American Revolution

[sweetnpetite]

Lucifer: I don't suppose you'd furnish me with some examples? I know almost nothing about this part of history; the only one I'm familiar with is American Samoa.

One thing that I hate about American history books (I had the great misfortune to read one whilst I was in Vanuatu) is the fact that WW2 started in 1941. Excuse me, World War 2 did not start in 1941. You might want to ask the Poles, the Germans, the Indians, the Australians, the Canadians, the French, the British and the Belgians what they were doing in 1939 if you're under that impression. World Wars do not start and finish with the USA's participation.

The Earl

Well, to fair, as a part of US History, or for the US- the WWII era started in 1841. But I never learned that the war started when we entered it. We learned that some felt that we should join the war, and others felt that we shouldn't and then with Pearl Harbor, we finally joined in the war effort. (and of course the war was one because the great United States joined in and rescued the rest of the world) We never learned about the forces who might have wanted to join the axis side or anything about american support for the nazis.

Honestly, if they taught us how varied and *real* and controversial history is- maybe there would be more interest. But it all seems so cartoonish the way they present it. It's all about dates, and people who are long dead who don't seem to have any motivation and who all act like the part of the group they are in. And of course it's all tought with the moral that we are the good guys and nothing good could really be accomplished without us. [freedom, space travel, science, defeat of the nazis, technology...]

 

[yui]

Just thinking about it - what do they teach American children in history? I mean, you've got the Revolution and the Civil War and WW1 and WW2. Everything newer is too recent and everything older is someone else's history.

Do you get taught English history?

The Earl

From the time I started school here through high school, I was taught English history in how it related to American Colonization. In college, part of the core requirement was Western Civilization. There, we learned about Greco/Roman influences, William the Conquer, Alexander the Great, the War of the Roses, Spanish Inquisition, the French Revolution, and all the high points of Western Civ.

Certainly, at my university, there were classes that specialized in different periods of history and in different civilizations, but typically, unless you were majoring or minoring in history, you weren't required to take those classes.

Regarding the American Revolution, we were taught that one of the truly awe inspiring things about that victory, is that the Revolution was won with only 1/3 of the population supporting the war effort. One-third were revolutionist, one-third were Tories, and one-third were uncommitted to either side.

During WW II, until the Japanese (oy!) bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941, the U.S. was still operating under the Monroe Doctrine, which in an oversimplification says, you stay on your side and we'll stay on ours. Obviously, in a mobile world society, isolationism doesn't work, but the U.S. was still trying to preserve that doctrine. If it makes you feel better, Earl, I wasn't taught that W.W. II started in 1941 - only that that was the end of American isolationism.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Ah, very different attitude in England. To us, anything that is newer than about 50 years old is too new for history. This isn't snobbishness, but more an idea that whilst events are too new, they cannot be studied with a dispassioned eye. The Earl

Well, I think with our country being so new- and basicly still in development, we pretty much have to study right up to ten years ago. I would guess that with countries who've been around for thousands (instead of a couple hundred) of years, there is probably more stability. However, were do you learn about 'recent developments' that are too far back to be called current events?

When I was in school in the 80's and 90's- the civil rights movement was certainly not50 years in the past- but it was a highly important part of our history. I would consider anyone who didn't know a bit about it to be very poorly educated.

 

[amicus]

Dear SNP...I would first off like to apologize for my absence and my failure to respond to your kind offer.

Your thread caught my interest and if I may just ramble forth for a bit...


Somewhere in the second or third year of college, I was presented with the word, Historiography. In graduate school, I chose Colonial American History as my thesis and became thoroughly embroilded and disillusioned with the study of history.

The reason being that history books of all kinds are written by individuals and those, 'historians', each offer a different point of view and a different motive for presenting the history of their times and events.

Your question about the American Revolution cannot be objectively answered, but becomes a subjective research project to include as many different viewpoints as one can consume.

Even recent events, such as the November General Election in the United States, is no exception, written from a 'left' or 'right' political viewpoint, you would not find an objective 'history' of that election.

