Apostrophe Apoplexy

[elfin_odalisque]

It's bit of a shock on a Sunday morning. I arrogantly thought apostrophes were child’s play but try this; should it be “Ladies Room – Mens Room” or “Ladies’ Room – Men’s Room”?

In my hubris I’ve long sneered at “Writer’s Resources” and “Author’s Hangout”, thinking the apostrophe should be after the plural but now, a chastened girl, I offer my mea culpa.

While reading a story here I came across the phrase, ‘he was a ladies’ man’, and paused. Surely this wasn’t possessive and it sure wasn’t an abbreviation, so why the apostrophe? Having no idea, I googled.

In all the conflicting opinion I found a little candle in the darkness, The US Govt Printing Office Style Manual – you can’t knock the expertise. The intro is;

US Govt Style Manual

and the punctuation section is here,

Punctuation

I’ll buy the rules, so it is “Ladies Room – Men’s Room”, “Writers Resources” and “Authors Hangout” – oh, and “Ladies man”.

Who's right and who's wrong? Give me some help here

 

[michchick98]

It's bit of a shock on a Sunday morning. I arrogantly thought apostrophes were child’s play but try this; should it be “Ladies Room – Mens Room” or “Ladies’ Room – Men’s Room”?

In my hubris I’ve long sneered at “Writer’s Resources” and “Author’s Hangout”, thinking the apostrophe should be after the plural but now, a chastened girl, I offer my mea culpa.

While reading a story here I came across the phrase, ‘he was a ladies’ man’, and paused. Surely this wasn’t possessive and it sure wasn’t an abbreviation, so why the apostrophe? Having no idea, I googled.

In all the conflicting opinion I found a little candle in the darkness, The US Govt Printing Office Style Manual – you can’t knock the expertise. The intro is;

US Govt Style Manual

and the punctuation section is here,

Punctuation

I’ll buy the rules, so it is “Ladies Room – Men’s Room”, “Writers Resources” and “Authors Hangout” – oh, and “Ladies man”.

Who's right and who's wrong? Give me some help here

I think it should be:

Men's Room/Ladies' Room
Writer's Resources (in this case, even though the resources are for all writers, it can easily 'belong' to one writer, therefore the apostrophe would go before the s - although I'm sure it could go the other way as well)
Authors' Hangout (since it's the hangout for ALL of Lit's authors, the apostrophe would come after the s)
Ladies' Night (since Ladies is plural of Lady, Ladies' is plural possessive)

Here's a good resource I refer to all the time when writing AND editing:

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/

and in particular the entry for apostrophe usage:

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/apostrophes1.html

 

[elfin_odalisque]

mich

Thanks for the reply. Go check the govt style guide. "If possession is not the most important feature and the plural ends with an 's' - don't use an apostrophe. That's why it should be 'Ladies Room' and 'Men's Room'.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I think it should be:

Men's Room/Ladies' Room
Writer's Resources (in this case, even though the resources are for all writers, it can easily 'belong' to one writer, therefore the apostrophe would go before the s - although I'm sure it could go the other way as well)
Authors' Hangout (since it's the hangout for ALL of Lit's authors, the apostrophe would come after the s)
Ladies' Night (since Ladies is plural of Lady, Ladies' is plural possessive)

Here's a good resource I refer to all the time when writing AND editing:

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/

and in particular the entry for apostrophe usage:

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/apostrophes1.html

I buy the 'Ladies' Night' 'cos that is possessive - but seriously, read the US style guide to see why it should be 'Ladies Room', 'Writers Resources'.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

There's a major book out now by Lou Dobbs, the television news guy, called "Independents Day", the trope being that he bills himself as a political independent. The question is: should there be an apostrophe there or not? Is the book about a day for political independents or one political independent? Or are all political independents gathering together on this day?

Apparently he means the latter.

 

[Saucy_Sage]

Seriously?

A government guide to writing style? Isn't that sort of like an NFL Guide to Etiquette?

