An interesting way to get Kids Attention

[Guest]

He's flinging poo again.

 

[Recidiva]

He's flinging poo again.

Still. Always.

But don't take it personally. Again, I don't think he can do anything differently.

It matters when it's someone who otherwise exhibits reason and a basic belief that kindness and compassion aren't myths. If you were to say something like that, I'd worry.

 

[Guest]

Still. Always.

But don't take it personally. Again, I don't think he can do anything differently.

It matters when it's someone who otherwise exhibits reason and a basic belief that kindness and compassion aren't myths. If you were to say something like that, I'd worry.

That is a lovely thing to say, thank you.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

CLOUDY

Uh, you know, the Noble Savage doesnt have to remain on the reservation. They got a choice: a fist full of Bob's cash or Door #3. Apparently most chose the cash.

My kin reside adjacent to a Mickosukee plot. My bunch picked Door #3, the Seminoles took the cash. The Seminole are exactly what you describe. Mine, on the otherhand, sold their development rights for 10 MIILION bucks. The whole gang has new trucks and doublewides.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

People only fling poo after they leave the trees and start wearing underpants and shoes. Stay in the trees if you want, its a free country.

 

[Recidiva]

People only fling poo after they leave the trees and start wearing underpants and shoes. Stay in the trees if you want, its a free country.

Oh for goodness sake, that was entirely lame and on par with "Oh yeah!?"

Are you feeling well today?

 

[ms.read]

Actually I hate that idea.

I really do. Children get desks because we want them to grow up and be healthy and strong and have respect for themselves. Childhood is the time to be protected by adults. Not held responsible for adult behavior.

It's way too early to be giving them a social inferiority complex. That'll hit somewhere around junior High.

Ick. I'd pull my kid out of that class or tell the school board to take away her desk until she joins the fire department or the EMT squad and stops terrorizing little kids.

These people(the vets) protect our freedoms every day.

 

[cloudy]

These people(the vets) protect our freedoms every day.

They do? Really? Protect our freedoms from what, pray tell? Our own president has taken away what little bit of freedom we had, piece by piece. Don't give me that crap. Think about what you're saying instead of parroting some line you've heard.

When was the last war fought on home soil? Weren't we killing ourselves then, and not repelling an invasion.

Please.



Best bumper sticker I've seen lately: "Be nice to Americans, or we'll bring democracy to YOUR country."

 

[Stella_Omega]

Diva: The students themselves, after the class had continued and their interest did not diminish, lauded her for shocking them out of their stupor. Granted, it wasn't the way any of US would have done it, but it worked. And, all things considered, one day's worth of shock value to wake up a student for the rest of his or her life could well be worth it, IMO.

Cloudy: You're right. She didn't teach history that day. But she taught a hell of a lot of it for the rest of the year. What she taught sunk in and stayed there. What she did on that one day - again, not something any of us would do - opened her students' minds to the history she DID teach for the rest of the year.


I never said anything about agreeing with exactly what she did, or how she did it. There are plenty of other ways she could have gotten that same shock value with less of a pro-military stance and more of a truly historical context. However, she has been painted as a rather close-minded and shallow person in this thread for having done this exercise. She is neither. She is a very intelligent person that wanted to make a difference. How she chose to do that - using veterans and lack of desks - was probably not the best way to do it, but it worked.

What it seems that none of you realise is that she does mildly regret having used that exact method. I worked with her and volunteered in her classroom after this happened. She and I spoke about it a bit, and she did express her regrets for having used the veterans as an example, and she taught those students that the government and the military structure within the government have screwed up many, many times. Like I said, she tries to teach both sides.

This is what I hate and detest about these types of articles. Here's Diva, worked up to the point where she's going to ignore any extra information-- and there was no extra information there in the first place. The facts were carefully chosen to make a BIG POINT-- at the expense of the rest of the facts, which together make a more truthful picture.

