Are we too PC ?

[DVS]

It's the white man's burden, I'm afraid. And it's come about because white folk abused those priveleges for so many generations.

Sure, not you personally. But that black guy's grandfather never asked to be Jim Crowed. His father never wanted to be a sharecropper. And his father got dragged aboard a slave ship to come here willy-nilly. None of those people had much choice about what rights they were given. And so now-- reparations. It sucks. It doesn't work especially well. Now is now, right?


My mother's family were serfs in Russia, so I too am the product of a slave system. I probably have slave ancestors closer than three generations back--but in America, no one looks at the color of my skin and makes all those inferences about my family history. No one I pass on the street assumes I'm shiftless, stupid, undeserving. They might if they knew me better!

I agree completely about the Jim Crow laws and anybody else that was subjected to such things, because of their skin color, etc. But, legal rights should be equal for all people, any race, color, gender, religion, sexual preference, and on down the pike. But I won't pay someone reparations for something I had nothing to do with.

Just because something was so for a period of time doesn't mean it should go the other way to make someone feel justified. That is vindictive. What my ancestors did should have no weight on how I'm treated. It was a different time and place and to judge someone in present day for what happened a long time ago is ridiculous. Was it OK to have slaves? No, but because I wasn't there, it wasn't my fault by default.

Even today, it's not right to judge someone intentionally. But people need to be aware of intent and desire when they hear someone say something they find offensive. Was the intent to be offensive? If not, let it go. But, if the person intended to offend, that's a totally different thing and it shouldn't be tolerated.

 

[Braschi]

It's the white man's burden, I'm afraid. And it's come about because white folk abused those priveleges for so many generations.

Sure, not you personally. But that black guy's grandfather never asked to be Jim Crowed. His father never wanted to be a sharecropper. And his father got dragged aboard a slave ship to come here willy-nilly. None of those people had much choice about what rights they were given. And so now-- reparations. It sucks. It doesn't work especially well. Now is now, right?

Two wrongs don't make a right, and an eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind. The fact of the matter is that we have to learn from our ancestor's mistakes, collectively as a species. Maybe none of my ancestors made the mistake of having slaves, but someone else's did and that's something I should learn from them. Abusing privileges -no matter how much I justify it as "comeuppance" or "reparations"- is wrong. No one should have special privileges because of their skin colour or the kind of stuff -or lack thereof- between their legs.

Besides, every race, ethnicity or nation has done some form of other of atrocity; it's not like any one of them can get up on a high-horse and throw the first stone. Instead of searching for who did what to whom in the past, we should all be working together to make a better future.

No. No it really doesn't. It means someone else is going to get laid. That's winning in the real world, not just academia. The blue eyed dude who turned into a little blubbery bitch every time he got shot down legitimately did not get laid.

Sucks to be him. Interesting that people seem to be singling out "blue eyed" and "white" people a lot around here....

 

[DVS]

Two wrongs don't make a right, and an eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind. The fact of the matter is that we have to learn from our ancestor's mistakes, collectively as a species. Maybe none of my ancestors made the mistake of having slaves, but someone else's did and that's something I should learn from them. Abusing privileges -no matter how much I justify it as "comeuppance" or "reparations"- is wrong. No one should have special privileges because of their skin colour or the kind of stuff -or lack thereof- between their legs.

Besides, every race, ethnicity or nation has done some form of other of atrocity; it's not like any one of them can get up on a high-horse and throw the first stone. Instead of searching for who did what to whom in the past, we should all be working together to make a better future.


Sucks to be him. Interesting that people seem to be singling out "blue eyed" and "white" people a lot around here....

It makes sense. We blue eyed white people are the most pretty people here. That makes us superior. Deal with it.

 

[teknight]

It makes sense. We blue eyed white people are the most pretty people here. That makes us superior. Deal with it.

We are. But it helps to have a full head of not white hair.

 

[DVS]

We are. But it helps to have a full head of not white hair.

OK, is that a sidestepped bald joke? You, my friend are baldist. It's not my fault I'm bald. The hair on the sides and back is still blond, though. I will admit that the hair I pluck from inside my ears is white.

