Anyone for a nightcap?

[JMohegan]

With a few notable exceptions, the moms I'm friends with are drawn to submissive fantasies in reaction to feeling oveworked and overtired. They want that all powerful man to take control so thy don' have to be in charge. Most of their husbands need to be coaxed into it. Probably because they're overworked and don't feel like being in charge in the bedroom either!

Maybe your friends are all higher up on the Great American Pyramid of Corporate Stress. Or lawyers!

Seriously, though - do you really think this is it? Both genders fitting into the "corporate executive wants his ass beaten" stereotypical role?

 

[LilyBart]

Maybe your friends are all higher up on the Great American Pyramid of Corporate Stress. Or lawyers!

Seriously, though - do you really think this is it? Both genders fitting into the "corporate executive wants his ass beaten" stereotypical role?

I'm too sleepy to contemplate this too deeply....but I think JM might be on to something here.

I'll be back tomorrow....

(drinking water tonight...)

 

[JMohegan]

I'm too sleepy to contemplate this too deeply....but I think JM might be on to something here.

I'll be back tomorrow....

(drinking water tonight...)

I'm actually asking ITW about the busy executive theory because I have a hard time getting my head around that concept as a motivation for pain play.

Everyone's different, of course, but submitting to me in the bedroom is not an easy or relaxing or "whew, what a relief this is from my hectic day!" type of thing. Sure, there might be catharsis and/or release (if I'm in the mood to deliver it), but it's not exactly a day at the spa.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I've actually been having all of these flashbacks to my high school self. I used to fantasize about having multiple boyfriends, and living alone, never getting married. And in high school I was very ra-ra about safe sex, condoms in school, and against all the born-again sacred virginity talk. And I was kind of considered out there for that.

So I started thinking I bet if more girls were be taught to be conscious of their sexuality, I wonder if they would have sex at an early age at all. I know several people on these boards have said otherwise, but I think most girls are not actually getting off if they have sex at age 14. I'm not a big ra-ra abstinence girl, but I'm just saying that if we taught girls it was okay to discover their sexuality and get off on their own, etc, I kind of wonder if a nice little byproduct might just be that abstinence rates go up anyway.

I agree totally! My daughter has been masturbating in one way or another since she was two. Other than explaining to her that it is something done in the privacy of her own bedroom, I encourage it.

 

[Netzach]

JMohegan
However, to my knowledge she's never done anything remotely *close* to the stuff you've described in posts about H. High end mindfuckery and edgy humiliation are not in her repertoire at all.

Most people don't and haven't and won't, not because it's intense, but because it's weird. It's barely sexual, even, tangentially sexual at best. My enjoyment and my needs involve more than just what's in my skirt, though, as do most people's so when people say "how can that possibly be a turn on for you, it MUST just be his fantasy" I can easily tell them to take a leap.

I don't know why that stuff turns me on, I don't know why it turns him on, it's just this glorious mutual itch which makes both of us extremely extremely weird.

I realize that the "spanking honey-do ha ha" "pants wearing woman" act is a feeler, I use it frequently myself, because it's all I've got.

Isn't it kind of weird that that's the best we have though, and if you're just "traditional" you have this marvelous blanket of plausible deniability as a male? Whereas to be non-threatening, we literally have to be ingratiating about it, we have to have a funny act. It's entirely possible your friend manages to avoid the peer pressure to do this little shuffle, I'm not made of that strong a stuff and usually I'm explaining myself to other women who do not find it erotic - ok, but not erotic.

Of course the side perk of the "I'm henpecked" humiliation works for some people. I wish all those guys would be like "yeah that's a bruise on my ass. I fucked the hottest woman in the world because I do what she says and you can barely get your wife to blow you if you paid her - problem?"

 

[Netzach]

I've also been masturbating since 2-3, was never made to feel a second's guilt about sex, and had all the info about everything I could need. Many times, many ways, at home and at school.

All the guilt loathing and twisty stuff has to do with POWER and SEX ROLE for me, but not about fucking. Makes no sense, but there it is. My mother did a really good job of making sure I was NOT parented by my grandparents when it came to this one thing.

AIDS was new news as I was about 10-12, so that definitely affected how much I wanted to fuck.

Peer pressure was kind of anti-fucking in my group. Most of us didn't date much, admittedly we were the nerds, but everyone in my school was very academically overstimulated or you were out.

I finally had the chance for some meaningless fucking at 18, before college. I stuck to handjobbery and groping, because it just didn't sound that hot with this particular person with whom nothing was going anywhere.

I definitely was saving myself for a relationship in which it was Meaningful. Not because anyone was beating that into me, but because that was what I decided.

