Are You a Burden to Society?

[Boxlicker101]

I'm curious to know what you think of a case like sadangel's, which I think is a textbook illustration of why we need government assistance and universal healthcare. Should people who are the victims of nonpreventable illnesses be left to die in a ditch somewhere so you don't have to pay higher taxes?

Sometimes I complain about lazy good-for-nothings, or drunks or junkies of others who have let themselves become a burden on Society. I have no use for them and the lifestyle they have chosen and continue to choose. JBJ tells us of others, and they may or may not be apocryphal. but they are examples, and I have known people like that.

Then we have others, such as Sadangel and Rob, who have tried to be responsible for their own needs but, through no fault of their own, can no longer do so. Either we put such people on ice floes and push them out to sea or we lock them in warehouses and ignore them or we try to make their lives as endurable as we can. I hate to sound like a bleeding heart, but I believe we have to and should do the last, which would involve financial sujpport and/or subsidized housing and Medicaid. To paraphrase Father Flanagan, "They ain't heavy; they're my brothers and sisters."

 

[DeeZire]

I hope that was a (poor) joke,...

It was a joke - whether it was poor or not would be a matter of opinion.

As you may have noticed, HP, Amicus is very fond of asking liberals why they hate freedom. Since it was his hypocrisy that inspired me to start this thread, I thought it would be fitting to include some of his laughable pomposity in the dialogue.

 

[Hermes13uk]

As a student I am a burden on society as I receive student loans. Though even as a student i've paid a sizable amount of my earning as tax, a disproportionate amount given my amount of time actually working.

 

[Boxlicker101]

As a student I am a burden on society as I receive student loans. Though even as a student i've paid a sizable amount of my earning as tax, a disproportionate amount given my amount of time actually working.

Everybody is a burden on society at one time or another. Children are not self-supporting although, hopefully, they are supported by their families. In time, you will pay back the loans and be a contributing member of society. At least that is the expectation of the people who issued the loans.

 

[ishtat]

UK Unemployment
Labour Market Statistics


The Brits still live and die by Keynes. That's why they get by. In time of recession government takes on debt, in time of growth government sheds debt.

That sentence alone La Rocha indicates you haven't a clue. UK government spending and debt has increased massively since 1996. Their government has annually redefined their statistical base so that none of their published numbers are credible.

I 'm not going to argue though because in less than 3 months there will be an emergency budget after the election and I'll be proved right.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

MzDEVIANCY

For all I know about SADANGEL she could be blowing smoke up our butts about the circumstances of her afflictions. But I tend to discredit anyone who hides behind an alt; if they arent forthright about their name you cant trust their basic honesty, period.

 

[oggbashan]

That sentence alone La Rocha indicates you haven't a clue. UK government spending and debt has increased massively since 1996. Their government has annually redefined their statistical base so that none of their published numbers are credible.

I 'm not going to argue though because in less than 3 months there will be an emergency budget after the election and I'll be proved right.

At least all three political parties admit that we have a problem. Which, if any of them, has a reasonable solution doesn't matter because we don't and won't know the true scale of the problem until after the election.

If there has been a change of government, the previous administration will be blamed. If there is the same party in power, it will be the criminal, careless, unprincipled bankers (especially US ones) who will be blamed. What will not happen is an admission that successive administrations knew what was happening and turned a blind eye to it.

Og

 

[LaRocha]

That sentence alone La Rocha indicates you haven't a clue. UK government spending and debt has increased massively since 1996. Their government has annually redefined their statistical base so that none of their published numbers are credible.

I 'm not going to argue though because in less than 3 months there will be an emergency budget after the election and I'll be proved right.

Can you read a simple chart? http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_chart.html

The UK hasn't had these debt levels since the early 70s. The UK debt HAS NOT increased massively since 1996. It has increased SIGNIFICANTLY since the early 90s, but has been entirely under control since Thatcher took office. The trend in UK debt is cyclical since the 70s, following recession and growth patterns, Keynes' dream. Why are debt levels reminiscent of early 70s levels? Because the 2007-10 Recession was the worst since the Oil Crisis. Comparing UK debt percentage to Greece is anecdotal and absolutely irrelevant. You have to compare it to the US, which I did. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/USDebt.png


The UK isn't China, there are private companies that track government spending, unemployment etc. same as in US. Why not compare UK to Russia? Russia has a public debt percentage under 10. I'm sure you'll say Libya is in a better economic situation than Britain because its public debt is under 5%.

Actually, for you to be proved right it's not just a change in the budget but:

"it doesn't matter who wins the election, in 2011 UK public policy will be an IMF diktat."

