Am I really the only person who finds

[AngelaSaxon]

Am I really the only person who finds all capacity to enjoy a story disappears the moment I get to the bit where someone writes the central female character as thinking:

"Ohmygod I'm being betrayed by my body, I'm getting wet against my will/when my ideas of my own sexuality say I shouldn't, am I a slut who wants to be dominated, who wants to obey this person growling manly instructions at me? I do! I am! I'm joyfully subservient and obedient!" etc...

I'd mention a particular story but in all honesty it feels like hundreds, and not in the BDSM section...

I know some women write broadly similar things, but I feel like the massive misinterpretation of the meaning of a vagina lubricating has to be a manifestation of something guys think or pretend to believe, surely?

I don't know, maybe it's a convenient short-hand in erotic writing, like implicitly pretending people don't have teeth whenever writing a blowjob scene.

But it feels closer to the ones that aren't just convenient for writing but convenient for fitting into particular... views.

Like some guy read that some women orgasm while being raped and ever since that's been a shorthand for whatever they wish - she loves being treated that way/discovers she's a sub, or proving a woman is a 'slut' (a creature more fictional than a futa) - and of course the orgasm forced upon a woman is always the most mind-blowing and sexuality-changing of her life. (Comparison with the actual experience of women who have had this happen would distinctly suggest otherwise but comparison would also be in bad taste. Like comparing superheroes getting powers from radiation to the actual experiences of people living around Hiroshima at the end of WW2...)

Anyway, like I say I didn't want to name a particular story for including that initial paragraph, but...am I the only one who is wrenched out of a story every time that paragraph appears?

 

[zach20092]

I'd agree I am yet to meet a woman in real life who has enjoyed being forced against her will.. I did read somewhere that the lubrication is possible a defense mechanism of the body to avoid her getting more hurt from the forced intercourse! Aside from that I dont know enough to comment.. there is definitely a 'mainstream ' point and erotica narrative that many naively believe..

 

[AngelaSaxon]

One doesn't have to be raped to lubricate not because of arousal but because the body reacts to insertion to make things less uncomfortable -:ask any woman whose partner has tried fucking before she's sufficiently aroused to count as 'wet' -- that this is surprising information to anyone makes me wonder if guys here have, how shall I put it, much of a social history with half of the human race?

Like guys who write as if fucking a lot or fucking big penises makes your vagina 'loose' or 'worn out', a weird understanding of female sexual biology partly wrong and partly the actual opposite of the truth - and again a mythology that seems not just error, but error connected to particular ideologies about women and sex?

(Also, maybe there should be mandatory high school sex-ed classes in which someone makes sure to point out: "Guys, when thinking of the bodies of women, really of anyone, you should always remember - something can still count as a hole, even if you can't stick your dick in it.")

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Literally the next story I read just now, because it appeared in the 'random stories' section of the NC/R page, was 'No, Ricky!' by xPinkxStarsx.

After a family friend ties our protagonist to a bed to assault her it's a few short paragraphs before:

"His tongue flicked against my clit and his fingers ran deep into my pussy. My body was starting to defy me and my pussy got wet. 'What the hell is going on?' I thought to myself, 'How can I be enjoying this?' I was though, no one had ever taken me like this and it felt so good."

Couple of paragraphs later:

"His dick filled me up completely and it just felt so good to be filled like that. "Ricky, fuck me harder!""

And a couple after that, this is how the story ends:

"I turned to him and told him "Next time, your cumming in my mouth." I could see his smile even in the dark."

I can't be the only one suspecting that nine out of ten of the women writing these stories... aren't? But whatever.

I don't know, I like absurd narratives and I'm not being censorious about the boundaries of acceptable fantasy, but it's so often exactly the same absurd narrative, over and over, where women are just instantly malleable in these very specific ways, over and over...

 

[TheRedChamber]

I get your point completely.

Remember however that the peculiar rules that Lit has regarding the nonconsent stories where only stories where the victim ends up enjoying the encounter can be published. There are more subtle ways to achieve this, but it does kind of push a lot of writers towards using 'wetness' as a clear sign that they are meeting this rule. (which has been discussed a lot on the forums.)

