suprised this thread doesn't already exist. (At least I don't remember seeing it and a search didn't turn anything up.)

This thread is not for big philosophical questions or deep discussion on the nature of gender and its expression through sexuality.

Instead it's for those little details that only men or women would know.

I'll get the ball rolling.

WOMEN: You are walking back with someone you've just met from some kind of exercise and you are casually chatting about nothing in particular. You go to shower in the changing rooms. Which of the following applies

a) Taking the shower stall next to them and continuing the conversation would be slightly weird and intrusive.

b) Taking a shower stall over the side of the room would be slightly weird and unfriendly.

c) Some other more advanced shower ettiquette applies.

Since this is Lit, it will surprise absolutely no-one that I want my two protags to end up in neighbouring showers. I'm just not sure to what extent this requires extra writing.

 

[alohadave]

Since this is Lit, it will surprise absolutely no-one that I want my two protags to end up in neighbouring showers. I'm just not sure to what extent this requires extra writing.

It all depends on what the characters would do in the situation. Are they comfortable with each other? Plenty of open stalls?

Since you want them to be next to each other, you could force it externally by only having two stalls next to each other open. Or there are multiple stalls, but some are out of order. Then it's outside their choice.

Behaviorally, are both inclined to shower next to each other? If not, have the more reticent/private one pick a stall first, then the other one showers in the next stall.

Or maybe it's not something they think about and just pick stalls next to each other.

You may not need to address it at all, and just have them take showers.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

What country and environment are they in? Workplace or luxury members gym, or large municipal place?

Big question is whether the showers are a) not separated at all, but you're probably in America so probably unlikely, b) separated by shower curtains, or c)separated by partitions. If it's c and also b, being able to hear over the shower noise is unlikely. But you would if theyre drying off, but in town gyms I'd guess that's antisocial.

Also how many walls of shower cubicles is any leisure centre going to have? I'd guess at women going into two adjacent cubicles but then conversation stops until they get out, unless there's something they can call out. Then you need to decide if it's a place with individual/family changing cubicles or open changing.

 

[Djmac1031]

I'm gonna ask this one in retrospect, because the story in question has already been published.

In a recent Jenna chapter, she borrowed a bikini from their hosts daughter's wardrobe so she could go swimming.

I made a point of stating the bikini had only been worn once before.

But afterwards I wondered about how particular women might actually be when it comes to wearing someone else's wardrobe, particularly something like a bathing suit.

Is that a "thing" for women? Or is it more an individual "thing" regardless of gender when it comes to wearing someone else's clothes.

I know I'd never wear someone's worn underwear, even freshly washed, unless it was an emergency. Jeans and tee shirts, no problem.

Bathing suit? I'd question.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Big question is whether the showers are a) not separated at all, but you're probably in America so probably unlikely.

Unfortunately, while I'm deeply offended you don't know I'm British, the story actually is set in America so I can't complain too much.

Okay microscopic level of detail...

Character 1:
50 years old. Television producer. Tough, no nonsense. Has worked in roles where nudity was a requirement. Showering as has long day and has time before a flight.

Character 2:
20 years old. Shy. Only lost virginity (to a man) four weeks previously. Simultaneously scared of and eager to please character one. Showering because just done two hours solid cheerleading practice.

Setting:
Changing rooms attached to American Football field/Cheerleader at university with big football team. Squad of cheerleaders is 25 strong. Starting to get dark and no-one else around or likely to come in. I was imagining cubicles with no curtains, but whatever makes the story work.

EDIT:
Maybe a 'conversation' isn't needed in the traditional sense, but they may shout out various little things regarding say shampoo or how you need to set the taps just right to get a tolerable temperature of water until we get to 'Could you come rub soap on my back' as a blatent come-on and the 70s funk starts.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Unfortunately, while I'm deeply offended you don't know I'm British, the story actually is set in America so I can't complain too much.

Okay microscopic level of detail...

Character 1:
50 years old. Television producer. Tough, no nonsense. Has worked in roles where nudity was a requirement. Showering as has long day and has time before a flight.

Character 2:
20 years old. Shy. Only lost virginity (to a man) four weeks previously. Simultaneously scared of and eager to please character one. Showering because just done two hours solid cheerleading practice.

Setting:
Changing rooms attached to American Football field/Cheerleader at university with big football team. Squad of cheerleaders is 25 strong. Starting to get dark and no-one else around or likely to come in. I was imagining cubicles with no curtains, but whatever makes the story work.

EDIT:
Maybe a 'conversation' isn't needed in the traditional sense, but they may shout out various little things regarding say shampoo or how you need to set the taps just right to get a tolerable temperature of water until we get to 'Could you come rub soap on my back' as a blatent come-on and the 70s funk starts.

