America held hostage Part Deux

Le Jacquelope

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Rush Limbaugh once declared "America Held Hostage" when Clinton entered office as President of the US.

But what he doesn't realize is we're being held hostage yet again. This time, by corporations.

Corporations are defined as entities that maximize shareholder return on investment.

What that means in great unwashed speak is they serve to maximize profits and minimize overhead costs.

That having been established, corporations inherently are hindered from doing their best when:

a) they're required to provide a safe workplace for their employees
b) the employees are paid any wages
c) there are taxes involved
d) they're required to prevent environmental problems of any sort, or to clean up any that they create
e) they provide health care benefits


What this means is:

In the United States of America, we have (in addition to taxes) a tradition of increasingly strict laws against industrial pollution, child labor, unsafe workplaces, unlivable wages (minimum wage laws), sweatshop environments, and other things that have been achieved and held onto since as far back as the turn of the 20th century.


Corporations now are outsourcing their work overseas. Where are they going? To China, Singapore, and other nations where:

a) prisoner labor and child labor is legal or even encouraged
b) workplaces are relatively grossly unsafe, even deadly at times (see: Dow in Bhopal, India)
c) wages are rock bottom
d) industrial pollution is uncontrolled (16 of the world's 20 most polluted cities are in outsource-friendly China, for instance)
e) factory laborers are routinely not paid for their hours worked

But this is also a problem that has manifested domestically. When employers hire illegal immigrants, they're:

a) not paying them even a minimum wage
b) providing neglected and thus unsafe working conditions
plus taking taxes out of their paychecks even though they make too little to pay taxes


The corporate strategy with immigrants and foreign outsourcing is simple. It is to create more competition for jobs so as to put downward pressure on wages (a corporate overhead cost).

Scenario A: Without illegal immigrants or outsourcing - 10,000 people compete for 20,000 jobs

Scenario B: With illegal immigrants and outsourcing - 10,000,000 people compete for what is now 50,000 jobs (a highly generous figure for the jobs that are supposedly created by this)


Corporations have propagandists acting both in Government and in the political op ed sections of the printed page.

Here's how that goes.

You always hear conservatives saying one thing. Spot the pattern.
1) Drop the minimum wage or you'll lose jobs overseas.
2) Do away with OSHA and "draconian" workplace safety laws or your jobs will go overseas.
3) Environmental protection laws force jobs to go overseas.
4) 40 hour-limit Overtime laws push jobs overseas.

What is the core of each of these arguments?
Give up all of the labor rights that previous generations fought and died for, or we'll take your jobs overseas.

They're not saying this to your face, but they're doing it.


Your right to a week off once a year, or your jobs. Choose one.
[color=dark red]Your safe drinking water or your jobs.[/color] Choose one.
Your breathable air or your jobs. Choose one.
Your right not to have children or prisoners used in factory labor. Choose one!

And the ultimate insult: Corporations believe "Rights are irrelevant. There are only priviledges that you trade in exchange for jobs."


EVERYTHING that corporations do and EVERYTHING that right wingers argue is consistent with these patterns. This is not to say that there is some kind of Dr. Evil scheming conspiracy at work; corporations, shareholders, and the politicians that they control, are all part of a logical mechanism that has no need for conspiracies. But it is still dangerous because it shows an increasing disregard for the American way of life and for the freedoms our predecessors fought and died for.


How can you do something about it? For starters, establish black lists of companies not to buy products from, and stick to it.

Wal Mart is a good first example.

Second, you could print this out, or write it in your own words, and put out flyers for others to read and see exactly why it is that their jobs are going to hell in a handbasket. PLUS you can also encourage them to develop their own blacklists.

Get enough people to act and the Government will finally start to listen.
 
LovingTongue said:
Obviously you do.

Wait'll Owera, Sensual Male, Don K and REDWAVE see it... they'll have a LOT to add. :D

Sorry--didn't see it until just now and right now I've got a really bad sinus and throat infection, courtesy of some mysterious illness that I picked up in Oregon and for which antibiotics don't seem to be working :( When I find something that works and my brain is functioning better I'll return to this.

As for REDWAVE, his computer has gone to its death.
 
Owera said:
Sorry--didn't see it until just now and right now I've got a really bad sinus and throat infection, courtesy of some mysterious illness that I picked up in Oregon and for which antibiotics don't seem to be working :( When I find something that works and my brain is functioning better I'll return to this.