 

[teknight]

OK, is that a sidestepped bald joke? You, my friend are baldist. It's not my fault I'm bald. The hair on the sides and back is still blond, though. I will admit that the hair I pluck from inside my ears is white.

Baldism ain't covered by the EEOC.
It's totally your choice, or something.

Wow, I feel stupider for having made that 2nd statement.

 

[DVS]

Baldism ain't covered by the EEOC.
It's totally your choice, or something.

Wow, I feel stupider for having made that 2nd statement.

So you had to go there? You brought out the EEOC card? Really?

And by the way, it's a proven fact that bald men are smarter than men with hair. There's not enough room in the skull for hair follicles and gray matter. The gray matter wins. Ask any bald man...he'll tell you.

 

[teknight]

So you had to go there? You brought out the EEOC card? Really?

And by the way, it's a proven fact that bald men are smarter than men with hair. There's not enough room in the skull for hair follicles and gray matter. The gray matter wins. Ask any bald man...he'll tell you.

Can't argue with ...science.

 

[DVS]

Can't argue with ...science.

It's about time someone submitted to my superior intellect. And women with bald heads? That has nothing to do with gray matter or hair follicles, but I won't go there. It wouldn't be very PC.

 

[Netzach]

Besides, every race, ethnicity or nation has done some form of other of atrocity; it's not like any one of them can get up on a high-horse and throw the first stone. Instead of searching for who did what to whom in the past, we should all be working together to make a better future.

That's kind of hard to do when the people at the top of the heap are always skipping away from their little piles of turds going "it's not mine!"

I can be pretty damn sure that none of my ancestry cleared out Native people - that doesn't make me get defensive around the whole issue. It's kind of my fart even if I didn't lay it directly. I don't have the worst health care and education in the entire country going for me or any theoretical kids of mine - I'd rather say that's pretty fucked than go "well I didn't do it."

 

[Netzach]

Sucks to be him. Interesting that people seem to be singling out "blue eyed" and "white" people a lot around here....

Everyone else seemed to have the social skills to say "I'm sorry" and maybe walk away thinking about how it might actually feel to be in the other person's shoes. I'm just calling it how I saw it, free speech and all that. Why are you so sensitive?

Now try listening to some iteration of this like, every fucking day and continue to let everyone on earth but you air their opinion.

 

[teknight]

Everyone else seemed to have the social skills to say "I'm sorry" and maybe walk away thinking about how it might actually feel to be in the other person's shoes. I'm just calling it how I saw it, free speech and all that. Why are you so sensitive?

Alas, it takes Stella's posts (and Kybele's) for me to put myself in someone else's shoes.
I'm not that magnanimous, I guess.

 

[Netzach]

Alas, it takes Stella's posts (and Kybele's) for me to put myself in someone else's shoes.
I'm not that magnanimous, I guess.

Most people aren't. The real test is: knowing what you know do you continue to be a douche? Do you try, armed with knowhow, not to be one? Do you seek out other ways in which you're being one and rethink them?

In your case, you abandoned douchery, though it's everyone's right to be one, in favor of being a human being with an intent to be civil. You're not existing purely in a theoretical vacuum in which it's quite correct that there should be no criminality on ANY idea no matter how vile, you're existing in a world where you actually purport to deal with people unlike you successfully.

Basically, I was raised by insular, racist paranoids. I could happily be one if I wanted to go that way, but I figured I like the world better. I'll always be a white chick with no idea about a lot of stuff, but I'm actively working on it at least. I've said my share of stupid shit, but when someone around me objected I could manage the courtesy of wondering if they might not be right.

 

[Braschi]

OK, is that a sidestepped bald joke? You, my friend are baldist. It's not my fault I'm bald. The hair on the sides and back is still blond, though. I will admit that the hair I pluck from inside my ears is white.

Ah, but bald men have a significantly higher risk of coronary disease and stroke So, better keep an eye on your blood pressure

That's kind of hard to do when the people at the top of the heap are always skipping away from their little piles of turds going "it's not mine!"