Calling out such stuff, especially with noone else about (isn't cheerleading a team thing? What happened to all the others?) sounds perfectly normal.

I have no idea what the usual college sports facility setup for women is. Cubicles without doors or curtains would be most unusual in England - either it's open showers with no division between shower heads, or curtains all round, or cubicles with doors like for toilet stalls.

If woman2 is young and shy she's not going to be lured out easily, and if it's open-plan changing - I think the norm for changing rooms in college, then she may want to change in the toilet stall. Especially if woman1 is a bit intimidating and prancing about naked.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I'm gonna ask this one in retrospect, because the story in question has already been published.

In a recent Jenna chapter, she borrowed a bikini from their hosts daughter's wardrobe so she could go swimming.

I made a point of stating the bikini had only been worn once before.

But afterwards I wondered about how particular women might actually be when it comes to wearing someone else's wardrobe, particularly something like a bathing suit.

Is that a "thing" for women? Or is it more an individual "thing" regardless of gender when it comes to wearing someone else's clothes.

I know I'd never wear someone's worn underwear, even freshly washed, unless it was an emergency. Jeans and tee shirts, no problem.

Bathing suit? I'd question.

'Only worn once' as in unwashed? That's minging.

Or do you mean worn once since it was brand new, and it's clean?

Either way, most people would feel like you and not do it unless it was an emergency, or being really helpful. Unless the person they were borrowing off happened to be someone they put their face in the crotch of already, but even then a dirty bikini...

Though it's a bikini, so a quick rinse in water would render it 'clean'. Ish. If you really needed a bikini.

 

[TheRedChamber]

What gender are these people? Or have you left that intentionally obscure? I think I may be missing the point but I did read it three times trying to find pronouns.

As KQ says, age/social status is a factor if it's two women. Also prancing - eew! We tend to be in an out of showers pdq so less chat.

Err, well this is awkward. The literal first word of my question is women all in capital letters.

Calling out such stuff, especially with noone else about (isn't cheerleading a team thing? What happened to all the others?) sounds perfectly normal.

I'm in danger of writing the whole story out backwards starting from chapter five so just rest assured that she's been delayed long enough that the rest of the team is long gone.

I have no idea what the usual college sports facility setup for women is. Cubicles without doors or curtains would be most unusual in England - either it's open showers with no division between shower heads, or curtains all round, or cubicles with doors like for toilet stalls.

If woman2 is young and shy she's not going to be lured out easily, and if it's open-plan changing - I think the norm for changing rooms in college, then she may want to change in the toilet stall. Especially if woman1 is a bit intimidating and prancing about naked.

Let's says she's been cheerleading long enough that she is comfortable getting changed in a open-plan space and is more worried about offending character 1 than she is intimidated.

I suppose the easy answer to all this is to have character 2 choose a stall first and then have character 1 roll up next to her.

In a male space a guy would probably think 'oh aye, what's all this?' . (and things are indeed heading in this direction) I'm just not sure how it plays for the same for ladies.

 

[Djmac1031]

Unfortunately, while I'm deeply offended you don't know I'm British, the story actually is set in America so I can't complain too much.

Okay microscopic level of detail...

Character 1:
50 years old. Television producer. Tough, no nonsense. Has worked in roles where nudity was a requirement. Showering as has long day and has time before a flight.

Character 2:
20 years old. Shy. Only lost virginity (to a man) four weeks previously. Simultaneously scared of and eager to please character one. Showering because just done two hours solid cheerleading practice.

Setting:
Changing rooms attached to American Football field/Cheerleader at university with big football team. Squad of cheerleaders is 25 strong. Starting to get dark and no-one else around or likely to come in. I was imagining cubicles with no curtains, but whatever makes the story work.

EDIT:
Maybe a 'conversation' isn't needed in the traditional sense, but they may shout out various little things regarding say shampoo or how you need to set the taps just right to get a tolerable temperature of water until we get to 'Could you come rub soap on my back' as a blatent come-on and the 70s funk starts.

Okay, so: my job has me inside various buildings including high school and college locker rooms. No students in them when I'm working, obviously.

I mostly see individual shower stalks, with curtains, but I have also seen a few communal showers that offer little personal privacy.

So I don't think it would be a stretch that, in a sporting type arena, that the locker room for 25 plus cheerleaders would feature a large, communal shower. They would, after all, be used to working and changing together on a regular basis.

So I think you'd be fine creating a setting where both your characters showering together in full view of each other.


Your other option is individual stalls, and switch the shyness / nudity factor to just when they're undressing, or after the shower where one is openly comfortable flaunting her nudity while drying off etc.

 

[Djmac1031]

Only worn once' as in unwashed? That's minging.

Or do you mean worn once since it was brand new, and it's clean?

The daughter wore the suit only one time. Her father saw it on her, thought it too revealing, and forbade her to wear it again.