As for REDWAVE, his computer has gone to its death.
Holy smokes. I hope you're ok and soon. :rose:

Get well.
 
LovingTongue said:
Holy smokes. I hope you're ok and soon. :rose:

Get well.

Thanks. It's sort of mysterious--went to Portland, OR, and got what seemed to be a cold. Couldn't shake the thing. Then it infected my throat, and then my sinuses. Went to the doctor only to find that the antibiotics she gave me didn't do anything at all, so now I'm biding time until her office opens today to see if she can find something that will work. Seriously though, if she tries something else today and it doesn't work I'm going to have to go to the hospital and have my tonsils removed. They're already bleeding :eek:

Sigh.... I didn't like Portland :( On the good side of things, I have never heard of anyone having an untreatable case of sinus/throat infection. So eventually something has to work. I'll be damned if something this stupid is going to do me in :D

As for Redwave, I feel sorry for him right now. First his freedom of speech was violated, and then he was thrown in jail even though he didn't do anything wrong (don't worry--he's out now). And on top of that his computer crapped out, and he's in the middle of trying to organize an anti-war demonstration. As far as I know he won't be back at Lit. until he gets another computer.
 
Jeez, O, ya think it's a conspiracy? :D

*hugs*

If you have to go to the hospital then by all means git! I don't want some nasty bug taking you out and reducing your IQ down to Ishmael's level. :eek:

I'll say a prayer for you and REDWAVE, for sure.
 
LovingTongue said:
Jeez, O, ya think it's a conspiracy? :D

*hugs*

If you have to go to the hospital then by all means git! I don't want some nasty bug taking you out and reducing your IQ down to Ishmael's level. :eek:

I'll say a prayer for you and REDWAVE, for sure.

Don't pray for Redwave unless it makes you feel better to do so; he's an atheist :)
 
Damn those corporations for paying me and giving me stock and cash bonuses every quarter. Damn them for giving me 4 paid weeks off a year. Damn them all to hell! Damn my CEO for taking a pay cut when the economy got tough but still increasing stock bonuses to the employees. I'm a hostage I tell you! Damn them for allowing me to purchase my food, my cars, my house, my clothes..damn them for giving me health insurance. Die Die die!!
 
Worm said:
Damn those corporations for paying me and giving me stock and cash bonuses every quarter. Damn them for giving me 4 paid weeks off a year. Damn them all to hell! Damn my CEO for taking a pay cut when the economy got tough but still increasing stock bonuses to the employees. I'm a hostage I tell you! Damn them for allowing me to purchase my food, my cars, my house, my clothes..damn them for giving me health insurance. Die Die die!!
Most industrialized countries have more vacation time off per year for the average worker than in the US. 4 weeks is generous as fuck.

Most CEOs don't take a pay cut when times are tough.

I doubt all of what you say is true but if it is, you live in an anomalous bubble.

I call bullshit. What company is this?
 
LovingTongue said:
bump for Owera... hey how's REDWAVE's comp doing? :D

It's still dead. I think it'll be a while before we see him around here again.
 
Owera said:
As for Redwave, I feel sorry for him right now. First his freedom of speech was violated, and then he was thrown in jail even though he didn't do anything wrong (don't worry--he's out now). And on top of that his computer crapped out, and he's in the middle of trying to organize an anti-war demonstration. As far as I know he won't be back at Lit. until he gets another computer.

LMGDAO at that worthless sack of shit REDWAVE. I hope someone stabbed him in the back of his skull with a jailhouse shank and then fucked the asshole of his dead corpse...

What kind of a dipshit is a grown man and can't manage to get a new computer? HAHA You can get a new one for what? $500?

I forgot, most likely he's one of the bums you see on the strip in Vegas pushing a grocery cart full of junk. I'll bet you can give him a nickle and he'll spout off some useless bullshit about Communism.
 
Last edited:
Lovin Tongue said:
LMGDAO at that worthless sack of shit REDWAVE. I hope someone stabbed him in the back of his skull with a jailhouse shank and then fucked the asshole of his dead corpse...

What kind of a dipshit is a grown man and can't manage to get a new computer? HAHA You can get a new one for what? $500?