I can be pretty damn sure that none of my ancestry cleared out Native people - that doesn't make me get defensive around the whole issue. It's kind of my fart even if I didn't lay it directly. I don't have the worst health care and education in the entire country going for me or any theoretical kids of mine - I'd rather say that's pretty fucked than go "well I didn't do it."

Yeah, well, we keep letting them.

See, that's the thing with racial reparations. It doesn't matter if you, or your ancestors had anything to do with the atrocities. It's your race, which is at fault. You owe me because people of your skin colour had slaves.

Now, pay up!

 

[teknight]

Most people aren't. The real test is: knowing what you know do you continue to be a douche? Do you try, armed with knowhow, not to be one? Do you seek out other ways in which you're being one and rethink them?

In your case, you abandoned douchery, though it's everyone's right to be one, in favor of being a human being with an intent to be civil. You're not existing purely in a theoretical vacuum in which it's quite correct that there should be no criminality on ANY idea no matter how vile, you're existing in a world where you actually purport to deal with people unlike you successfully.

Basically, I was raised by insular, racist paranoids. I could happily be one if I wanted to go that way, but I figured I like the world better. I'll always be a white chick with no idea about a lot of stuff, but I'm actively working on it at least. I've said my share of stupid shit, but when someone around me objected I could manage the courtesy of wondering if they might not be right.

I don't try to accommodate others. It really is not in my nature. I'm blunt, and that does not win me the Miss Congeniality prize, but, it's a burden I can live with.
Having said that, I could say I never try to be a "douche," but, that's a lie. If nothing else, like with most things, there are two parties to communication- the transmitter (me) and the receiver (you or some 3rd party). My actions can be douchey and perceived as righteous, righteous and perceived as douchey, or just so much noise.

I could say something profoundly dumb like: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" or some other such deep (yet hollow) sounding utterance, but...what was the OP's point?
'cause this really is not about me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I agree completely about the Jim Crow laws and anybody else that was subjected to such things, because of their skin color, etc. But, legal rights should be equal for all people, any race, color, gender, religion, sexual preference, and on down the pike. But I won't pay someone reparations for something I had nothing to do with.

Just because something was so for a period of time doesn't mean it should go the other way to make someone feel justified. That is vindictive. What my ancestors did should have no weight on how I'm treated. It was a different time and place and to judge someone in present day for what happened a long time ago is ridiculous. Was it OK to have slaves? No, but because I wasn't there, it wasn't my fault by default.

The sins of the fathers and all that. What happened to black folk's ancestors has all kinds of wieght on how they've been treated right up until they got up on their pins and demanded it stop. Now, reparations. It is not about punishing you-- although suddenly having to share what used to be yours by privilege certainly feels like punishment. It feel s like things are being taken away and given to someone else.

Sure, the balance is wobbly right now. This is a very new way of things still, and humans beings are awfully human regardless of their color. Forty years ago, you could have gotten that black guy fired by "crying wolf. "

Even today, it's not right to judge someone intentionally. But people need to be aware of intent and desire when they hear someone say something they find offensive. Was the intent to be offensive? If not, let it go. But, if the person intended to offend, that's a totally different thing and it shouldn't be tolerated.

Um. no. It is not the hearer's job to mindread intent. I hear someone say "Faggot" and I go on high alert, because nine times out of ten, when a stranger says "faggot" someone is about to be assaulted-- better to be safe at the risk of hurting someone's widdle feewings.

Same with white people saying "nigger." Not too many black folk feel safe when they hear that. To wait, and make nice, could mean taking a beating.

It's your race, which is at fault. You owe me because people of your skin colour had slaves.

White society owes you because we built our prosperity on your backs, and denied you any share of it.

 

[DVS]

Ah, but bald men have a significantly higher risk of coronary disease and stroke So, better keep an eye on your blood pressure


Yeah, well, we keep letting them.

See, that's the thing with racial reparations. It doesn't matter if you, or your ancestors had anything to do with the atrocities. It's your race, which is at fault. You owe me because people of your skin colour had slaves.