 

[Netzach]

I'm actually asking ITW about the busy executive theory because I have a hard time getting my head around that concept as a motivation for pain play.

Everyone's different, of course, but submitting to me in the bedroom is not an easy or relaxing or "whew, what a relief this is from my hectic day!" type of thing. Sure, there might be catharsis and/or release (if I'm in the mood to deliver it), but it's not exactly a day at the spa.

I don't think that's really it - this doesn't compute for you because you really like being The Decider, probably even more than I do. Almost as much as the chimp does!

It's not about lying back like a princess and letting things happen, but it IS about not having to Decide what's going to happen.

I know that I like being the Delegator, so this doesn't always work for them, but it's really appreciated when it's pre-decided because I'm in a Decider mood.

There's something really power-trip toasty down below about "ok brain goes away now, mouth goes shut-up" - doing that to/for someone. Being able to switch your robot off mid sentence.

 

[LilyBart]

I don't think that's really it - this doesn't compute for you because you really like being The Decider, probably even more than I do. Almost as much as the chimp does!

It's not about lying back like a princess and letting things happen, but it IS about not having to Decide what's going to happen.

I know that I like being the Delegator, so this doesn't always work for them, but it's really appreciated when it's pre-decided because I'm in a Decider mood.

There's something really power-trip toasty down below about "ok brain goes away now, mouth goes shut-up" - doing that to/for someone. Being able to switch your robot off mid sentence.

Exactly.

 

[intothewoods]

Maybe your friends are all higher up on the Great American Pyramid of Corporate Stress. Or lawyers!

Seriously, though - do you really think this is it? Both genders fitting into the "corporate executive wants his ass beaten" stereotypical role?

I only have one friend who is into pain play, and always has been. She's not a lawyer. She's a sahm. She likes to top women, and dish it out, as well as receiving from men. This is a whole cultural thing for her. Not stress relief.

Another friend who is, yep, a lawyer, is heavy into humiliation play and exactly what Netzach described. Turn off brain! I don't know if this is a working mom thing, a female thing, or none of the above, but we do tend to be doing like ten things at once all the time and it is hard to stop and focus and just let go. Even if someone says, focus now! We really need the a certain type to convince us to stop now and let go.

I agree totally! My daughter has been masturbating in one way or another since she was two. Other than explaining to her that it is something done in the privacy of her own bedroom, I encourage it.

It's not just masturbation, although that's great. It's also something we were getting at in the discussion about raising daughters in the other thread. And boys have to contend with societal expectations to, of course. Although I don't want to go overboard about these things, because it's normal to want to fit in with your friends, but I just don't think that eleven year old girl who is choosing between crop top a and b at in the girl's department is really expressing herself or her sexuality. It's a complicated issue, and I'm just sort of babbling, but I am tired of how insane we are about sexuality. I've seen this insanity cause a lot of damage recently, and it's just driving me bonkers.

I don't think that's really it - this doesn't compute for you because you really like being The Decider, probably even more than I do. Almost as much as the chimp does!

It's not about lying back like a princess and letting things happen, but it IS about not having to Decide what's going to happen.

I know that I like being the Delegator, so this doesn't always work for them, but it's really appreciated when it's pre-decided because I'm in a Decider mood.

There's something really power-trip toasty down below about "ok brain goes away now, mouth goes shut-up" - doing that to/for someone. Being able to switch your robot off mid sentence.

Titter. You called JM the Decider!

I'm actually asking ITW about the busy executive theory because I have a hard time getting my head around that concept as a motivation for pain play.

Everyone's different, of course, but submitting to me in the bedroom is not an easy or relaxing or "whew, what a relief this is from my hectic day!" type of thing. Sure, there might be catharsis and/or release (if I'm in the mood to deliver it), but it's not exactly a day at the spa.

Lol, day at the spa. Okay, yeah, so this is really about me and my overachiever lawyer mom friend and types like us. That's the thing. We don't even like the spa! I typically can't make it through a 90 minute massage. I'll go nuts. I don't like this about myself at all, but it's true. I can do yoga because someone is talking and I have to follow directions to focus my mind. That's why it's actually relaxing to be submissive. Well, not relaxing exactly. Clears my head, more like. It's not like I hop on the bed and have stuff done to me or anything. In fact, that would make me mental. All that attention on me! I can't relax.