All kidding aside, I was glad to see "Authors' Hangout" changed, although "Authors Hangout" would have been acceptable too, I think. With the earlier title, I was always concerned about whose hangout I might be using. Where's that airline plt when you need him?

 

[sr71plt]

Government style as in the GPO Manual? That's not used for fiction.

"Mens Room" and "Ladies Room" have almost forced themselves into acceptability (neck and neck with "impact" for anything but cars hitting walls), but I don't know of any authority that has had the guts to mention them yet, though.

When in doubt, you can always just go to Webster's, which lists:

men's room
Ladies' room
ladies' man (with lady's man as secondarily acceptable)

 

[glynndah]

And expect more changes, too. I work with sixth graders. It used to be Chris's house and the five Smiths' house. Now the book says Chris' house is fine, too. There seems to be a scarcity of "S's". Perhaps we should stock up.

Oh, and do I need that apostrophe in "S's"? That rule seems to be changing, too.

 

[sr71plt]

And expect more changes, too. I work with sixth graders. It used to be Chris's house and the five Smiths' house. Now the book says Chris' house is fine, too. There seems to be a scarcity of "S's". Perhaps we should stock up.

Oh, and do I need that apostrophe in "S's"? That rule seems to be changing, too.

Hang onto your hat. The rules--even if you follow the guidance in the Chicago Manual of Style (which a good many publishers don't)--are complex.

The general rule for possessives for proper nouns ending in an s, x, or z is "s's" (Burns's poems, Marx's therories, Berlioz'a works) 7.18

Nouns plural in form, but sigular in meaning use only "'s" (politics' meaning, United States' role) 7.19

Proper nouns of two or more syllables ending in a cez sound use only "'s" (Euripides' tragedies, Xerxes' armies) 7.20

Words ending in a nonpronounced s use only "'s" (Decartes' dreams, Camus' novels) 7.21


Not sure what you're asking in S's. If you are trying to render the possessive of the letter S, than S's would be right. For the plural it would be Ss (7.15) but you'd use an apostrophe for the plural of the lower case: s's (7.16)

 

[glynndah]

Not sure what you're asking in S's. If you are trying to render the possessive of the letter S, than S's would be right. For the plural it would be Ss (7.15) but you'd use an apostrophe for the plural of the lower case: s's (7.16)

Nope. Just trying to make 'em plural. I never used to add that apostrophe, but now I'm not so sure. I've seen it both ways. How about numbers? Six 9's or six 9s? Same rule?

 

[sr71plt]

Nope. Just trying to make 'em plural. I never used to add that apostrophe, but now I'm not so sure. I've seen it both ways. How about numbers? Six 9's or six 9s? Same rule?

six 9s (7.15)

 

[glynndah]

six 9s (7.15)

Thank you. That way looks right to me.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Personally and professionally, I can't stand Chicago. On those occasions when such questions trouble me (and they are rare) I go with APA. Much simpler and more straightforward.

 

[sr71plt]

Personally and professionally, I can't stand Chicago. On those occasions when such questions trouble me (and they are rare) I go with APA. Much simpler and more straightforward.

*Sigh* Why is it so hard to understand that this is a publishing industry "thing"? Chicago Manual of Style is for fiction and nonfiction in the humanities. APA is for scientific publishing. Some publishers, however, take APA number style (arabic numbers for 10 and above) rather than CMA style even for fiction and nonfiction in the humanities.

But, again, why do authors think the industry consults or defers to them on its style standards?

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Tee-hee, it's a great relief to see that everyone's as confused as me.

Government style as in the GPO Manual? That's not used for fiction.

"Mens Room" and "Ladies Room" have almost forced themselves into acceptability (neck and neck with "impact" for anything but cars hitting walls), but I don't know of any authority that has had the guts to mention them yet, though.

When in doubt, you can always just go to Webster's, which lists:

men's room
Ladies' room
ladies' man (with lady's man as secondarily acceptable)

Well no, actually. These are not possessives surely? I can buy the apostrophe in the sense of 'omission' (the original Greek meaning) as being 'Men, their room'. Punctuation is a printers' tool - not a writing style and should be consistent over all types or publishing - the fact the apostrophe is hotly debated just proves the lack of concensus.