These points were not in the article;

1) This was not the very beginning of school, and they were not elementary or middle-school students.
2) The teacher was trying to get them to pay better attention.
3)She does teach more than one side.
4) She she seems to feel that her example wasn't wholly accurate, according to Maeve, and has said she would like to find an equally compelling stunt that does not look so pro-military.

These people(the vets) protect our freedoms every day.

No, they are just guys that were in the armed forces. Some of them fought for just reasons, some wanted to kill gooks, some got screwed by our government.

They certainly embody the concept of protection-- but the symbol is not the thing symbolised.

 

[jomar]

Well, I started back-reading on Sarahh's poo flinging comment and finally got back to the beginning. Ya'll ever do that?

Anyway. I didn't have the strong reaction some have had, though I respect perspectives and histories.

I don't mind that she did this. I do think she should have thought it through more. It was clumsy and she could have had a far better and encompassing message. And we all know what she (and others) mean with the '...English, thank a soldier' line. But again, clumsy and insulting to many.

She was trying to grab the kids. I think her heart was in the right place, but her execution flawed. If my kid were in her class I would have talked to him/her and processed it. And if her actions stimulated discussion, even heated - isn't that good?

But after all this, I must say that I am concerned for the Arkansas educational system, because, apparently, none of these high school students taking her military history class guessed that the missing desks had anything to do with the military.

 

[Maeve_redux]

Diva: I had a response typed up when the cable modem crashed this morning, then had to go to work and forgot most of it. But what it boiled down to is that I respect this particular teacher, and would like my children to take her classes if they were in that district.

Cloudy: You should know by now that I'm on your side with this. We've had quite a few discussions on the topic of how the natives were - and are - treated, and have agreed on almost every single point. No need to talk to me on it, remember? I admitted you were right on this one. She very well could have made her point in a very different and better manner.

 

[cloudy]

Diva: I had a response typed up when the cable modem crashed this morning, then had to go to work and forgot most of it. But what it boiled down to is that I respect this particular teacher, and would like my children to take her classes if they were in that district.

Cloudy: You should know by now that I'm on your side with this. We've had quite a few discussions on the topic of how the natives were - and are - treated, and have agreed on almost every single point. No need to talk to me on it, remember? I admitted you were right on this one. She very well could have made her point in a very different and better manner.

Indeed, she could have. I'm not even a little bit thankful that I grew up speaking English and now have to struggle as an adult to learn the language that is my birthright.

Tell her that next time you talk to her.

 

[Maeve_redux]

If the chance ever comes again, I will. And I will ask if she would integrate that into her class, just as she has integrated how the military fucked over your people and took the rights they should have always had.

It seems you're still judging her a bit harshly for this one act. I don't blame you for that at all. She should be judged for it. Hell, she judges herself for it, and has admitted that she should have done something different. But she does try to teach both sides of any topic she covers. That includes the military actions against the natives.

 

[cloudy]

If the chance ever comes again, I will. And I will ask if she would integrate that into her class, just as she has integrated how the military fucked over your people and took the rights they should have always had.

It seems you're still judging her a bit harshly for this one act. I don't blame you for that at all. She should be judged for it. Hell, she judges herself for it, and has admitted that she should have done something different. But she does try to teach both sides of any topic she covers. That includes the military actions against the natives.

I probably am judging her a little harshly, however, if you only realized how many times I see something like "If you can do XXXX, thank a soldier," and how that hits a lot of people....she probably didn't even tack that on the end there, but the men and women in the military are people, just like you and me. As 3113 said earlier, it's almost like there's this cult of military worship going on. We saw it earlier when people are parroting statements like "Our military is protecting our freedoms." I'm so sick of that.

It's not the soldiers that are at fault. I realize they have a difficult job, but that's exactly what it is - a job. But people tend to forget that it IS a job; they ARE getting paid to do it. Yes, it's difficult. Yes, it's hazardous, but it is also something they chose to do.

As far as "protecting our freedoms" go - that's the kind of thing people say when they're just too damn lazy to think for themselves.

Forgive me, I'm rambling because it's late, but I think you, if no one else, will understand my conflict over what she did, and how thoughtless it seems to me.

