An interesting way to get Kids Attention

[christabelll]

I'm not attacking you. I'm not attacking the teacher. I'm defending my children from being taught the wrong message: That they're bored, unappreciative, and need to bow to authority to earn their spot on this earth.

That I whole heartedly agree with. I just dont see how that was taught by this teacher. Sorry - I really dont see that that is what she did.

 

[cloudy]

Straw man shot full of wholes...

hold on here... I did not ever assume you lived in a damn wigwam... good god... THis is now yes? But telling me I have to be guilty for the past is as full of holes as you say I am... I know why I dance. To connect with the earth and give all that I am through my connection with her. She holds me succors me and will hold and succor more to come. I follow a more european path its true however I greatly honor this earth and all her peoples. I wish I knew more than the small tales that filtered through my family. But I am not allowed to claim that part of myself through "cherokee" law... I am not real enough....

What I mean by living in the present is to honor the past but not wallow in it!

Who said I was "wallowing" in it?

Because I refuse to forgive and forget? Sorry, not gonna happen, and you can do better than that for an argument. Those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

I don't suppose you've ever danced...not the way I meant, since you took it in a totally different direction. Since you claim native ancestry, you should try it.

(and "holes," the way I used it, is spelled this way)

eta: do you tell Jews to leave the Holocaust in the past, stop "wallowing" and live in the present, too? How's that work for ya?

 

[christabelll]

Who said I was "wallowing" in it?

Because I refuse to forgive and forget? Sorry, not gonna happen, and you can do better than that for an argument. Those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

I don't suppose you've ever danced...not the way I meant, since you took it in a totally different direction. Since you claim native ancestry, you should try it.

(and "holes," the way I used it, is spelled this way)

I went back and changed it! (and that was just petty lolol)

I was never allowed to participate because I wasnt pure enough (blonde and blue) where we grew up. I have gone to many powwows and gatherings over the years and definitely felt the outsider looking in, so all I could do was sway in the corner and listen with all of my being. I dance at "pagan" gatherings for the turnings of the year. Its more or less the same - probably different terminology to express the same thing... and I have had this arguement many times... you arent native so you cant understand... well I aint pure nothing and I do understand - maybe not the way you would want me to - but I do walk with stag, wolf and bear and coyote comes around to. I still have my connections and I still have the wampum necklaces my grandmothers many times removed made.

Not native? Hell I'm more native than most LOL

I did not say forget it either - but dragging it out and shaking the bad smelling shit over everything gets rather onerous at times - hate what was done and be vigilant so that it never happens again. (and yet it did in germany) and cambodia and iraq and ethiopia... and damn its still happening!??

So do we take this to this streets - or do like we always seem to do - make a law! or ignore it and hope it goes away? Or is it... as long as it dont bother me none - I dont care? (please note these are generalized statements here not directed at anybody in particular)

 

[christabelll]

*snip*
eta: do you tell Jews to leave the Holocaust in the past, stop "wallowing" and live in the present, too? How's that work for ya?

I actually know a few survivors and their children and grand children and so on

They do not wallow. They do not forget but they dont drag it out and shake all over everything either and then wonder why people who had nothing to do with it get a bit miffy when they are expected to "pay" for their tragic past.... They live in the present and look back with sorrow and gratitude that they survived to have children and grand children and so on. They are truly some incredible people and I am priveledged to know them.

Horrible sure as shit was... and IGNORED until American Soldiers and Correspondants sent home the pictures and then the hew and cry began... it wasnt until then that America really got involved with the European side of the war if you recall (and I recall correctly?)

 

[tickledkitty]

This seems like a pretty pointless exercise to me. When I started reading, I thought the point was that the kids would have to earn the right to sit in a desk. This other makes no sense to me. I'm sure most of the kids just rolled their eyes and went on about their day without even thinking about it again. The desks were taken away, and then they were brought back without the kids having to do anything at all. What does that even mean? It seems like a whole lot of drama for a kind of vague and tentative lesson.

Her little speech seemed preachy to me, as well. Her job is to teach history, so where did she get the idea that teaching morals to other peoples' children is ok?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I actually know a few survivors and their children and grand children and so on

They do not wallow. They do not forget but they dont drag it out and shake all over everything either and then wonder why people who had nothing to do with it get a bit miffy when they are expected to "pay" for their tragic past.... They live in the present and look back with sorrow and gratitude that they survived to have children and grand children and so on. They are truly some incredible people and I am priveledged to know them.