I guess the difference between an overachiever executive and a working mom is that we're not focused on work all day. I mean, clearly, otherwise what the fuck am I doing on Lit. It's like, work work, kid stuff, plan dinner, call the cable guy, schedule this or that, listen to the secretary tell me about her personal problem (because she can talk to me, not the boss) plan a playdate (the kid kind), pick up hubbie's dry-cleaning, blah blah blah. We're sort of like conductors with twenty different orchestras going at once. So hallelujah to have a man (in my case) close the door, everyone else goes bye bye now and you will listen to me and only me and do everything I tell you to for the next hour. Or whatever. But I have to email so and so about --- No, the only thing you have to is get on your knees. Oh, praise Jesus.

 

[Martini Man]

So hallelujah to have a man (in my case) close the door, everyone else goes bye bye now and you will listen to me and only me and do everything I tell you to for the next hour. Or whatever. But I have to email so and so about --- No, the only thing you have to is get on your knees. Oh, praise Jesus.

Yes, that's the part that interests me. To have a period of time where I don't have to think, just respond. To get to a state of being where I have no control (in all meanings of the word), and am not expected to have control.

I have too many responsibilities in life, so what interests me in submission is just to let those go away. It's a true sense of freedom.

 

[JMohegan]

Isn't it kind of weird that that's the best we have though, and if you're just "traditional" you have this marvelous blanket of plausible deniability as a male? Whereas to be non-threatening, we literally have to be ingratiating about it, we have to have a funny act. It's entirely possible your friend manages to avoid the peer pressure to do this little shuffle, I'm not made of that strong a stuff and usually I'm explaining myself to other women who do not find it erotic - ok, but not erotic.

Of course the side perk of the "I'm henpecked" humiliation works for some people. I wish all those guys would be like "yeah that's a bruise on my ass. I fucked the hottest woman in the world because I do what she says and you can barely get your wife to blow you if you paid her - problem?"

Yes, it's definitely weird. And I share your wish at the end there - though I've gotta point out that it seems like a pipe dream in more than one respect. Commenting on a guy's bruised ass would mean acknowledging that you'd actually looked at said ass in the first place - which is something very few hetero guys would ever be willing to do!

More seriously, though, "traditional" doesn't always go over very well in the "enlightened" second wave part of the world. It takes very little to launch the shrieking omg you're a pig or an asshole type of charge, and attempts at converting it to humor can sometimes make things worse. Not so much when a guy is talking to other guys, but when talking to certain females there is definitely that risk.

Maybe this is generational, I don't know. My partners and I have taken so much flak over the years, for even little things like the "no covering the neck" rule. I was actually encouraged when ITW wrote a surprised response to my post about that on a different thread. If she can't relate to that type of pressure, then maybe things are getting better in this regard.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't think that's really it - this doesn't compute for you because you really like being The Decider, probably even more than I do. Almost as much as the chimp does!

It's not about lying back like a princess and letting things happen, but it IS about not having to Decide what's going to happen.

I know that I like being the Delegator, so this doesn't always work for them, but it's really appreciated when it's pre-decided because I'm in a Decider mood.

There's something really power-trip toasty down below about "ok brain goes away now, mouth goes shut-up" - doing that to/for someone. Being able to switch your robot off mid sentence.

Re the chimp - HAHAHA!

As for the rest of this, thanks for explaining. And thanks to ITW and Martini Man for their responses on this, too. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[JMohegan]

Titter. You called JM the Decider!

Normally I'd say something like, "I've been called worse." But in this case, it just wouldn't be true!

 

[intothewoods]

<snip>

Maybe this is generational, I don't know. My partners and I have taken so much flak over the years, for even little things like the "no covering the neck" rule. I was actually encouraged when ITW wrote a surprised response to my post about that on a different thread. If she can't relate to that type of pressure, then maybe things are getting better in this regard.

Yeah, you came of age with the women's lib generation and all that right? I feel like a nice thing about my generation of women is that we are more focused on actual choice, not what someone else says our choice should be. The downside is women my age (and, just from what I've seen) and women in their 20s and college age tend to completely disregard what feminism has accomplished. I can't believe how often I still hear, well, of course I believe in equal pay for equal work, but gawd, I'm no feminist.

 

[LilyBart]

I'm actually asking ITW about the busy executive theory because I have a hard time getting my head around that concept as a motivation for pain play.

Everyone's different, of course, but submitting to me in the bedroom is not an easy or relaxing or "whew, what a relief this is from my hectic day!" type of thing. Sure, there might be catharsis and/or release (if I'm in the mood to deliver it), but it's not exactly a day at the spa.

And this, JM, is why I prefer a day at the spa.