 

[EurasianRhapsody]

if you ask me, gimmicky and without substance.

 

[Recidiva]

Diva: I had a response typed up when the cable modem crashed this morning, then had to go to work and forgot most of it. But what it boiled down to is that I respect this particular teacher, and would like my children to take her classes if they were in that district.

Cloudy: You should know by now that I'm on your side with this. We've had quite a few discussions on the topic of how the natives were - and are - treated, and have agreed on almost every single point. No need to talk to me on it, remember? I admitted you were right on this one. She very well could have made her point in a very different and better manner.

I'm not at all trying to tell anyone they shouldn't respect/like/whatever.

Just preserving my right to call bullshit and Emperor's new clothes when I see it, and teach my kids to do the same.

The lesson of Emperor's new clothes is valid. But keep in mind it was a child that saw through it. And in my opinion, she's the emperor in this gig.

She's not here, so I can't ask her. Nor do I think she'd give a damn what I think, so I can just go on thinking it.

 

[Maeve_redux]

I probably am judging her a little harshly, however, if you only realized how many times I see something like "If you can do XXXX, thank a soldier," and how that hits a lot of people....she probably didn't even tack that on the end there, but the men and women in the military are people, just like you and me. As 3113 said earlier, it's almost like there's this cult of military worship going on. We saw it earlier when people are parroting statements like "Our military is protecting our freedoms." I'm so sick of that.

It's not the soldiers that are at fault. I realize they have a difficult job, but that's exactly what it is - a job. But people tend to forget that it IS a job; they ARE getting paid to do it. Yes, it's difficult. Yes, it's hazardous, but it is also something they chose to do.

As far as "protecting our freedoms" go - that's the kind of thing people say when they're just too damn lazy to think for themselves.

Forgive me, I'm rambling because it's late, but I think you, if no one else, will understand my conflict over what she did, and how thoughtless it seems to me.

-nods- I gotcha. No worries on the rambling, it actually made it a bit clearer.

It's impossible for me to understand EXACTLY where you're coming from, but the general sentiment is very much there. Shoot... I'm the one that has pointed out on a few occasions that the soldiers aren't the only ones overseas. There are the reporters, archaeological teams, people that happened to be in the wrong place in the wrong time, volunteers for different organisations, etc. Sometimes people forget that. Even the soldiers that were just there and have just come home, who saw these people doing their jobs.

Diva: I think you're judging a bit harshly as well, but there's not a whole lot that can be said at this point. My arguements for her have been made. Your opinion is your own, and you're more than entitled to it.

 

[Recidiva]

Diva: I think you're judging a bit harshly as well, but there's not a whole lot that can be said at this point. My arguements for her have been made. Your opinion is your own, and you're more than entitled to it.

That's okay. I'll take harsh and on point compared to well meaning headed the wrong way.

I'm tolerant of ignorance in general existing in the world. I'm not tolerant of someone teaching it to my kids, and I will fight that.

And being passionate and interested and willing to fight for something was what this teacher was trying to teach. However, if I'm actually doing it, I'm "harsh."

Ironic.

 

[Maeve_redux]

That's okay. I'll take harsh and on point compared to well meaning headed the wrong way.

I'm tolerant of ignorance in general existing in the world. I'm not tolerant of someone teaching it to my kids, and I will fight that.

And being passionate and interested and willing to fight for something was what this teacher was trying to teach. However, if I'm actually doing it, I'm "harsh."

Ironic.

Hold your toes on a minute, here. There was no irony in what I was saying from my particular point of view. At least there was no intended irony. Words don't come through as they should sometimes.

Nowhere did I say that you were wrong in being intolerant of somebody teaching idiocy to your children. Nobody should teach them to be sheep, and take for granted that "they" will always take care of you. You're perfectly in the right to be fighting for that. However, it seems you've missed the entire point behind my arguements for this particular teacher.

Yes, she taught that the military fought to give us certain rights. At least on that particular day. Maybe it was a little bit of hero worship.

Then she taught that the military has taken certain rights from other people. Not on that day, no, but on several others.