Um. I don't know of many Jews who want other people to "pay" for their past.
I know many Jews who don't want people to forget it, nor pretend it never happened, nor pretend it will never happen again.

Of course there are many people who think that being reminded of the past equals "being asked to pay for it."

But please-- and Cloudy, you too-- keep hyperbole down to a dull roar, okay?

Horrible sure as shit was... and IGNORED until American Soldiers and Correspondants sent home the pictures and then the hew and cry began... it wasnt until then that America really got involved with the European side of the war if you recall (and I recall correctly?)

America got involved in WWII when the japanese bomnbed Pearl harbor.
By the time the pictures started coming here, we were well involved. There was no chance of pictures showing up before that, because the European Allies hadn't gotten close enough. But there were underground railroads all over Europe, moving Jews out of danger-- three years before the Pogroms officially started.

People in Europe knew what was happening. People in the USA didn't know so much.

 

[Recidiva]

I object to this reasoning as much as I object to the same thing essentially being done in religion.

"Christ earned your desk (or soul, say) because he died for your sins."

Whoah. Whoah. Wait. Whoah. Back up...let's talk about this logically.

Even Sunday school desks are paid for by the congregation.

 

[Vermilion]

Surely kids 'earn' their desks - or place at school - by their desire to learn. Humans are born with an insatiable appetite for knowledge and learning, how sad that some lose that as they get older, either through their own inclination or, more usually, because of the influences around them. I don't see what soldiers have to do with childrens' education, they're just doing a job.

x
V

 

[cloudy]

But please-- and Cloudy, you too-- keep hyperbole down to a dull roar, okay?

I wasn't exaggerating, but expressing exactly how that little "lesson" made me feel, and how upset I would have been had my children been in that class....and how sad it made me that people can be so thoughtless.

I have nothing to thank a soldier for, never will - and can't think of a goddamn thing I have to thank the government for.

but, it's all good. Christabell won't ever get it because she seems to think that because she claims native ancestry that what she says doesn't matter.

It matters. It hurts. And I'm out.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

CLOUDY

Fuck the noble Red Man.

My Cherokee ancestors came to Florida to kill Seminole and Creek, and take their land. They were successful. This is usually how Indians interacted with each other. Many Indians were delighted to abandon the forests for farms and comfortable homes, and regarded their acorn eating cousins as assclowns.

I think I mentioned my Harvard educated great grandfather was recruited by the Indians at Vinita, Indian Territory to establish a school there in the 1890s. I think Vinita was Will Rogers hood. Point being the Red Devils in Vinita wanted quality schools NOT Boy Scout woodlore camps.

For those who dont know, it was the Indian who invented the middle finger sign. It was the one they used for almost every occasion.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Teachers dont teach facts because they know none. Theyre ideology pimps.

 

[cloudy]

CLOUDY

Fuck the noble Red Man.

My Cherokee ancestors came to Florida to kill Seminole and Creek, and take their land. They were successful. This is usually how Indians interacted with each other. Many Indians were delighted to abandon the forests for farms and comfortable homes, and regarded their acorn eating cousins as assclowns.

I think I mentioned my Harvard educated great grandfather was recruited by the Indians at Vinita, Indian Territory to establish a school there in the 1890s. I think Vinita was Will Rogers hood. Point being the Red Devils in Vinita wanted quality schools NOT Boy Scout woodlore camps.

Please show me where I said a damn thing about "noble red man." Quit putting words in folk's mouths, you shit, and you might not have near as much to bitch and moan about.

I'm human. My mother is human, her mother was human, and her mother before her. We are Choctaw, and we are human, with all it's blessings and foibles, and I don't think you'll ever find a post from me that says any different, you fucktard.

 

[Recidiva]

Please show me where I said a damn thing about "noble red man." Quit putting words in folk's mouths, you shit, and you might not have near as much to bitch and moan about.

I'm human. My mother is human, her mother was human, and her mother before her. We are Choctaw, and we are human, with all it's blessings and foibles, and I don't think you'll ever find a post from me that says any different, you fucktard.

I don't think he has a choice about the bitching and moaning.

If he were forced to observe something pleasant, honest or true, I think his brain would melt out his ears trying to explain how it's vile, horrid and self serving...somehow.

 

[Guest]

I don't think he has a choice about the bitching and moaning.

If he were forced to observe something pleasant, honest or true, I think his brain would melt out his ears trying to explain how it's vile, horrid and self serving...somehow.

Agreed.

If you have only shit for brains, it's quite easy for the good stuff to melt away.

 

[Recidiva]

Agreed.

If you have only shit for brains, it's quite easy for the good stuff to melt away.