In addition, the vast amount of people are unstudied in history other than introductory courses and after leaving formal schooling, pay little or no attention to history at all.

I have found it more meaningful to pursue an understanding of the 'history of ideas' such as the development of societal groups and customs, rather than the actual 'history' of a nation or a people.

Even as late as the time of the British Empire, only a tiny percentage of people could read or write, thus, 'understand' the events of their times or past history. Those who were educated were either landed gentry, royals or priests, each with an agenda to be expressed in their works.

The philosophical/political acknowledgment, the 'certain 'inalienable rights' were possessed by all humans as a matter of simply being human is the key ingredient to understanding the American Revolution.

But...that thought had been around since the time of Thales, long before the birth of Christ. As had many of the ideas concerning indivudual and human rights and gender equality.

The codification of those concepts could have happened in France or England or even in the low countries at any time and as one commentor noted, was partially expressed in not just one place, but many.

Ideas evolve in Darwinian fashion just as does humanity. What I found fascinating in my study of history was the biographies of the founding fathers; then following their reading lists, the statesmen, philosophers and political writers and histories they read.

The path backwards is sinuous and uncertain, but I found a true excitement in chasing the threads of just how 1776 finally arrived.

Sorry for the ramble, but after reading all the posts on this thread and seeing the usual suspects spout their usual line of propaganda, I thought to perhaps offer a way around the subject input if you truly are curious about the roots of the American revolution.

Regards....amicus...

 

[rgraham666]

If you want to read a good book on the events leading up to the American Revolution, I recommend The March of Folly by Barbara Tuchman.

It's a study of gross stupidity in history.

She uses Troy as the archetype. There were lots of warnings about the Trojan Horse. The Trojans bought in anyhow, and the rest is history.

The three main parts were the Renaissance Popes, the Revolutionary War, and the Vietnam War.

In each case, there were plenty of warnings, many people offering different strategies and solutions to the problems, and the people went right ahead and made the wrong decision anyway.

A good book.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

In 1941, Japan invited us to take part in the World War going on at the time. They did so by fucking with the wrong people. We promptly shuffled some cards and dealt a few hands of whoopass.

Apparently, there was a party going on in Europe at the time, and Germany was being the bitchy drunk guy and people were asking for help. So, we put on our boots and got our jacket and mosied over there. When we got there, we beat the drunk like Ike beat Tina... beat the stank out of him.

Then we fucked the prom queen. And the rest was history.

 

[TheEarl]

Even as late as the time of the British Empire, only a tiny percentage of people could read or write, thus, 'understand' the events of their times or past history. Those who were educated were either landed gentry, royals or priests, each with an agenda to be expressed in their works.

Godd post. Just out interest, when in the time of the British Empire did you mean? It lasted from about 1600 till 1946, which is not an inconsiderable amount of time.

Joe: Really hope you are being sarky, in which case lol.

The Earl

 

[sweetnpetite]

Your question about the American Revolution cannot be objectively answered, but becomes a subjective research project to include as many different viewpoints as one can consume.

...

Silly man I don't want an objective answer! I want the other side, the side I've never heard- the side I'm not likely to hear without I search for it.

As to history being many different oppinions and viewpoints- again, that's what I like about it. I'd prefer it being taought that way as opposed the way we learned it in school- static and dead. Things happend this way. the end. these poeple were right and these were wrong.

I'd rather history were taught so that both sides were shown- not speculated, but shown threw there eyes. Rather than tell us about the slaves and the Indians and the Germans and the Jews, why not let them tell us themselves? Why not learn to think? Rather than learn to be taught what to think? I had one class in college were we had to write a critical thinking paper. I don't recall much elsewere of being taught critical thinking. No we were just tought the information the facts as if they happend just that way and there was no question about them. That is rarely true.

History of ideas. I don't think that does much good without history of the things that happened- the actual impact of those ideas.

