America's place in word health care

[thebullet]

Last week I posted an article that showed that in the last decade over 900,000 Americans died because they didn't have access to readily available health care technology. They didn't have access because they were poor.

I've read on this forum that America has the best healthcare in the world; all the other countries' healthcare systems are socialist; and yadda yadda yadda. I thought it would be appropriate to see how America stacks up against all of those socialist systems in health care delivery.

How about infant mortality rates? Here are the current statistics for infant mortality rates per 1000 live births by country in descending sequence:
Infant Mortality /
100 Live births
Sweden 2.8
Japan 3.3
Finland 3.6
Norway 3.7
Czech Republic 4
Germany 4.2
France 4.3
Switzerland 4.4
Spain 4.5
Denmark 4.6
Austria 4.7
Canada 4.8
Australia 4.8
Portugal 5.1
United Kingdom 5.2
Ireland 5.5
Greece 5.6
New Zealand 6
Italy 6.1
United States 6.6
That makes the good ol' USA 20th in the world in infant mortality.

How about life expectancy?
Japan 81
Australia 80.3
Sweden 80.3
Switzerland 80.3
Canada 80
Italy 79.5
Spain 79.4
France 79.4
Israel 79.2
Norway 79.2
Austria 78.9
Greece 78.9
New Zealand 78.5
Germany 78.5
United Kingdom 78.3
Finland 78.2
Cyprus 77.5
Denmark 77.4
United States 77.4
We moved all the way up to 19th in the world in life expectancy.

The real question is what makes a good health care system? Is it more important that the health care system be free market so that the marketplace will determine the cost and efficacy of the service provided? Or is it more important to judge a health care system on the results of the service delivered to the general population?

American doctors and pharmacutecal companies may be the highest paid in the world. But they are delivering 3rd world health care to the people.

Which is more important?

 

[Guest]

Last week I posted an article that showed that in the last decade over 900,000 Americans died because they didn't have access to readily available health care technology. They didn't have access because they were poor.

I've read on this forum that America has the best healthcare in the world; all the other countries' healthcare systems are socialist; and yadda yadda yadda. I thought it would be appropriate to see how America stacks up against all of those socialist systems in health care delivery. . .

The real question is what makes a good health care system? Is it more important that the health care system be free market so that the marketplace will determine the cost and efficacy of the service provided? Or is it more important to judge a health care system on the results of the service delivered to the general population?

American doctors and pharmacutecal companies may be the highest paid in the world. But they are delivering 3rd world health care to the people.

Which is more important?

Are you attempting a serious discussion in this thread?

It seems to me you're just trying to anger some folks.

 

[SummerMorning]

No, actually it's 1st world health care. Only very expensive.

And the list is not comprehensive. We've only got 4.5 inf mortality, but we're not on the list.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Re: Re: America's place in word health care

Are you attempting a serious discussion in this thread?

It seems to me you're just trying to anger some folks.

Merry X-mas Sarahh

 

[thebullet]

Sweetsubsarahh:

Yes I am attempting a serious thread, not trying to piss people off. The state of health care in various western nations has been a starting off point for some posters to prove that those nations are in some way less 'free' than the USA. I'm curious to see if those that have argued this point will continue to cling to it when it is apparent that those 'less free' nations appear to have a better health delivery system, at least in terms of statistical results.

SummerMorning said:
No, actually it's 1st world health care. Only very expensive.

And the list is not comprehensive. We've only got 4.5 inf mortality, but we're not on the list.

Sorry, SM if I was inaccurate. I retrieved my statistics from InfoPlease.com - an almanac style website and the source was the US Census Bureau. What country do you live in?

Whoops! My bad. I see that the list was for 'selected countries'. I don't know who they excluded from the list. That makes the US's position even worse, then, doesn't it?

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: America's place in word health care

Merry X-mas Sarahh

I've been missing you, Colly -

Merry Christmas to you!