Now, pay up!

Come and get it, if you feel it's owed to you. But, in full disclosure...beware of the dog. He's not a racist. He'll bite anybody.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Come and get it, if you feel it's owed to you. But, in full disclosure...beware of the dog. He's not a racist. He'll bite anybody.

yeah.. you got shafted because of things other people's fathers did.

Happens a lot in this world.

 

[ImOnIt]

Who do you propose gives money to ex slave descendants? How do you know who is a slave descendant? Whos sweat is the reparation taken from? How do we know who benefited from slave labour and should therefor pay slave descendants? What if Richard's cotton owning great-grandad sold his cotton for opium? That's no use to him, now I guess he has to pay a tithe.

Oh, wait, it's a shitstorm. If you want something, work for it. If someone doesn't do anything, and let me repeat that- a human who doesn't DO anything... chances are, they get a room and food and tv and maybe operate a shitty car. All that food and gas and metal is grown and mined and drilled by people who contribute. You know, out of obligation.

I don't owe my labour to India (but Britain conquered them, too), and I don't owe it to any of the ex-territories. You disrespect non slave, never been enslaved human beings by assuming they can't take care of themselves.

 

[DVS]

...Same with white people saying "nigger." Not too many black folk feel safe when they hear that. To wait, and make nice, could mean taking a beating.

White society owes you because we built our prosperity on your backs, and denied you any share of it.

In many places, a white guy says that, he's gonna get shot dead on the street.

 

[DVS]

yeah.. you got shafted because of things other people's fathers did.

Happens a lot in this world.

No, I got shafted because one stupid self centered black guy told another stupid self centered black guy that because he's a minority black man and I'm white, he could go to the EEOC, lie that I abused his civil rights as a minority and get me fired. That stupid self centered conversation has nothing to do with other black people who are fine, upstanding people and look on what the guy did as wrong.

The guy's father had nothing to do with how he acted. He just listened to one guy, did as he suggested and it went in his favor. Trouble is, now another guy knows this works, and he has it to use the next time he wants to be a slob and not do his job.

Sure, the balance is wobbly right now. This is a very new way of things still, and humans beings are awfully human regardless of their color. Forty years ago, you could have gotten that black guy fired by "crying wolf. "

The balance is far from wobbly. I wasn't even allowed to talk. How can I prove a negative? I can't. All I can say is I didn't say it. Every fucking inmate in every prison says that. That's an old liar's story, so naturally I was lying. That isn't a wobbly balance. It's gone to the other side and stuck there, like glue. There's nothing new about this. It's just switched sides.

Yes, I understand there are people who hate blacks and people who hate whites. There needs to be a race police that sits both parties down to find out what's going on and fix it, if possible. BOTH sides need to be allowed to speak. BOTH sides should be allowed to say what did or didn't happen. At least that might stop these people from saying things happened when they didn't. What happened was a railroading of my civil rights as a human being, without cause.

I know you are going to come back and say that is exactly what happened to the black man, back in the 1800s and I agree. Anything I say can be flipped and said it happened to the black man, in the 1800s and even present day in some racist white's minds. Two wrongs don't make it right. Just as with the black man, a thought that maybe the accuser could be lying wasn't possible. I was a racist, no question about it.

We haven't we learned a thing from history. Those were different times and different laws were in place. Jump forward 200 years and all that's changed is now it's the white man's turn to be the victim? Cool, that white SOB needs to learn how it feels to be a victim.

I understand what you mean about the times 40 years ago, but if you think I would cry wolf about someone for no real reason just to get him fired, you don't know me very well. Even after being treated unfairly by someone with a vendetta, I know it was nothing more than an idiot using the present racial equality laws to his advantage. There are still fair minded people out there of his race that wouldn't stoop to that level and think what he did was only making the racial divide that much wider.

I'm sure that unless someone goes through this ordeal, they have no idea how one sided it is. In some cases, if the white person isn't a racist before, the process could change him into one. How is that helping with the problem?