I forgot, most likely he's one of the bums you see on the strip in Vegas pushing a grocery cart full of junk. I'll bet you can give him a nickle and he'll spout off some useless bullshit about Communism.

I'll be sure to let him know that you wish him well :kiss:
 
Lovin Tongue said:
You do that cunt. Tell Steve I hope he gets hit by a fucking bus....

Yes, yes. I'll send him all your hugs and kisses. Don't worry, NoCojones. I won't forget to tell him how much you love him :D
 
LovingTongue said:
Obviously you do.

Wait'll Owera, Sensual Male, Don K and REDWAVE see it... they'll have a LOT to add. :D
Damn, Now I have to read it all over again, and carefully this time :D
 
Hey SM... you know this weekend I had a little chat with my coworkers at a picnic when they were talking about the bbq'd chicken we were making.

"Were these things handled by filthy mexican workers?" was the gist of the conversation.

I said "I sure hope they weren't made by unscrupulous farms with poor workplace and food safety standards." I had to quote love2teaseu and point out that good work don't come cheap and cheap work don't come good. :D
 
I'm feeling much better now, so I'll respond to your thread.

LovingTongue said:
Rush Limbaugh once declared "America Held Hostage" when Clinton entered office as President of the US.

But what he doesn't realize is we're being held hostage yet again. This time, by corporations.
I think he realizes it, but doesn't care because he's on the receiving end of the deal.
Corporations are defined as entities that maximize shareholder return on investment.

What that means in great unwashed speak is they serve to maximize profits and minimize overhead costs.

That having been established, corporations inherently are hindered from doing their best when:

a) they're required to provide a safe workplace for their employees
b) the employees are paid any wages
c) there are taxes involved
d) they're required to prevent environmental problems of any sort, or to clean up any that they create
e) they provide health care benefits

Agreed.

What this means is:

In the United States of America, we have (in addition to taxes) a tradition of increasingly strict laws against industrial pollution, child labor, unsafe workplaces, unlivable wages (minimum wage laws), sweatshop environments, and other things that have been achieved and held onto since as far back as the turn of the 20th century.

Hmm... but don't overlook the Bush administration's attempts at minimizing environmental and pollution laws. It's done quite a bit to help out corporations (and thus members of the administration) by either A) failing to enforce pollution standards/ environmental protection, or B) outright changing the laws in favor of corporations or just plain violating the laws and lying about it.

Other than that, I agree that corporations would love to be exempt from the things you listed.

Corporations now are outsourcing their work overseas. Where are they going? To China, Singapore, and other nations where:

a) prisoner labor and child labor is legal or even encouraged
b) workplaces are relatively grossly unsafe, even deadly at times (see: Dow in Bhopal, India)
c) wages are rock bottom
d) industrial pollution is uncontrolled (16 of the world's 20 most polluted cities are in outsource-friendly China, for instance)
e) factory laborers are routinely not paid for their hours worked

Agreed. This global capitalism at it's "finest" (from the perspective of corporations, that is). The corporations will shift work to wherever they must pay the least in order to earn a profit--regardless of what it does to the workers.

But this is also a problem that has manifested domestically. When employers hire illegal immigrants, they're:

a) not paying them even a minimum wage
b) providing neglected and thus unsafe working conditions
plus taking taxes out of their paychecks even though they make too little to pay taxes

I agree that the problem is evident here in the U.S. But you're missing part of the way in which it manifests itself. Namely, job loss. Whenever corporations outsource their jobs it means that the people here in the U.S. lose their jobs. At the present I would say this is a problem with more severe effects for Americans than the hiring of illegal migrants. What I mean by this:
1. While illegal migrants workers are hired to perform jobs in the U.S. the vast majority of the jobs they do would not be otherwise filled. For example, if farmers and produce corporations actually bother to recruit workers legally (with H-2A visas) they must (by law) advertise those job positions locally with no success of finding applicants before they can bring in workers from other countries. Recently I've been talking with a farmer who hires his workers through the H2A process, and I've seen the ads in the local paper. When I asked some of the people living near him about those jobs they said there was no way they would do them because "it's too much work for what you earn." And the farmer is paying minimum wage to the people. Realistically, migrants (whether legal or illegal) are not taking away jobs from Americans because Americans aren't willing to do most of the jobs migrants fill. However, outsourcing is making a deep, direct impact on Americans because it results in them getting laid off.