And expect more changes, too. I work with sixth graders. It used to be Chris's house and the five Smiths' house. Now the book says Chris' house is fine, too. There seems to be a scarcity of "S's". Perhaps we should stock up.

Oh, and do I need that apostrophe in "S's"? That rule seems to be changing, too.

Well not according to Fowler's Modern English Usage - it stays Chris's and even s's (sorry sr), but with numbers you can have 9s's or 9s. Singulars retain the apostrophe 's' unless they are Jesus' or Ancient World, Archimedes' theorem

*Sigh* Why is it so hard to understand that this is a publishing industry "thing"? Chicago Manual of Style is for fiction and nonfiction in the humanities. APA is for scientific publishing. Some publishers, however, take APA number style (arabic numbers for 10 and above) rather than CMA style even for fiction and nonfiction in the humanities.

But, again, why do authors think the industry consults or defers to them on its style standards?

Actually it is house styles. The New Yorker style guide insists on '1990's' whilst the London Times requires '1990s'.

To show that the the apostrophe is really a tractable piece of punctuation, why do we write '80's and, try this as a double possessive, "Barrack Obama, a friend of the Clintons', said. . . "

The apostrophe seems to jar, but if I said, "Barrack Obama, a friend of mine, said . . . ", the second possessive seems perfectly natural.

Just saying that the poor apostrophe doesn't know whether it's coming or going.

 

[sr71plt]

Tee-hee, it's a great relief to see that everyone's as confused as me.

Well no, actually. These are not possessives surely? I can buy the apostrophe in the sense of 'omission' (the original Greek meaning) as being 'Men, their room'. Punctuation is a printers' tool - not a writing style and should be consistent over all types or publishing - the fact the apostrophe is hotly debated just proves the lack of concensus.

Well no, what? You place yourself above Webster's? Why knock yourself out to follow your own path on this? Publishers won't. They'll simply look it up in Webster's and apply it. But, then--if you are that ego centric . . .

Well not according to Fowler's Modern English Usage - it stays Chris's and even s's (sorry sr), but with numbers you can have 9s's or 9s. Singulars retain the apostrophe 's' unless they are Jesus' or Ancient World, Archimedes' theorem

Again it is just mindboggling that amateur writers seem so stubborn about flying in the face of industry standards. Once again, publishers turn to the Chicago Manual of Style second for guidance for fiction (and most nonfiction)--they turn to their house styles first, certainly, but these styles are constructed as adds to/exceptions to CMA style. They use Fowlers (but not the latest edition, which is no longer the same people of the original Fowlers and is not accepted well in publishing--the 2nd edition is the one of choice). But they only use Fowlers to illuminate or augment CMA or to provide support for a house style they want to set in opposition to CMA.

Again, it's fascinating to watch amateurs beat themselves to death to try to assert their own bugaboo style perceptions in the face of a professional publishing industry that already has it all (well, most of it--"it" tends to be a moving target) figured out--and enforces industry standards.

 

[midwestyankee]

<snip>

Again, it's fascinating to watch amateurs beat themselves to death to try to assert their own bugaboo style perceptions in the face of a professional publishing industry that already has it all (well, most of it--"it" tends to be a moving target) figured out--and enforces industry standards.

Indeed, it all depends on what the meaning of "it" is.

 

[sr71plt]

Indeed, it all depends on what the meaning of "it" is.

Which is why the authorities update regularly and why editors have style discussions.

These, however, are more focused on fine points than the sort of discussions I see on chat boards like this, where everyone is his/her own stubborn untrained/unwashed authority--based on whatever they can grab out of the clouds on any given Tuesday.

 

[evanslily]

I was always taught at school that you turn the thing around so that it includes the word 'of'.

So for example, Sams hat (leaving out the apostrophe while we decide where it should go) becomes hat of Sam

The apostrophe falls after the last letter of the turned around phrase.

So in the case of hat of Sam, the apostrophe falls after the letter m. So it should be Sam's hat.