It's not really his fault. If anyone touches any part of his brain, there's a startle reflex.

"LIFE SUCKS, YOU SUCK, I SUCK, EVERYONE SUCKS!"

He's occasionally right. Life does suck. I do suck. He does suck. Everyone does suck.

It's not the whole truth.

It's a bit like barging into someone's home and saying "HAH! Bathroom! I knew it! Your dirty little secret! You'd like to think that I didn't know you had one of these, don't you?"

Not really. It's better than the alternative, which is to fling shit everywhere and consider it the natural state of things.

 

[Guest]

It's not really his fault. If anyone touches any part of his brain, there's a startle reflex.

"LIFE SUCKS, YOU SUCK, I SUCK, EVERYONE SUCKS!"

He's occasionally right. Life does suck. I do suck. He does suck. Everyone does suck.

It's not the whole truth.

It's a bit like barging into someone's home and saying "HAH! Bathroom! I knew it! Your dirty little secret! You'd like to think that I didn't know you had one of these, don't you?"

Not really. It's better than the alternative, which is to fling shit everywhere and consider it the natural state of things.

You give him too much credit, I think.

I see him more as a monkey constantly flinging poo at everyone and everything.

 

[Recidiva]

You give him too much credit, I think.

I see him more as a monkey constantly flinging poo at everyone and everything.

He's the one in a cage, hands covered in shit and unable to take a shower.

I'm not sure it's credit so much as sympathy for being trapped in that state.

 

[Maeve_redux]

OK, I'm not reading ANYWHERE past the first page here, but...

As somebody who has actually met this teacher, and has spoken to several of her students - and volunteered to demonstrate in her classroom a time or two - I can honestly say that this is not typical of her. Normally she does not use this type of shock value or pro-military propaganda, and honestly tries to present both sides of a story.

What I can tell you is that when she did this, she had hit a breaking point. She was sick and tired of putting her efforts into something she believed in without getting a response from her students. This was an exercise used to shock her students into paying attention. It worked. Now those students tend to pay attention in her class, and most have gained an actual interest in learning.

 

[Recidiva]

OK, I'm not reading ANYWHERE past the first page here, but...

As somebody who has actually met this teacher, and has spoken to several of her students - and volunteered to demonstrate in her classroom a time or two - I can honestly say that this is not typical of her. Normally she does not use this type of shock value or pro-military propaganda, and honestly tries to present both sides of a story.

What I can tell you is that when she did this, she had hit a breaking point. She was sick and tired of putting her efforts into something she believed in without getting a response from her students. This was an exercise used to shock her students into paying attention. It worked. Now those students tend to pay attention in her class, and most have gained an actual interest in learning.

Okay. Let's see how she takes to being shocked into paying attention by getting fired.

I think that's pure bullshit justification.

She should have just broken and let someone less burned out take over.

 

[cloudy]

Okay. Let's see how she takes to being shocked into paying attention by getting fired.

I think that's pure bullshit justification.

She should have just broken and let someone less burned out take over.

I agree. No matter how she felt about her job, about her students, whatever, she wasn't teaching facts about history...not even close.

 

[Recidiva]

I agree. No matter how she felt about her job, about her students, whatever, she wasn't teaching facts about history...not even close.

And if someone is trying to teach my kid a "life skills" course and teaches them how to run credit card scams instead of balance their check book, I don't care if it "got them interested."

Fuck off.

 

[Maeve_redux]

Diva: The students themselves, after the class had continued and their interest did not diminish, lauded her for shocking them out of their stupor. Granted, it wasn't the way any of US would have done it, but it worked. And, all things considered, one day's worth of shock value to wake up a student for the rest of his or her life could well be worth it, IMO.

Cloudy: You're right. She didn't teach history that day. But she taught a hell of a lot of it for the rest of the year. What she taught sunk in and stayed there. What she did on that one day - again, not something any of us would do - opened her students' minds to the history she DID teach for the rest of the year.


I never said anything about agreeing with exactly what she did, or how she did it. There are plenty of other ways she could have gotten that same shock value with less of a pro-military stance and more of a truly historical context. However, she has been painted as a rather close-minded and shallow person in this thread for having done this exercise. She is neither. She is a very intelligent person that wanted to make a difference. How she chose to do that - using veterans and lack of desks - was probably not the best way to do it, but it worked.

What it seems that none of you realise is that she does mildly regret having used that exact method. I worked with her and volunteered in her classroom after this happened. She and I spoke about it a bit, and she did express her regrets for having used the veterans as an example, and she taught those students that the government and the military structure within the government have screwed up many, many times. Like I said, she tries to teach both sides.