And the sad reality is I know you won't change your views and you know I won't change mine. Like political views and views on abortion, there are things that people feel so strongly about that they will never change, no matter what someone else says. They just see things differently.

Maybe when I'm dead and gone, this will finally be figured out. All I want is a fair chance at life without someone taking that away from me because of my color and so called superior status. And don't say that's exactly what the black man wants because that analogy gets old. We need to get past that. We need to grow up. We need to learn from our mistakes, not repeat them.

Thanks for the lively discussion. I've said what I wanted to say. Now I'm just re-saying what I've already said in my "I'm a Racist" thread. Go there and read my posts, if you want. I'm talked out.

What do you say we go back to talking about kinky sex? OK, you can have one more post, too. I don't want to be the superior poster and not give you equal time. But THEN, let's go back to kinky sex.

 

[Stella_Omega]

No, I got shafted because one stupid self centered black guy told another stupid self centered black guy that because he's a minority black man and I'm white, he could go to the EEOC, lie that I abused his civil rights as a minority and get me fired. That stupid self centered conversation has nothing to do with other black people who are fine, upstanding people and look on what the guy did as wrong.

His lie was believed because there is a huge history of white people doing shit in the very recent past.

That's what I mean by wobbly. Eventually, there will be less need for race politics. The sooner the better. Any time there is imbalance, someone will find a way to benefit from it, like those pig stockbrokers who make better money when the market is failing than they do when the stocks are honest values.

In many places, a white guy says that, he's gonna get shot dead on the street.

Yeah. In many places, one way or the other, someone is going to get hurt.

What do you say we go back to talking about kinky sex? OK, you can have one more post, too. I don't want to be the superior poster and not give you equal time. But THEN, let's go back to kinky sex.

What kind of kinky sex is politically correct?

 

[DVS]

His lie was believed because there is a huge history of white people doing shit in the very recent past.

That's what I mean by wobbly. Eventually, there will be less need for race politics. The sooner the better. Any time there is imbalance, someone will find a way to benefit from it, like those pig stockbrokers who make better money when the market is failing than they do when the stocks are honest values.

Yeah. In many places, one way or the other, someone is going to get hurt.
What kind of kinky sex is politically correct?

There is no kinky sex that is totally politically correct. That's the power exchange thing I enjoy so much.

Sure, you have to be SS&C so nobody really gets hurt, but that's as PC as it gets. Actually, from my experience, everybody involved prefers it that way.

 

[Felix_Jones]

Yeah. In many places, one way or the other, someone is going to get hurt.What kind of kinky sex is politically correct?

Isn't the odd nature of kinky sex a big part of its appeal? I think if you had a girl dress up like Sarah Palin and then give her a good buggering that might fall in the PC realm, yes?

 

[Braschi]

White society owes you because we built our prosperity on your backs, and denied you any share of it.

Nope. Countries that had no slavery, and where slavery was illegal have become just as prosperous -in fact more- than countries where there was slavery. I mean, look at the United States as a simple example... which is more prosperous, the north or the south? Correlation or causation, but states that abolished slavery first ended up being more prosperous, so maybe -just maybe- a backward, primitive institution like slavery in fact harmed society as a whole more than whatever "benefit" slaveholders got from it. Sure, a lot of slaveholders were rich, but was that because they had slaves, or because they were rich they could afford to buy slaves? And not just within the US; if you look at the top ten countries in the Human Development Index, only one -the US- practiced slavery as a legal institution, and even that not in it's entirety. Besides, most economic development occurred after slavery was abolished, particularly in the US when the Industrial Revolution didn't start until well into the 1870s. And again, it lagged in the southern states where racism was still persistent.

So, exactly how much "white prosperity" was due to slavery? Has anyone quantified that, or is it just something that we assume to be true?

Come and get it, if you feel it's owed to you. But, in full disclosure...beware of the dog. He's not a racist. He'll bite anybody.

I'm not going to go get it, but if people are handing it out.. why not?

Yeah. In many places, one way or the other, someone is going to get hurt.

Yeah, and having a complacent attitude about that probably won't stop it, either.