But getting back to your points. I agree that people who hire illegal migrants here exploit them--even if they're paying them minimum wage and providing them with a reasonably safe working environment (which doesn't happen too often) because minimum wage (or less) just isn't worth the amount of repetitive, demanding labor and its toll on people's health that migrants experience here. At least, it's not worth it for Americans to perform the same jobs. Some migrants find it worth while, but only because they are desperate, and often they suffer from bouts of depression and sadness (at least, that is what agricultural workers have expressed to me).

The corporate strategy with immigrants and foreign outsourcing is simple. It is to create more competition for jobs so as to put downward pressure on wages (a corporate overhead cost).
This is true, especially when corporations outsource jobs to other countries. However, I'm not so sure that hiring of illegal migrants (or even legal ones at minimum wage) in the U.S. creates job competition for Americans. It does, however, pit migrants from different countries against each other within the U.S. An example: I first started talking with migrant agricultural workers (primarily Mexican) in 1997. At that point many Haitians were starting to come here to do agricultural work. The Mexican workers expressed concern about the Haitian workers because they said Haitians would work for much less than Mexicans would. They were absolutely astounded at the wages Haitians were willing to work for. Keep in mind that Mexican migrant workers don't earn much--so this emphasizes just how little the Haitians were getting paid. Anyway, the Mexican workers were not very happy about the Haitians, and saw them as a threat to their survival. Unfortunately, many of them began to hate the Haitians because of it.

Scenario A: Without illegal immigrants or outsourcing - 10,000 people compete for 20,000 jobs

Scenario B: With illegal immigrants and outsourcing - 10,000,000 people compete for what is now 50,000 jobs (a highly generous figure for the jobs that are supposedly created by this)

Again, I would say that outsourcing creates serious job competition for Americans, but importation of illegal workers does not. Most of the jobs illegal works take are not the jobs that Americans want to fill. There is the possibility, however, that if no illegal workers came here and Americans continued to decline those types of jobs the produce companies, meat packing industries, janitorial services etc. would become quite desperate for workers and would have to raise the pay and create better working conditions in order to attract American workers. But realistically I don't see that ever happening.

Corporations have propagandists acting both in Government and in the political op ed sections of the printed page.

Here's how that goes.

You always hear conservatives saying one thing. Spot the pattern.
1) Drop the minimum wage or you'll lose jobs overseas.
2) Do away with OSHA and "draconian" workplace safety laws or your jobs will go overseas.
3) Environmental protection laws force jobs to go overseas.
4) 40 hour-limit Overtime laws push jobs overseas.

What is the core of each of these arguments?
Give up all of the labor rights that previous generations fought and died for, or we'll take your jobs overseas.

They're not saying this to your face, but they're doing it.


This is a very good point, and I suspect that even if Americans gave up everything you listed in a desperate move to hang on to their jobs the corporations would outsource anyway because there are always people elsewhere who will work for less. This is the problem with capitalism gone global: the whole world is opened up for exploitation. So all a corporation has to do is pick and choose among the most desperate populations in the world and move its jobs there. The world is the oyster of corporations, and poor/seriously disadvantaged populations are its pearl.

There is also something else happening here: In addition to sending the message that Americans need to work for less in order to keep their jobs (which is a lie anyway, since the jobs will at some point be deported to an even more exploitable population right after the corporations are done wringing all they can out of American workers) there is the more prominent (but false) message that American workers should blame foreign workers for this situation. It's misplaced blame, clearly, but that is the attitude often expressed by the media. For example, I remember hearing a few news reports about how the people in India are "stealing U.S. jobs". Obviously it's not the people in India who are stealing jobs from us--rather it's the corporations taking our jobs away in order to make a greater profit. This kind of false blame makes it easier for corporations to come off looking better than they are: Distract the workers by channeling their anger and frustration at other workers instead of at the source of the problem. This same thing happens with Mexican migrant workers even though they're not stealing our jobs. Again, the idea is to direct frustration and anger towards other groups in order to shift the blame anywhere except where it belongs. Thus, corporations (and therefore the U.S. elite and politicians) use the media to foster xenophobia and racism while trying to make themselves look better.

Your right to a week off once a year, or your jobs. Choose one.
[color=dark red]Your safe drinking water or your jobs.[/color] Choose one.
Your breathable air or your jobs. Choose one.
Your right not to have children or prisoners used in factory labor. Choose one!