Again, she teaches both sides. She lets the students draw their own conclusions about who was right and wrong. She's trying to get rid of the ignorance of these people, and teach them to gather all the information they can and think for themselves. That seems to be what you would want your children to learn.

If you want harsh and on point, it can be put this way: You're being blind. You've closed your mind to the fact that this teacher used a bad example on one day, but tried to make up for it later. She is doing what it sounds like you're fighting for, and you could see that if you'd open yourself and reread my arguements for her, since she's not here to argue for herself. THAT is irony.

 

[Recidiva]

Hold your toes on a minute, here. There was no irony in what I was saying from my particular point of view. At least there was no intended irony. Words don't come through as they should sometimes.

Nowhere did I say that you were wrong in being intolerant of somebody teaching idiocy to your children. Nobody should teach them to be sheep, and take for granted that "they" will always take care of you. You're perfectly in the right to be fighting for that. However, it seems you've missed the entire point behind my arguements for this particular teacher.

Yes, she taught that the military fought to give us certain rights. At least on that particular day. Maybe it was a little bit of hero worship.

Then she taught that the military has taken certain rights from other people. Not on that day, no, but on several others.

Again, she teaches both sides. She lets the students draw their own conclusions about who was right and wrong. She's trying to get rid of the ignorance of these people, and teach them to gather all the information they can and think for themselves. That seems to be what you would want your children to learn.

If you want harsh and on point, it can be put this way: You're being blind. You've closed your mind to the fact that this teacher used a bad example on one day, but tried to make up for it later. She is doing what it sounds like you're fighting for, and you could see that if you'd open yourself and reread my arguements for her, since she's not here to argue for herself. THAT is irony.

Your arguments for her have nothing to do with the point she taught.

I continue to reiterate that you're essentially arguing "But she meant well! She taught kids that stuff can add up to seven!"

Bad math and bad lessons deserve criticism. I'm not having the discussion with her. I'm having it with you.

If I spend the grocery money on lottery tickets and say "Well, you know, I taught people that spending money is possible!" I'm deserving of criticism and correction. I don't get to defend my behavior by saying "But otherwise I keep house so well! And my family loves me."

Good intentions don't count when you are ultimately responsible for demonstrating how to do something correctly. And labeling criticism as being "overly harsh" when it's really just requiring that a certain standard of logic or social behavior be upheld, is just behaving exactly the same way.

I don't tell my kids that if they "meant" to do homework, but they scribbled on the wall, that's basically the same. I expect them to have a standard. There's no credit for "But I tried."

Succeed. Simple.

And definitely pay the price if you're so ignorant of your subject matter that you're teaching bad behavior and masquerading as an authority.

I don't tell my kids that they should just get good grades because they mean well. I should just get a paycheck because I'm so gosh darn agreeable and idealistic.

You get something because you earn it, not just 'cause you want it so bad you should just have it for free. I have paid for a few desks.

Or should the state just give me credit for taxes 'cause I'm so patriotic and mean well?

She made a power grab, removed a right the kids' parents had secured for them, and assigned the creation of that right to someone else who was entirely disconnected from the process.

She asked a question that couldn't be answered all day because the kids couldn't possibly have come to the messed up answer she provided.

It's like being told at a spelling bee "How do you spell 'Parents'"

"P-A-R-E-N-T-S"

"No. It's spelled 'P-A-T-R-I-O-T-I-S-M'"

There are people in this thread who'd be apoplectic at their kids getting a bad grade when they spelled something right and told they were spelling it wrong. Maybe in that context, standards mean something.

There was a right answer to the question she asked. She didn't provide it. I'm hoping she didn't know it and she learned something. But that doesn't mean she gets credit for hijacking the learning process and abusing the right to be considered an authority on a subject she can't use in a sentence. Yes, patriotism is a word worth learning. In context.