The suit was cleaned, put away, and forgotten about.

The whole swimming thing is spontaneous, not planned. Otherwise my characters would have brought their own suits.

So I kinda needed both of them to just roll with borrowing suits from their hosts

 

[EmilyMiller]

I’m not trying to be snarky, but two things:

1. There is no such thing as what women do, we are individuals and do different stuff
2. There is no user guide or rule book

Write what makes sense to you. I doubt anyone will notice.

Em

 

[Euphony]

Casually signals to me this isn't a discussion with immediacy so interloping tasks would usually force social moiré "breaks."

With that said, it's now up to the author how they negotiate around that pole.

If the initiating girl risks accesses her furthering conversation won't be seen as wanted interest but uneasy pressure, she'd naturally avoid it.

To me, emotional context trumps over societal defaults.

In this specific instance, continuing the convo seems naturally out of place. Use that context to bounce off as your story needs.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I’m not trying to be snarky, but two things:

1. There is no such thing as what women do, we are individuals and do different stuff
2. There is no user guide or rule book

Write what makes sense to you. I doubt anyone will notice.

Em

There are, though, certain conventions that govern behavior for most people and these can vary by gender.

The classic example in Britain at least would be that, in a pub setting, men in the same table never go to the lavatory together. No one knows why or when this started, but if you're three pints in and just starting to think you need a Jimmy riddle and your mate gets up to go two seconds before you, then that's it. You're are stuck with your legs crossed for the next five minutes.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just the way it is.

On the other hand, in a pub setting, women always go to the bathroom together. While we've heard that women who live in close proximity may eventually have their monthly cycles move closer together, we're not entirely sure if it's true. We do however know that after five minutes in a Weatherspoons their bladders are synced up tighter than an atomic clock. We assume it's an ability that evolved to allow them to discuss how obnoxiously drunk we are being, but we're not entirely sure.

My question is based on a case of not knowing what I don't know. If it seems weird, there's probably less social conventions here than there is for men.

 

[EmilyMiller]

There are, though, certain conventions that govern behavior for most people and these can vary by gender.

The classic example in Britain at least would be that, in a pub setting, men in the same table never go to the lavatory together. No one knows why or when this started, but if you're three pints in and just starting to think you need a Jimmy riddle and your mate gets up to go two seconds before you, then that's it. You're are stuck with your legs crossed for the next five minutes.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just the way it is.

On the other hand, in a pub setting, women always go to the bathroom together. While we've heard that women who live in close proximity may eventually have their monthly cycles move closer together, we're not entirely sure if it's true. We do however know that after five minutes in a Weatherspoons their bladders are synced up tighter than an atomic clock. We assume it's an ability that evolved to allow them to discuss how obnoxiously drunk we are being, but we're not entirely sure.

My question is based on a case of not knowing what I don't know. If it seems weird, there's probably less social conventions here than there is for men.

In advance, I’m not trying to be argumentative and not trying to Yanksplain to a Brit, but maybe it’s a generational thing.

I’ve seen Brits boys (to my direct knowledge all heterosexual*) go to the restroom together - even three at a time. Though admittedly most often when we had decided to walk to a different pub.

There are some things that happen more often than not, that’s the basis for stereotypes, but there is no rule book and, for the purposes of your story, don’t worry about it. I doubt anyone else will.

Em

———

* UPDATE: perhaps “not exclusively homosexual” would better fit with my evidence

 

[yowser]

We do however know that after five minutes in a Weatherspoons their bladders are synced up tighter than an atomic clock. We assume it's an ability that evolved to allow them to discuss how obnoxiously drunk we are being, but we're not entirely sure.

Thanks for this. Explains another bit of pub behavior opaque to a clueless American.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

The daughter wore the suit only one time. Her father saw it on her, thought it too revealing, and forbade her to wear it again.

The suit was cleaned, put away, and forgotten about.

The whole swimming thing is spontaneous, not planned. Otherwise my characters would have brought their own suits.

So I kinda needed both of them to just roll with borrowing suits from their hosts

In that case I'd expect the mum to say there's a swimsuit her daughter had bought but wasn't allowed to wear, and it becomes more natural, but yes, if it's explicitly a clean swimsuit it's within the range of things friends do.

Some women might be prissy and not want to wear a suit anyone else had ever worn ever, but I suspect the story involves activities such women wouldn't do either!

 

[Djmac1031]

In that case I'd expect the mum to say there's a swimsuit her daughter had bought but wasn't allowed to wear, and it becomes more natural, but yes, if it's explicitly a clean swimsuit it's within the range of things friends do.

Some women might be prissy and not want to wear a suit anyone else had ever worn ever, but I suspect the story involves activities such women wouldn't do either!

Yeah, during the course of the exchange, the daughters mom explains that the suit was only worn the one time.