 

[sweetnpetite]

In 1941, Japan invited us to take part in the World War going on at the time. They did so by fucking with the wrong people. We promptly shuffled some cards and dealt a few hands of whoopass.

Apparently, there was a party going on in Europe at the time, and Germany was being the bitchy drunk guy and people were asking for help. So, we put on our boots and got our jacket and mosied over there. When we got there, we beat the drunk like Ike beat Tina... beat the stank out of him.

Then we fucked the prom queen. And the rest was history.

Oh, I get it now.

Could you explain quantum physics

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Bah, quantum phyisics is just something sci-fi geeks made up so they don't feel so bad about not getting laid. It's all fake. Like wrestling, Tolkein's genius, and the stuff they show in The Craft.

 

[stingray61]

I always love how the Brits forget about all the Yank flyers that were over there helping them out BEFORE Japan attacked the U.S.

I may be wrong but I think the definition of a World War is when ALL the major powers at the time are involved and not just a couple of them.

Yes the Untied States should have become involved earlier, and with more troops. Yes there are all sorts of reasons why we didn't, from the U.S. claiming it didn't concern us, to the power elite in America actually supporting the Germans.

A great deal of people on both sides died for a great many reasons not all of which were good reasons. Didn't it all work out ok in the end though?

I can't speak for others but at the school I went to we did learn that WWII didn't really start in 1941. We also learned that the U.S. should have been involved earlier. I also learned that the main difference between the British Empire and the Nazis is that the Nazis wanted to kill anyone that wasn't a part of the master race, while the Empire Mostly wanted to control the world, or at least a large portion of it, and were not at that time into genocide.

 

[stingray61]

Bah, quantum phyisics is just something sci-fi geeks made up so they don't feel so bad about not getting laid. It's all fake. Like wrestling, Tolkein's genius, and the stuff they show in The Craft.

ROFLMAO. Please don't get Joe started on string theory.

 

[TheEarl]

I always love how the Brits forget about all the Yank flyers that were over there helping them out BEFORE Japan attacked the U.S.

And I always love how the Americans forget that without the British, they never would've learned about the plan that Germany was putting together with Mexico to sneak in German troops to assist a Mexican backed invasion of California. And I always love how the Americans forget that it was British intelligence who cracked the German U-boat codes, allowing them more control of the Atlantic.

But let's not get into a dick-comparing contest shall we?

I may be wrong but I think the definition of a World War is when ALL the major powers at the time are involved and not just a couple of them.

AFAIK: The definition of a World War is when it involves combatants from more than three continents. Poland, Australia, German N.Africa, India. Four continents in 1939.

The Earl

 

[TheEarl]

Bah, quantum phyisics is just something sci-fi geeks made up so they don't feel so bad about not getting laid. It's all fake. Like wrestling, Tolkein's genius, and the stuff they show in The Craft.

LOL! Next up, Joe's guide to politics.

The Earl

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Politics is why we're the dominant species in the universe--that's right, universe. We toured the whole universe in a rocket in the sixties and found thousands of other species of intelligent life, they all sucked. Every other planet was like finger-painting day at the Special Kids Center.

We know, here on Earth, that men must be governed--and we're damn good at it. Politics is why we cured smallpox. It's why Julie Andrews can sing. Politics is responsible for most of your happiness and ability to refrain from peeing your pants when you see foxy women--when's the last time you did that? What? You don't do that? That's because of politics. Booya, grandma.

You know who doesn't like politics? All those "special kids center" aliens and the few "special kids center" human beings we still have here. But we'll breed them out...

...we'll use our politics.

edited to add: And Democracy will win the Politics Cup 500 Nascar Race in fifteen years and the Anarchists will cry and beg for their mama's while we do Democracy keg stands and tag hot ass.

 

[stingray61]

And I always love how the Americans forget that without the British, they never would've learned about the plan that Germany was putting together with Mexico to sneak in German troops to assist a Mexican backed invasion of California. And I always love how the Americans forget that it was British intelligence who cracked the German U-boat codes, allowing them more control of the Atlantic.