 

[Recidiva]

Diva: The students themselves, after the class had continued and their interest did not diminish, lauded her for shocking them out of their stupor. Granted, it wasn't the way any of US would have done it, but it worked. And, all things considered, one day's worth of shock value to wake up a student for the rest of his or her life could well be worth it, IMO.

Cloudy: You're right. She didn't teach history that day. But she taught a hell of a lot of it for the rest of the year. What she taught sunk in and stayed there. What she did on that one day - again, not something any of us would do - opened her students' minds to the history she DID teach for the rest of the year.


I never said anything about agreeing with exactly what she did, or how she did it. There are plenty of other ways she could have gotten that same shock value with less of a pro-military stance and more of a truly historical context. However, she has been painted as a rather close-minded and shallow person in this thread for having done this exercise. She is neither. She is a very intelligent person that wanted to make a difference. How she chose to do that - using veterans and lack of desks - was probably not the best way to do it, but it worked.

What it seems that none of you realise is that she does mildly regret having used that exact method. I worked with her and volunteered in her classroom after this happened. She and I spoke about it a bit, and she did express her regrets for having used the veterans as an example, and she taught those students that the government and the military structure within the government have screwed up many, many times. Like I said, she tries to teach both sides.

Her students wanted a good grade. With her in charge of the class still, what are they going to say? And also - successfully brainwashing someone that you are responsible to teach - not something to be proud of.

I'm glad she regrets it, that gives me hope. If she keeps her job, do so with this caution: "You made a mistake, you learned from it, please don't do it again. Take your rights as a teacher seriously and not for granted."

People are famous for being dramatic and dumb all the time. Try not to stoop to conquer.

 

[cloudy]

Diva: The students themselves, after the class had continued and their interest did not diminish, lauded her for shocking them out of their stupor. Granted, it wasn't the way any of US would have done it, but it worked. And, all things considered, one day's worth of shock value to wake up a student for the rest of his or her life could well be worth it, IMO.

Cloudy: You're right. She didn't teach history that day. But she taught a hell of a lot of it for the rest of the year. What she taught sunk in and stayed there. What she did on that one day - again, not something any of us would do - opened her students' minds to the history she DID teach for the rest of the year.


I never said anything about agreeing with exactly what she did, or how she did it. There are plenty of other ways she could have gotten that same shock value with less of a pro-military stance and more of a truly historical context. However, she has been painted as a rather close-minded and shallow person in this thread for having done this exercise. She is neither. She is a very intelligent person that wanted to make a difference. How she chose to do that - using veterans and lack of desks - was probably not the best way to do it, but it worked.

What it seems that none of you realise is that she does mildly regret having used that exact method. I worked with her and volunteered in her classroom after this happened. She and I spoke about it a bit, and she did express her regrets for having used the veterans as an example, and she taught those students that the government and the military structure within the government have screwed up many, many times. Like I said, she tries to teach both sides.

You might want to read 3113's example on the second page, where Natives come take the desks instead of soldiers. At least the history would be correct, and I wouldn't be left puking after reading "since you read this in English, thank a soldier."

Here's a small rant I posted in an email to a friend about this very subject:

Sure, okay.....thank you, soldiers, for giving us smallpox infected blankets, for driving us on a cross country trek in the middle of winter where a third of us died, for taking our children away from us, and beating them if they cried for their homes, for forbidding them to speak their own language to the point where it's damn near extinct....thank you for stealing our land, destroying our food supply, and cutting off the hand we held out in friendship. Thank you for raping our women and making saddle ornaments out of their genitals, for herding us onto reservations, and for laughing at us when we actually trusted what you told us, for taking the fastest route to extermination, and attacking camps filled only with the elderly and children.

Thank you for making us live without running water, heat for our homes, or beds to sleep in, even today. Thank you for letting us live in gov't housing that has dirt floors, and no electricity, and then denying us loans to build a house on reservation land, since you cant steal that from us anymore.

Thank you for making so many of us dependent on commodity food, for introducing us to alcohol, for disrupting our health so that our leading cause of death is diabetes - a disease unknown in the Americas until the white men came, for driving our infant mortality rate up so that it's worse than most third world countries, for seeing to it that our life expectancy is only in the middle 50's.

And most of all, thank you for the whole Blood Quantum requirement, so that soon there will be no more Natives to worry about these things.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

CLOUDY

Cherokee are the best.

Who told you Choctaw are human? They lied to you.