And the ultimate insult: Corporations believe "Rights are irrelevant. There are only priviledges that you trade in exchange for jobs."

EVERYTHING that corporations do and EVERYTHING that right wingers argue is consistent with these patterns. This is not to say that there is some kind of Dr. Evil scheming conspiracy at work; corporations, shareholders, and the politicians that they control, are all part of a logical mechanism that has no need for conspiracies. But it is still dangerous because it shows an increasing disregard for the American way of life and for the freedoms our predecessors fought and died for.

It's not so much a disregard for the American way of life as it is a disregard for life in general. Remember, capitalism has gone global. This means that corporations don't give a shit about Americans, but neither do they give a shit about the rest of the world. They are looking for as much profit as they can make and the entire world (with only a few exceptions) is open to them for that pursuit. In short, corporations are predatory; in order to fight the problem successfully it must be fought on a global scale--not just on a national level.

How can you do something about it? For starters, establish black lists of companies not to buy products from, and stick to it.

Wal Mart is a good first example.

Second, you could print this out, or write it in your own words, and put out flyers for others to read and see exactly why it is that their jobs are going to hell in a handbasket. PLUS you can also encourage them to develop their own blacklists.

Get enough people to act and the Government will finally start to listen.

I think these are good suggestions, but it has to go beyond the boundaries of the U.S., otherwise the corporations will just move elsewhere. They won't feel any pressure to change unless they have problems maintaining a large pool of labor anywhere in the world. Until that happens, they can always go elsewhere to get what they want. I will concede, however, that the U.S. can play a much more effective role in reducing the horrors of global capitalism if it so chooses. I say this because the U.S. is a highly capitalistic country, and one in which many large corporations originate from. The task at hand is to get the U.S.A (one of the greatest contributors to global capitalism) to create global initiatives/new global institutions to protect workers and create more checks for corporations. For example, create a law that prohibits corporations from exporting jobs when the exportation of jobs is not necessary to the survival of X corporation. Another example: create an international workers' union so that no matter where corporations go to find a pool of labor they will have to pay a certain wage and provide certain working conditions, fair job contracts, etc. That way one place is no better for corporations than any other, and workers everywhere will be treated decently.

Whichever way we go about it, it has to be an international effort, and it requires large groups of people working together. Americans do have a disproportionate influence in global capitalism, therefore anything we do regarding our corporations (if they can be said to be "ours") will have a significant impact not just upon us but also the rest of the world. The trick is getting our government--a gov't composed of people with personal vested interest in corporations (and therefore people with a severe conflict of interest between corporate profit and government duty)--to create some sort of rules that would make it harder for companies to export jobs. And for those who do export, we need to work together to create an international workers' union and some international guidelines regarding pay, working environments and environmental impact.

I'll wrap this up with a quote:
Individual choice alone... cannot supply the social bonds necessary to sustain a stable and meaningful life *(Giddens and Hutton 2000: 217).

Take that as you may :D

* Giddens, Anthony and Will Hutton, eds. 2000 Fighting Back. In
Global Capitalism. New York: The New Press.
 
Lovin Tongue said:
Good response to your own questions, LT.

If you're referring to my post you couldn't be more mistaken. I'm not LT and LT is certainly not me. I think it's time for you to go troll elsewhere, Assmeal.
 
Ya know, I lost my job at Waffle House to immigrants. I was perfectly willing to work there for a buck a day. Wussupwitdat?
 
Re: Re: America held hostage Part Deux

Hey O, glad to see you're feeling better! :rose:

That was an absolutely brilliant post, especially your explanation of the situation of immigrant labor, but I have a few things I wanted to address... "a law that prohibits corporations from exporting jobs when the exportation of jobs is not necessary to the survival of X corporation" is dangerous, IMHO because anything can be arbitrarily declared "necessary". I see no necessity at all for these companies to go overseas to produce products made for Americans.

As for immigrants the only way to ensure their safety is to crack down hard on employers for paying them sub minimum wages and presenting them with dangerous work environments.

As for getting our governments to respond? Blah... when was the last time you saw a politician that did what the people wanted? We have to find ways to disrupt the system legally. Boycotts fueled by information campaigns, can do a LOT of damage, I think.
 
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