 

[Maeve_redux]

I agree that her message that day was garbled at best. Always have. But, in a sense, she was correct. We are able to pay the taxes for things like desks partially in part because of military actions. Not wholly, not by a long shot, but partially. So in a way she was partially correct. And, after teaching about how other things have played a part in earning the rights and privileges which we have here that many people elsewhere in the world don't have, she did teach a good lesson. Unfortunately, only a small part of this lesson was covered in the article.

I also agree that she should have been called out for screwing this one up. She wasn't, though, and was actually lauded for it. Which she regrets. Much like having children scribble on the walls instead of doing homework. Their artwork may be held in high regards, but they tend to regret their actions when the grades come in. Her standards on this are actually higher than the people responsible for the article and the people higher up on the food chain at the school who applauded her for it.

Unfortunately, it seems the words that would explain this in a good way just aren't coming. That happens sometimes. The words are THERE but simply won't form into something that makes sense. I'm sorry for wasting your time with the arguement when the mental capacity just isn't there right now on my end.

 

[Recidiva]

I agree that her message that day was garbled at best. Always have. But, in a sense, she was correct. We are able to pay the taxes for things like desks partially in part because of military actions. Not wholly, not by a long shot, but partially. So in a way she was partially correct. And, after teaching about how other things have played a part in earning the rights and privileges which we have here that many people elsewhere in the world don't have, she did teach a good lesson. Unfortunately, only a small part of this lesson was covered in the article.

I also agree that she should have been called out for screwing this one up. She wasn't, though, and was actually lauded for it. Which she regrets. Much like having children scribble on the walls instead of doing homework. Their artwork may be held in high regards, but they tend to regret their actions when the grades come in. Her standards on this are actually higher than the people responsible for the article and the people higher up on the food chain at the school who applauded her for it.

Unfortunately, it seems the words that would explain this in a good way just aren't coming. That happens sometimes. The words are THERE but simply won't form into something that makes sense. I'm sorry for wasting your time with the arguement when the mental capacity just isn't there right now on my end.

You've explained it well enough. I just disagree. I believe that progress is made by people working hard and getting the right answers consistently. Just that is what is required.

I get that she's regretful, and again, I don't particularly care.

I'm dealing with this in the abstract, I know you're thinking I'm beating her up for going above and beyond.

I'm critical of the idea because instead of going above and beyond, it went below and far short. So it was a slow news day and someone wasn't particularly thinking it through. Fine. I can say the same to them.

Teachers get through to their students every day by caring and teaching what's relevant. I had quite a few of them myself and I honor how they contributed to my life - without ever calling a press conference or teaching me something wrong. I think this is an insult to all the people who do their job every day and get that done without drama or gimmicks. All the teachers who didn't treat me as if I were bored or stupid, but treated me as if I deserved the truth and they wanted me well armed for life. The people who taught me how to think for myself.

I personally hope she's one of those people now. Great. I don't know, and my opinion of that doesn't matter. My kids weren't in her class. If they were, this is what I'd say.

 

[Maeve_redux]

Then your opinion and mine differ. Such is life.

It's my opinion that she did give a full and right answer, but it took the course of the class to do so. It's also unfortunate both that it took so long to get that full answer and that this one part was highlighted by some goober who was bored with the rest of the local news. If I didn't know her personally, I would probably be fully with you.

As it is, I was serious about not having the mental capacity to argue this further right now. I'm sorry.

 

[Recidiva]

Then your opinion and mine differ. Such is life.

It's my opinion that she did give a full and right answer, but it took the course of the class to do so. It's also unfortunate both that it took so long to get that full answer and that this one part was highlighted by some goober who was bored with the rest of the local news. If I didn't know her personally, I would probably be fully with you.

As it is, I was serious about not having the mental capacity to argue this further right now. I'm sorry.

Feel better and be assured, no ill will from me.

Just an opinion

 

[Oblimo]

'You didn't earn the right to sit at these desks.'

That's correct. It's a right provided to them from the civilian legislature, which in turn got its power to do so from the civilian people of the United States.

Just like the military.

'These heroes did it for you.'

There is a difference between owing respect and owing awe. In my opinion, this story's moral leans far too far toward "you owe me awe" than makes me comfortable.