Actually, all fun aside, I do think Neztach, Martini Man and ITW probably described it better than I could have...but in my (slightly limited experience), many people who have complex lives requiring a lot of decisioning or planning, really just need a break from that...that break brings great pleasure. So it can take place in the bedroom or at the spa or wherever one gets the greatest release. Personally, I have a very hard time giving up control. So I get my kicks out of someone else planning the dinner menu. Its the best I can do.

~LB

 

[00Syd]

Yeah, you came of age with the women's lib generation and all that right? I feel like a nice thing about my generation of women is that we are more focused on actual choice, not what someone else says our choice should be. The downside is women my age (and, just from what I've seen) and women in their 20s and college age tend to completely disregard what feminism has accomplished. I can't believe how often I still hear, well, of course I believe in equal pay for equal work, but gawd, I'm no feminist.

That annoys me too. I remember talking to friends of mine in high school about going to a pro-choice march in DC and being totally flabbergasted when they started putting down feminists and talking about how annoying they are and all this total CRAP. At the time I couldn't find the words to try and explain to them how much bulllshit that was, though I'm sure if the issue came up now I could talk their ears off. I think a big reason why women of my generation are so against being labeled a feminist is that when they hear the word, all they can think of is this now corny bra-burning, butch, speech-afying, never-shuts-up, feminist stereotype (in effect, many of their mothers, and who wants to be their mother?), and can't see past that to the true meaning of the word. Its a shallow thing, but I think thats a big reason. I think another reason for my generations resistance to feminism is that while yes, there are still many women's issues that need fighting, for a large part the battle has been won, and younger women want to move on to their own fight, not carry on their mothers.

Not to mention my generations unfortunate tendency to be apathetic about most important things.

 

[Netzach]

Yes, it's definitely weird. And I share your wish at the end there - though I've gotta point out that it seems like a pipe dream in more than one respect. Commenting on a guy's bruised ass would mean acknowledging that you'd actually looked at said ass in the first place - which is something very few hetero guys would ever be willing to do!

More seriously, though, "traditional" doesn't always go over very well in the "enlightened" second wave part of the world. It takes very little to launch the shrieking omg you're a pig or an asshole type of charge, and attempts at converting it to humor can sometimes make things worse. Not so much when a guy is talking to other guys, but when talking to certain females there is definitely that risk.

Maybe this is generational, I don't know. My partners and I have taken so much flak over the years, for even little things like the "no covering the neck" rule. I was actually encouraged when ITW wrote a surprised response to my post about that on a different thread. If she can't relate to that type of pressure, then maybe things are getting better in this regard.

I guess I'd be like "you're an idiot if you let him decide what you wear, unless, you know, that's what gets you off and makes you happy or that's your belief system personally, in which case rock on with your scarfless self." If people are just doing things because they can't imagine any other way of doing them existing, that's not D/s, it's just the patriarchy sucking. I'm pretty sensitive to it, but when someone's consciously deciding on letting him pick her panties or wearing the hijab, then it becomes feminism in action - women having agency to do what they want.

 

[LilyBart]

It's time to sweep away deep (although important) thoughts from this room and restore it to its original purpose.

I am having a Sam Adams Cherry Wheat brew. Blech.
Next time...a Bud Light. Or anything else but Cherry in my beer.

Note to ITW... don't think I didn't see your reference to Bud Light as punishment earlier today. Tsk.

Contemplating my upcoming spa day...

~LB

 

[intothewoods]

I guess I'd be like "you're an idiot if you let him decide what you wear, unless, you know, that's what gets you off and makes you happy or that's your belief system personally, in which case rock on with your scarfless self." If people are just doing things because they can't imagine any other way of doing them existing, that's not D/s, it's just the patriarchy sucking. I'm pretty sensitive to it, but when someone's consciously deciding on letting him pick her panties or wearing the hijab, then it becomes feminism in action - women having agency to do what they want.

Omg. I'm generally pretty pig-headed about how much funnier I am than, like, everyone, but "rock on with your scarfless self" is one of the funniest things I have ever read. And this after the Decider joke. Shit. You are funnier than me. Damn.

Collecting myself here...

I do have some friends with husbands who are just assholes. There is no way it's part of some negotiated dynamic. I don't say much, because what is there to say? I don't pretend it's all wonderful or anything, but I don't say, you should get a divorce, because they won't. I often suggest counseling, but most don't do it. Honestly? My reaction is I don't want to hang out with them because it depresses the hell out of me. It's one of the reasons I got out of the burbs actually. Enough already. I'll take overly political correct liberals to miserable Republican housewives.

 

[intothewoods]

It's time to sweep away deep (although important) thoughts from this room and restore it to its original purpose.