I threw that in there specifically because I started worrying about how the average person, but specifically my character, would react to the idea of wearing a "borrowed" bikini.

And how various readers might see that concept .

What's done is done, and the next time they visit, I'm sure my characters will think ahead and bring their own suits.

Unless, of course, everyone decides to just go skinny dipping

 

[TheRedChamber]

I’ve seen Brits boys (to my direct knowledge all heterosexual) go to the restroom together - even three at a time. Though admittedly most often when we had decided to walk to a different pub.

Funnily enough I was going to add that the one exception is when it is firmly established that you are moving on and everyone's got their coat on.

The point is it's not a universal thing. Half time at the football match, you're all heading down for a slash together. You're in a club, you're heading in from the bar and he's heading in from the dance floor - no problem, turning back would be weird. It's just if you announce it and he says 'By love that sounds like a good idea, old chap, mind if I tag along'...

 

[Kumquatqueen]

In advance, I’m not trying to be argumentative and not trying to Yanksplain to a Brit, but maybe it’s a generational thing.

I’ve seen Brits boys (to my direct knowledge all heterosexual) go to the restroom together - even three at a time. Though admittedly most often when we had decided to walk to a different pub.

There are some things that happen more often than not, that’s the basis for stereotypes, but there is no rule book and, for the purposes of your story, don’t worry about it. I doubt anyone else will.

Em

I've been thinking about it, and I think RedChamber is right, for straight men over 30, at least.

Women expect queues so want someone to talk to (back when we didn't have phones to play on, especially), and then you get all the gossip. Who fancies who, who's shagging who, then who's getting married, got pregnant, getting divorced and now at my age what health problems we all have...

I think with men it's partly the idea of not being polite to deprive your mates of too much good company at once - in a large group it's less important,.if only four of you, you'd try to go one at a time. With a side helping of going to the Gents together being a bit gay (this is why I'm not sure, because few of my friends are straight), and in clubs they don't want to share the embarrassment of mumbling rejection to the 'no Armani, no poonani' guy.

If guys do go to the loos together they're either shagging or doing coke. Overgeneralisation, with some truth...

 

[EmilyMiller]

I've been thinking about it, and I think RedChamber is right, for straight men over 30, at least.

My point relates to the emphasis I have added above, these were all students.

My more general point is that a rigorous statistical analysis of whether women occupy showers next to each other might reveal a bias, but not enough that saying something else in a story will be at all distracting to female readers.

You can overthink details (I’m probably guilty of that quite often).

Em

 

[djrip]

I'm gonna ask this one in retrospect, because the story in question has already been published.

In a recent Jenna chapter, she borrowed a bikini from their hosts daughter's wardrobe so she could go swimming.

I made a point of stating the bikini had only been worn once before.

But afterwards I wondered about how particular women might actually be when it comes to wearing someone else's wardrobe, particularly something like a bathing suit.

Is that a "thing" for women? Or is it more an individual "thing" regardless of gender when it comes to wearing someone else's clothes.

I know I'd never wear someone's worn underwear, even freshly washed, unless it was an emergency. Jeans and tee shirts, no problem.

Bathing suit? I'd question.

Funny enough I just had my twin characters trade the clothes they were wearing in my latest, which for one of them was a wet swimsuit she'd just been swimming in. It was supposed to feel a bit awkward, though.

 

[EmilyMiller]

General remark. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that women don’t, as a rule, occupy adjacent cubicles when showering. Does that happen so rigorously that any story mentioning two female characters in adjacent cubicles will ring so false to women readers that they stop reading the otherwise I’m sure riveting story? I’m voting “no”.

Em

 

[TheRedChamber]

I think with men it's partly the idea of not being polite to deprive your mates of too much good company at once - in a large group it's less important,.if only four of you, you'd try to go one at a time. With a side helping of going to the Gents together being a bit gay.

I'd add that using adjacent urinals is also bringing you closer to the other guys bodily functions. Traditionally kept as a private act. We're happy to trade some privacy to avoid those long queues outside the womens, but tagging along and making the act less private seems impolite to your friend.

 

[TheRedChamber]

General remark. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that women don’t, as a rule, occupy adjacent cubicles when showering. Does that happen so rigorously that any story mentioning two female characters in adjacent cubicles will ring so false to women readers that they stop reading the otherwise I’m sure riveting story? I’m voting “no”.

Em

That's what I don't know.

I'd argue that it does happen so rigorously in men's changing rooms that it would ring false, but thinking of women's mutual lavatorial excursions I wasn't so sure.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That's what I don't know.

I'd argue that it does happen so rigorously in men's changing rooms that it would ring false, but thinking of women's mutual lavatorial excursions I wasn't so sure.

I think you’re fine to have them adjacent, hun. This reader would care much more about what they get up to when they are in the same cubicle.

Em