 

[Handley_Page]

"Burden" sounds so polite. I consider myself something more of a blight.

Beautifully put.

I my case, I've paid my dues and now retired. The government's had my money (and then some) and now it's time to have a few thing back (in kind), like prescriptions and free local transport, etc..

In the case of the UK, I think we deal with the illegal immigrants far too easily; catch 'em and ship them on the next boat home.

 

[matriarch]

Over a lifetime, so far, I guess I'm a freeloader. Growing up and attending government subsidized day care, free public school, city sponsored kid league soccer team, free youth dental care, and public health care for 20 years.

I've started repaying that in the last decade, but I'm not sure if I'm quite done yet.

Same here......free education up until the age of 18, including secretarial college. Free dental treatment up until 16. Free medical treatment, including prescriptions, up until the age of 18. After that, medical treatment still free, but pay for prescriptions, minimal costs for many years, until Maggie Thatcher came along and bumped up the cost per item, which for people who needed their meds to survive, put their lifein jeopardy.....currently it's at £7.20 per item. Now, at the age of 60, I'm back to completely free healthcare, including free prescriptions.

I have paid weekly contributions for the whole of my working life, to cover my healthcare and social security payments if I were out of work. Now that I'm 60 and a pensioner, I no longer pay any contributions.

I don't intend to ever become a burden on the state, how many of us do, but should it happen, I feel that I've paid my way through taxes and national insurance contributions from the age of 18.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

To hear the parasites tell it every one of them earned the Victoria Cross before they got the dole.

 

[Handley_Page]

It was a joke - whether it was poor or not would be a matter of opinion.

As you may have noticed, HP, Amicus is very fond of asking liberals why they hate freedom. Since it was his hypocrisy that inspired me to start this thread, I thought it would be fitting to include some of his laughable pomposity in the dialogue.

Thank you for the explanation.
Of course, there is a slight translation problem here; "Liberals" in the UK tends to mean that political party.

 

[oggbashan]

Thank you for the explanation.
Of course, there is a slight translation problem here; "Liberals" in the UK tends to mean that political party.

Amicus thinks that all Europeans are liberal and socialist and are teetering on the edge of Marxist Communism.

To him, "liberal", "socialist" and shudder "communist" are all labels for the Devil on Earth who is trying to damage the heaven that existed in the US until President Obama was elected.

Og

 

[bronzeage]

no, it's easily recognisable as Redneck.

I know a lot of rednecks and only a few are burdens on society.

I will concede that some of them are less of a burden when they go on the dole, than when they show up for work every day.

 

[PublicAffection]

"Being a burden is GREAT! It's like my 7th favorite thing to be!"

Quote on a shirt that I wear on a pretty regular basis.

 

[MzDeviancy]

MzDEVIANCY

For all I know about SADANGEL she could be blowing smoke up our butts about the circumstances of her afflictions. But I tend to discredit anyone who hides behind an alt; if they arent forthright about their name you cant trust their basic honesty, period.

Okay, I thought it was pretty clear that the point was that some people are genuinely unable to work, and I was asking whether you can bear to pay higher taxes so that those people can live. Care to answer that question, or would you just like to toss out more random, insensitive accusations that make you look like even more of a jackass?

Actually, nevermind. I'm pretty sure I know what your answer is.

 

[SeaCat]

Hmmmmmmmm, I is a RedNeck, (as many here would admit.)

As for my being a Burden that would depend on what you consider to be a burden on society. (Yes I have said this before.)

Now what I think should have been done with the Health Care Reform is this:

Instead of forcing everyone to buy insurance and then fining those who didn't buy it,

Create a system where people can get affordable inurance and then allow them the choice of buying it or not. (If they can't afford it then subsidize it,). If people don't want to buy into the system then allow them not to, with the caveat that they can't get treatment they can't afford.

What this would do is allow those who need insurance to get the insurance they want.

This would also allow those who chose to opt out to opt out.

The down side for those who chose to opt out is that when they get sick or injured they have to pay out of pocket. When they can no longer pay for their care then they no longer receive care. They can't then go begging the government for care, they opted out.

Cat

 

[Boxlicker101]

Hmmmmmmmm, I is a RedNeck, (as many here would admit.)

As for my being a Burden that would depend on what you consider to be a burden on society. (Yes I have said this before.)

Now what I think should have been done with the Health Care Reform is this:

Instead of forcing everyone to buy insurance and then fining those who didn't buy it,

Create a system where people can get affordable inurance and then allow them the choice of buying it or not. (If they can't afford it then subsidize it,). If people don't want to buy into the system then allow them not to, with the caveat that they can't get treatment they can't afford.