It works. And I would argue that ladies' room and men's room are possessives.

Ladies room - room of the ladies. Therefore the apostrophe should fall after the last letter of the word ladies - ladies' room.

Mens room - room of the men. The apostrophe falls after the last letter of the word men - men's room.

But no, I can't quote any great reference source I'm afraid. Other than my stickler-for-the-rules English teacher, Miss Catlin...

 

[Saucy_Sage]

But no, I can't quote any great reference source I'm afraid. Other than my stickler-for-the-rules English teacher, Miss Catlin...

These, however, are more focused on fine points than the sort of discussions I see on chat boards like this, where everyone is his/her own stubborn untrained/unwashed authority--based on whatever they can grab out of the clouds on any given Tuesday.

Are you saying that Mrs. Catlin wasn't trained? Or, even worse, never washed? You, sir, are no gentleman!

My approach to apostrophes is sort of like Sally Brown's approach to commas:

Charlie Brown is reading his sister Sally's homework. "You probably should start a new paragraph here, and then maybe capitalize this word. What else would you like to know?" he asks. Sally answers, "Show me where you sprinkle in the little curvy marks." "Commas," Charlie states. "Whatever," Sally responds with a look of quiet desperation.​

What's the point of being an amateur if you can't enjoy being an amateur?

 

[sr71plt]

Chat room questioner: My son, Billy, has a headache and I sort of wonder if I should take him to the doctor.

Chat room responder: What my cousin Lily always did was to go to the kitchen and find a sharp knife in the drawer and dig down to where it aches.

Chat room questioner: I really like axes better than knives.

Chat room responder: No, you have to use a knife, because that's what my cousin Lily, the beautician, always used on her tomato salads.

Chat room questioner: Are you a brain surgeon, by the way?

Chat room responder: I stayed in a Holiday Inn one night.

Chat room questioner: But I really think an ax is more Me, if you know what I mean.

Chat room responder: Oh, well, it's all equal anyway. But what were you hoping to do with Billy in life, if I might ask?

Chat room questioner: Billy who?

 

[cloudy]

Chat room questioner: My son, Billy, has a headache and I sort of wonder if I should take him to the doctor.

Chat room responder: What my cousin Lily always did was to go to the kitchen and find a sharp knife in the drawer and dig down to where it aches.

Chat room questioner: I really like axes better than knives.

Chat room responder: No, you have to use a knife, because that's what my cousin Lily, the beautician, always used on her tomato salads.

Chat room questioner: Are you a brain surgeon, by the way?

Chat room responder: I stayed in a Holiday Inn one night.

Chat room questioner: But I really think an ax is more Me, if you know what I mean.

Chat room responder: Oh, well, it's all equal anyway. But what were you hoping to do with Billy in life, if I might ask?

Chat room questioner: Billy who?

srplt: Do what I say, and only what I say, because I know every little piece of minutae that has ever existed, or that will ever exist. Everyone else here is an idiot. I am the only person who knows absolutely everything there is to know about everything.

 

[sr71plt]

srplt: Do what I say, and only what I say, because I know every little piece of minutae that has ever existed, or that will ever exist. Everyone else here is an idiot. I am the only person who knows absolutely everything there is to know about everything.

Sure, if I have asked the question and you've responded by citing the specific guidance in the industry authority, chances are very likely I'll use it--or I wouldn't have bothered to ask in the first place. And I'll use clear industry standards if I'm pointed to them precisely because I don't make up the answers myself nor do I have ego issues that it has to be my way.

You didn't really have a point here, did you?

 

[cloudy]

nor do I have ego issues that it has to be my way.

Really? Do tell.

My point was actually much closer to reality than that cute little parody you posted.

 

[sr71plt]

Really? Do tell.

My point was actually much closer to reality than that cute little parody you posted.

Oh, I don't think you're that obtuse.

What I've done is cite sources--of authorities other than me. The whole thread was unnecessary if Elfin bothered to open a dictionary.

But if you want to play stupid and blind, have at it.