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Re: Re: Re: Re: America's place in word health care

I've been missing you, Colly -

Merry Christmas to you!

Been home, on a cruise and at my brothers. Back home now witht he family. I'll be back in NY at 6the start of the year and online more.

Merry Christmas to you and yours

*HUGS*

 

[Guest]

Sweetsubsarahh:

Yes I am attempting a serious thread, not trying to piss people off. The state of health care in various western nations has been a starting off point for some posters to prove that those nations are in some way less 'free' than the USA. I'm curious to see if those that have argued this point will continue to cling to it when it is apparent that those 'less free' nations appear to have a better health delivery system, at least in terms of statistical results.

I haven't been involved in any of those previous discussions, but I think your phrasing of:

I've read on this forum that America has the best healthcare in the world; all the other countries' healthcare systems are socialist; and yadda yadda yadda. I thought it would be appropriate to see how America stacks up against all of those socialist systems in health care delivery.

shows your anger quite well.

I do know that statistics are often misleading, especially when incomplete.

Post a link, please.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America's place in word health care

Been home, on a cruise and at my brothers. Back home now witht he family. I'll be back in NY at 6the start of the year and online more.

Merry Christmas to you and yours

*HUGS*

HUGS you right back!

Oooh, a cruise? And do we have a lovely girl on girl shipboard romance story coming out soon? *Yum!*

Good to hear from you -

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America's place in word health care

HUGS you right back!

Oooh, a cruise? And do we have a lovely girl on girl shipboard romance story coming out soon? *Yum!*

Good to hear from you -

Probably a girl on girl tourist/dive instructor. had some of the most beautiful dives. Drift dive in Cozumel, shore dive in Grand Cayman, current dives in costa maya

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America's place in word health care

Probably a girl on girl tourist/dive instructor. had some of the most beautiful dives. Drift dive in Cozumel, shore dive in Grand Cayman, current dives in costa maya

I shouldn't say it, but - No muff diving?

(So sorry!)

The diving does sound wonderful - so happy you had a terrific time!

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America's place in word health care

I shouldn't say it, but - No muff diving?

(So sorry!)

The diving does sound wonderful - so happy you had a terrific time!

Muff diving is the only kind I enjoy without a regulator

*HUGS*

 

[Liar]

How about life expectancy?
Japan 81
Australia 80.3
Sweden 80.3
Switzerland 80.3
Canada 80
Italy 79.5
Spain 79.4
France 79.4
Israel 79.2
Norway 79.2
Austria 78.9
Greece 78.9
New Zealand 78.5
Germany 78.5
United Kingdom 78.3
Finland 78.2
Cyprus 77.5
Denmark 77.4
United States 77.4
We moved all the way up to 19th in the world in life expectancy.

The health habits of the people is probably a bigger factor than the state of the health care. I know my neighbors well, and both Finland and Denmark have had a better and more efficient healthcare than Sweden the last fifteen years. Why do they have a lower life expectancy? Booze mainly. Fins drink Vodka like lemonade, and Danes have beer in their veins. Sweden used to have both, but the world's most restricted alcohol policies have turned that around.

High colestorol food, and consumption of tobacco and alcohol is probably a bigger villain here. Even the high per capita murder rate might be a factor, but I have no numbers to back that up. Might be too small in the big picture.

But they are delivering 3rd world health care to the people.

3rd world health care? A bit of an exaggeration there, wouldn'tja say? There are still a whole bunch of 1st world (I hate that labelling of countries btw) countries behind you.

#L

 

[thebullet]

Colly: Here is the link you requested:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html

Liar:
Your response (i.e. that the personal habits of the nations' people have a lot to do with these statistics) is an extremely valid one.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly: Here is the link you requested:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html

Liar:
Your response (i.e. that the personal habits of the nations' people have a lot to do with these statistics) is an extremely valid one.

Sarrah requested the link, Not I.

 

[Guest]

Sarrah requested the link, Not I.