I am having a Sam Adams Cherry Wheat brew. Blech.
Next time...a Bud Light. Or anything else but Cherry in my beer.

Note to ITW... don't think I didn't see your reference to Bud Light as punishment earlier today. Tsk.

Contemplating my upcoming spa day...



~LB

Yeah, I never liked that one. I was drinking a leffe blonde beer earlier. You might like it!

That post was comic genius, if I do say so myself.

That annoys me too. I remember talking to friends of mine in high school about going to a pro-choice march in DC and being totally flabbergasted when they started putting down feminists and talking about how annoying they are and all this total CRAP. At the time I couldn't find the words to try and explain to them how much bulllshit that was, though I'm sure if the issue came up now I could talk their ears off. I think a big reason why women of my generation are so against being labeled a feminist is that when they hear the word, all they can think of is this now corny bra-burning, butch, speech-afying, never-shuts-up, feminist stereotype (in effect, many of their mothers, and who wants to be their mother?), and can't see past that to the true meaning of the word. Its a shallow thing, but I think thats a big reason. I think another reason for my generations resistance to feminism is that while yes, there are still many women's issues that need fighting, for a large part the battle has been won, and younger women want to move on to their own fight, not carry on their mothers.

Not to mention my generations unfortunate tendency to be apathetic about most important things.

Yeah, well, I think young women don't want to be man-hating. And Rush said the word feminazi so many times it stuck! And there are feminist extremists who get press, and people think, well, I don't agree with that, so I must not be a feminist.

 

[00Syd]

Yeah, well, I think young women don't want to be man-hating. And Rush said the word feminazi so many times it stuck! And there are feminist extremists who get press, and people think, well, I don't agree with that, so I must not be a feminist.

Purty much.

 

[LilyBart]

OK, so I branched out and had a Hefeweissen tonight. Did I spell that right?
Tasty.
But too heavy for summer, I think.
Either that or my taste buds have been corrupted by all that Bud Light.

Tomorrow's Friday. Maybe a Cape Cod or or Vodka and Cranberry is in order?
Or perhaps, even, a margarita.

I'm done with beer for a while. Unless I can have a Bud Light, that is.

~LB

 

[Netzach]

OK, so I branched out and had a Hefeweissen tonight. Did I spell that right?
Tasty.
But too heavy for summer, I think.
Either that or my taste buds have been corrupted by all that Bud Light.

Tomorrow's Friday. Maybe a Cape Cod or or Vodka and Cranberry is in order?
Or perhaps, even, a margarita.

I'm done with beer for a while. Unless I can have a Bud Light, that is.

~LB

Stick some lemon in the Heffewiezen.

I had Tabula Rasa Cab - omg. Wow.

 

[Netzach]

Omg. I'm generally pretty pig-headed about how much funnier I am than, like, everyone, but "rock on with your scarfless self" is one of the funniest things I have ever read. And this after the Decider joke. Shit. You are funnier than me. Damn.

Oh no, I don't think so. Not after what you said in the great bestiality debate v 8.2

 

[LilyBart]

On the young feminists...or non-feminists, whatever...

My mother marched for the ERA in Washington way back when.
I was a young volunteer.
I wouldn't put either my mother or myself in the feminazi category...even using Limbaugh's standards. But it all trickles down. My daughters are acutely aware and are not afraid, ever, to point out inconsistencies to authorities. Or at least to me.

Both are feminine, but strong young women. OK, one is not quite yet a woman, but the other is the same age as 00Syd. The older one was involved in historically (not necessarily traditionally) male dominated activities since her early teen years. But more than that, I see her and her peers, now all self-possesed young women of 20 or 21 years who really don't put up with much. In fact, I think they are all Dommes in the making if you ask me. Maybe not sexually, but socially and politically...yep. Most of an open mind and willing to explore the world...whatever that world is. Far less judgement than of previous generations. And not afraid to ask for what they want.

Perhaps its the environment (although my daughters have led maybe a slightly priviledged life compared to the greater universe of girls this age,) I like to think that my daughters and their peers have, for the most part, had open-minded parents who encouraged them to question any and all. At least that is what I have hoped for. No topic has ever been off limits in our house and I believe, personally, that this is what fosters intellectual growth and the courage to challenge anyone else's idea of what is "right."

Really, being able to speak your mind without fear of judgement... disagreement, OK... I think this is the root of keeping empowerment...anyone's empowerment, alive.

While there's still a way to go in terms of pure equality in income and other points, I am really impressed with the young women that I see, at least. Feminism is not a fad. Maybe the word...but not the philosophy.

Back to my nightcap.


~LB