 

[Breastobsessed84]

I'd prefer my rape stories violent and terrifying. But hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[YourMomThinksIAmCute]

I mean, we're writing short stories here, emphasis on 'short'. The 'body betrayed me' trope prevents reluctance/corruption stories from taking *forever* to get to the sexy bits. And that doesn't even cover the fact that there is something sexy about someone being so aroused physically that it overrides their rational mind and even their emotional mind and they just turn into rutting animals. Sure, it's not classy or whatever, but it's not meant to be.

Also, shame-kink is a thing. That is literally a person becoming aroused despite every indication that they shouldn't be.

****Edit to add****
But I am just a horny male, so I am totally willing to admit my views may be/are skewed.

 

[Poeticwolf]

I think what most stories that include this dynamic are missing is a believable psychology to support such an act. You have to see the steps in her head to have that kind of outcome. And frankly, most have no idea what goes on inside a woman's head. Her impulses, what drives her interests, why she is this way. Too many focus on just the sex and not the reasons that lead up to it. Foreplay is more about gestures and making her feel good throughout the day, not just pinching her nipples and slapping her ass and thinking she is ready to be fucked. Just my thoughts.

 

[StillStunned]

I've written a story where it's the man whose "body betrays him" in an unexpected situation. I like to think I describe his frame of mind properly to make it work, though.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

I'm convinced it's possible to be published in that section without turning all women into people who secretly yearn to be dominated AT ALL, and without turning all the guys into men smugly knowing this essential truth about what we'll become if they fuck us in the correct manly fashion lol - neither the crude physical-response-converts-us version or the subtle psychology of bringing out these supposed desires.

Women who aren't remotely like that exist, a lot, pretty sure we're the vast majority since this version of being a woman is less real than furries - and I demand our representation in horny tales of sexual opportunism!

I will die on this hill, if only because I got so sick of reaching that point where she does a 180 and having to stop reading, and then I got sick of skipping ahead not very far looking for that moment before even starting and yep there it is, often with the exact same words, over and over...

I agree that the rule as people understand it is one of the factors at work in making the NC/R section so filled with bad BDSM cliches, but it's far from the only one.

That rule makes sense to stop a flood of grotesquely violent stories. I just don't think avoiding these cliches requires levels of brutality any higher than exists in these stories already.

Remember George Tasker? The rule existed when he wrote his truly absurd NC stories and no-one was finding their vagina lubricating a path to joyful subservience in those...I think...

 

[Gamblnluck]

All too often you see in a story a man gets an erection and it is automatically assumes he is enjoying the treatment he is receiving or what he sees. The same with a woman lubricating at inopportune moments. Why authors continue to use that I have no idea, but NO you are not the only one to see that and be bothered by it a bit.

I see it often in LW stories where the woman is caught by her husband having sex. His penis erects and she says he loves it. Then of course the author has the man say, "Gee, I guess I do approve of this my wife and this bastard humiliating me by making me a cuckold. Guess I need to suck his cock now." or some other dumbass thing.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I'm convinced it's possible to be published in that section without turning all women into people who secretly yearn to be dominated AT ALL, and without turning all the guys into men smugly knowing this essential truth about what we'll become if they fuck us in the correct manly fashion lol - neither the crude physical-response-converts-us version or the subtle psychology of bringing out these supposed desires.

I'm sorry, maybe I missed the part of the discussion where that was already pointed out (I'm currently on my feet for a solid 39 hours)... but that's LITERALLY the rule for this site! If you want to write a rape story, as per Lit's rules, the victim HAS to find enjoyment in it. So, where is the cofusion coming from?

 

[YourMomThinksIAmCute]

As a writer, I agree that writing outside a genre's common tropes is fun and interesting. And as a reader, such stories always feels like a breath of fresh air, not only because it is different, but because it forces depth to the story and characters that is often lost/neglected when leaning on tropes as a shortcut. But those are exceptions that prove the rule.