What this would do is allow those who need insurance to get the insurance they want.

This would also allow those who chose to opt out to opt out.

The down side for those who chose to opt out is that when they get sick or injured they have to pay out of pocket. When they can no longer pay for their care then they no longer receive care. They can't then go begging the government for care, they opted out.

Cat

The problem with that idea is that those uninsured persons would, if faced with a big medical bill looming in the future, buy medical insurance. The insurance companies could not refuse to provide it for pre-existing conditions.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Amicus thinks that all Europeans are liberal and socialist and are teetering on the edge of Marxist Communism.

To him, "liberal", "socialist" and shudder "communist" are all labels for the Devil on Earth who is trying to damage the heaven that existed in the US until President Obama was elected.

Og

Wrong! I'm the one who thinks it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Okay, I thought it was pretty clear that the point was that some people are genuinely unable to work, and I was asking whether you can bear to pay higher taxes so that those people can live. Care to answer that question, or would you just like to toss out more random, insensitive accusations that make you look like even more of a jackass?

Actually, nevermind. I'm pretty sure I know what your answer is.

Dear Asshat,

Try being clear and direct with your questions and youll get clear and direct responses. You asked about SADANGEL, and I addressed her. But I think you prefer to create opportunities to unload because this is how gutless wonders do things.

So lets do it this way: If youre in a coma or paralyzed welfare is appropriate. Otherwise you need to be assessed to determine what work you can do. I mean, if you are able to play on LIT youre likely able to get naked on your webcam and charge for it.

 

[ishtat]

Can you read a simple chart? http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_chart.html

The UK hasn't had these debt levels since the early 70s. The UK debt HAS NOT increased massively since 1996. It has increased SIGNIFICANTLY since the early 90s, but has been entirely under control since Thatcher took office. The trend in UK debt is cyclical since the 70s, following recession and growth patterns, Keynes' dream. Why are debt levels reminiscent of early 70s levels? Because the 2007-10 Recession was the worst since the Oil Crisis. Comparing UK debt percentage to Greece is anecdotal and absolutely irrelevant. You have to compare it to the US, which I did. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/USDebt.png


The UK isn't China, there are private companies that track government spending, unemployment etc. same as in US. Why not compare UK to Russia? Russia has a public debt percentage under 10. I'm sure you'll say Libya is in a better economic situation than Britain because its public debt is under 5%.

Actually, for you to be proved right it's not just a change in the budget but:

"it doesn't matter who wins the election, in 2011 UK public policy will be an IMF diktat."

You might then care to consider the bases on which the stats are collected. The current UK government has changed them so radically that comparasions are meaninglessand the debt levels as stated are still 300% plus in excess of Maastrict guidelines.

You may also care to consider for example where both the capital and debt financing costs associated with RBS and Lloyds nationalisation are? They sure aren't in the figures you quoted. That is just one of dozens of massive fiddles in presenting the public accounts.

Ostensibly the figures do not look so bad as they would if the comparative bases had remained the same. Moving debt off a balance sheet doesn't make it disappear.

 

[rgraham666]

Jimmy Bob? Having spent two weeks with sadangel recently I can attest that everything she says about the condition of her health is true.

Not that you care about the truth at all.

 

[MzDeviancy]

Dear Asshat,

Try being clear and direct with your questions and youll get clear and direct responses. You asked about SADANGEL, and I addressed her. But I think you prefer to create opportunities to unload because this is how gutless wonders do things.

So lets do it this way: If youre in a coma or paralyzed welfare is appropriate. Otherwise you need to be assessed to determine what work you can do. I mean, if you are able to play on LIT youre likely able to get naked on your webcam and charge for it.

Dear annoying and embittered old man:

This is what I said:

I'm curious to know what you think of a case like sadangel's, which I think is a textbook illustration of why we need government assistance and universal healthcare. Should people who are the victims of nonpreventable illnesses be left to die in a ditch somewhere so you don't have to pay higher taxes?

Most people with half a brain in their heads could figure out that I wasn't asking for your personal opinion of sadangel. Most people would read the second sentence and understand that that was the point. Boxlicker somehow managed to crack my mysterious code.

Thank you for removing any fraction of a doubt that existed as to your lack of intelligence. You're a schmuck.

 

[Huckleman2000]

[...]You're a schmuck.

I think he's more of a putz. A pudgy puny pink putz.

 

[erosoteric]

I know I have been a burden to society in the past. I was once an alcoholic welfare mom! Not anymore...