But let's not get into a dick-comparing contest shall we?


OK, how about a teeth-comparing contest LOL.


AFAIK: The definition of a World War is when it involves combatants from more than three continents. Poland, Australia, German N.Africa, India. Four continents in 1939.

Actually it's when there are combatants from several countries, not continents, so we were both wrong mate. Though I still say unless it involves combatants from all the major populated continents is when it should be called a world war but that's just being anal on my part

The Earl

Germanys plan with the Mexicans is still working or haven't you been reading the papers lately.

 

[TheEarl]

Germanys plan with the Mexicans is still working or haven't you been reading the papers lately.

Just trying to compose a mental list of the countries that started the war in 1939, so far have come up with:

Britain
France
Spain
Belgium
Netherlands
Denmark
Germany
Austria
Norway
Sweden
Poland
Czechoslovakia
Turkey
Hungary
Yugoslavia
Serbia
Italy
German N.Africa
Abyssinia
British East Africa
India
China
Japan
Australia
New Zealand
Fiji
Canada

Any that I've missed? Finland (on the side of the Axis technically, but realistically just opportunists), Russia, USA, Phillipines, Samoa and Vanuatu all joined in later. IIRC, no country from S.America ever joined the war.

The Earl

 

[cantdog]

And the Irish stayed the hell out of it.

 

[R. Richard]

I've been thinking about the American Revolution- despite all of the noble things we've been tought about it, I'm starting to question those motives. Especially in light of having read "Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl" and then reading the Declaration of independence. Never before had I noticed such an emphasis on the monitary reasons for independence- those first stated are mainly about taxes and other things that seem to indicate that the desire for freedom was mainly the desire for the freedom to occumulate great wealth. It seems obvious that the *ideals* of freedom stated were for their own purpose and gain, and not universal as they seem to imply.

With the almost singular exception of Nathan Hale, almost every major American figure in the American Revolution either owed big money directly to the English Crown or we financially tied to those who did owe big money. The American Revolution was a large debt cancelling party.

You also have to understand that many, many white colonists were "bond servants." A bond servant owed money, usually to the person who financed his/her journey to America and was, in effect the supposedly temporary slave of the person who howned the bond. A lot of bond servants disappeared over the next couple of ranges of hills and the next couple of rivers along with the boss' farming equipment.

Then again, the settlement of the Americas was based almost entirely on the greed of all involved. Most of those who did not come to the Americas due to greed came to avoid nasty encounters with the police in the old country.

If you really want to understand the history of the United States, you need to read "The History of the American Frontier" by J. Frank Dobie. Alas, the book is not only out of print, but almost impossible to find anywhere. [Hint: the book is not about cowboys, indians and shoot 'em up.]

 

[oggbashan]

Just trying to compose a mental list of the countries that started the war in 1939, so far have come up with...

Any that I've missed? Finland (on the side of the Axis technically, but realistically just opportunists), Russia, USA, Phillipines, Samoa and Vanuatu all joined in later. IIRC, no country from S.America ever joined the war.

The Earl

Sorry, Earl.

Brazil fought with the Allies and sent troops to fight in Italy. Didn't start in 1939 though.

British Colonies in S and Central America were part of the British war effort from 1939.

Og

 

[ozymandiask]

Russian view

It's an inconvenient fact that the second World war was a Russian / German war . Everything else was a pissant sideshow.

A couple of facts illustrate this .Russia lost 160 men for every American lost.

The Battle of Kursk in July 1943 involved more armour and men than every other battle in the war combined. The Soviet Union had sod all help from the West and won the war with the T34 tank and manpower . All very unpalatable to our western ears and eyes but factually correct.

 

[sweetnpetite]

With the almost singular exception of Nathan Hale, almost every major American figure in the American Revolution either owed big money directly to the English Crown or we financially tied to those who did owe big money. The American Revolution was a large debt cancelling party.

Thank you,

this was just exactly the type of thing I was interested in.

Give's me something new to investigate