Thank you for the link, bullet!

(Yes, I was the one who asked, right before I asked if Colly had been diving without a regulator!)

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Thank you for the link, bullet!

(Yes, I was the one who asked, right before I asked if Colly had been diving without a regulator!)

Sadly not on this trip. I ran into the Cruise bane. Everyone was overfed, newly wed or nearly dead

 

[Guest]

 

[thebullet]

Sorry ladies; And I'm not even drunk.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I think the statistics quoted are highly in question. Here's another site with some stats--the two have correlations and divergeances. Neither support the difficult notion that the US has the best health care in the world, nor do they support the merely inflammatory proposition that their health care is somehow "third world".

I think if we're anxious to discuss health care in a reasonable fashion, we need to stop using terms like that.

Furthermore, there's more than just infant deaths and age expectancies going on. If we're marking "health care" by living and dying statistics we should include "death rate" and other factors (not all of which put the United States behind countries already listed in other statistics).

 

[SummerMorning]

Sorry, SM if I was inaccurate. I retrieved my statistics from InfoPlease.com - an almanac style website and the source was the US Census Bureau. What country do you live in?

Whoops! My bad. I see that the list was for 'selected countries'. I don't know who they excluded from the list. That makes the US's position even worse, then, doesn't it?

Like you said - its not inaccurate, just for 'selected countries'. I suppose that just means developed countries that people actually know about

It doesn't necessarily make the US position worse. An interesting comparison was made in The New Scientist about a month ago: money spent per person health care per annum, doctors per person, life expectancy at birth. Oddly enough, Cuba which spends one tenth the amount of the US lags about half a year behind the states in life expectancy.

But I would definitely not say that the US has third world health care - that's for the likes of Mozambique with a life expectancy of 31 and a bit years.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Like you said - its not inaccurate, just for 'selected countries'. I suppose that just means developed countries that people actually know about

It doesn't necessarily make the US position worse. An interesting comparison was made in The New Scientist about a month ago: money spent per person health care per annum, doctors per person, life expectancy at birth. Oddly enough, Cuba which spends one tenth the amount of the US lags about half a year behind the states in life expectancy.

But I would definitely not say that the US has third world health care - that's for the likes of Mozambique with a life expectancy of 31 and a bit years.

Consider the source, his position and the axe he has to grind. Inflamatory rhetoric is par for the course.

Merry Christmas

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I have to admit these stats are stange. As a hands on healthcare professional in the US I've seen more foreigner;s come and have talked with personal friends that have suffered under the various systems.

I have a friend in England who had Uterine Cancer. Under the system set she wouldn't of seen a physician for 6 months at least. Thank God for pvt insurance, she saw one in a month. The CA was high grade and deadly and has been cured. IF she'd of waited 6 months it would of infected every node of her body and she'd be dead today.

True, America has a problem for covering the uninsured and least paid. We're working on that. But we do have government clinics that help those uninsured out. I've worked them. I know. We're not perfect. So please stop the America bashing.
This anti-american sentiment has made me sick. The only reason Europe has formed an EU is to compete against the states. Yet you still bash us. In healthcare, cost of living, politics, etc.

My patients are paying for the low cost of meds in your country. We pay double the cost of what you do. Maybe it's time America started charging you what our patients pay? Then let's see how you complain.

Go find another poll. Everyone in the world rates us bad. But it's funny how everyone wants to come here for healthcare, a chance for freedom or to find a job and send money home.

Take your attitude and stuff it. I'm sick and tired of seeing my COUNTRY insulted when we try to do our best. Find another poll to post. And when you do I suggest you learn the truth and stop being an antagonist.

 

[matriarch]

..........................I suggest you learn the truth and stop being an antagonist.

Strange, I was just going to say the self-same thing to you.

'End of comment and dialogue.'

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Then don't hold back Mat. Say what you like. I said my opinion on the matter. Sorry you don't agree.