Gamblnluck,
That is a fantastic comparison to illustrate the problem. I tend to avoid cuck stories, so I had not thought of it in that way.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

I'm sorry, maybe I missed the part of the discussion where that was already pointed out (I'm currently on my feet for a solid 39 hours)... but that's LITERALLY the rule for this site! If you want to write a rape story, as per Lit's rules, the victim HAS to find enjoyment in it. So, where is the cofusion coming from?

'Some degree of experience of pleasure at some point' is way way broader than the incredibly specific things being repeated over and over (even overlooking how many quite popular stories here by quite prominent writers DON'T actually follow that rule).

 

[WCSGarland]

I'm convinced it's possible to be published in that section without turning all women into people who secretly yearn to be dominated AT ALL, and without turning all the guys into men smugly knowing this essential truth about what we'll become if they fuck us in the correct manly fashion lol - neither the crude physical-response-converts-us version or the subtle psychology of bringing out these supposed desires.

I've been trying to write stories in NC/R that do not follow that trope. I think that category may have a lot of readers that for some reason like that trope though.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

I've been trying to write stories in NC/R that do not follow that trope. I think that category may have a lot of readers that for some reason like that trope though.

I agree. Though the general rule for porn and erotica is that they often tend to be dominated by content that a minority like a lot and a majority will tolerate...

Separately,, I hope we all agree that in the real world no-one should ever believe a vagina lubricating is proof of enjoyment or arousal - it's perfectly possible, even common, to lubricate as a response to sexual activity that isn't remotely enjoyable or arousing. Maybe not WAP levels usually, but nonetheless.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

I mean, we're writing short stories here, emphasis on 'short'. The 'body betrayed me' trope prevents reluctance/corruption stories from taking *forever* to get to the sexy bits. And that doesn't even cover the fact that there is something sexy about someone being so aroused physically that it overrides their rational mind and even their emotional mind and they just turn into rutting animals. Sure, it's not classy or whatever, but it's not meant to be.

Also, shame-kink is a thing. That is literally a person becoming aroused despite every indication that they shouldn't be.

****Edit to add****
But I am just a horny male, so I am totally willing to admit my views may be/are skewed.

All of that is more-or-less true, at least as what's going on in some cases, and yes these can make for exciting stories if done well.

(Shame-kink is a thing as you say, and there's a whole spectrum of versions up to but probably not quite including out-and-out ENF, I guess...)

But still, to summarise, writing off the top of my head, women get wet without it signifying pleasure or arousal, women can orgasm from rape without it making them question even slightly their sexual identity in relation to domination, and the fact of a woman having an orgasm while being subjected to forced sexual activity doesn't tend to make her forget what is happening, be in favour of what is happening, think somehow it doesn't count as rape, or want to enter into a relationship with the guy.

These women - the vast majority of those who experience something which could be called pleasure in a NC situation - would fit the guidelines for the NC/R section but barely exist within it.

So while the guidelines play a role in making such a narrow version of NC-but-there's-pleasure almost de facto Institutionalised, I think there are other things at play as well and probably more.

All of our tastes in smut are historically constituted, all of our kinks are a product of changing social relations and change with the relations from which they emerge, whatever continuities exist over long periods.

Our tastes and kinks are historically constituted and so are the social norms we take for granted or want to be able to take for granted, and these two streams overlap and converge in people eroticising their anxieties, as you see in a lot of cuck stuff, or wanting to assert what I may as well call 'incel ideology'.

I'm trying to understand not just why I'm responding in a particular way, but why other people do, insofar as it is possible to grasp the underlying tendencies.

Also I do like getting off and if people aren't going to write closer to my own kinks then when I'm stuck online instead of IRL I'll be having less fun, and everyone should care about that.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Ok so this isn't exactly the same but the next story I read, again taken from the random stories section of the NC/R page just now, was this:

https://www.literotica.com/s/rider-in-the-rain?comments_after=734672

It's a bit ambiguous about what she really thinks I guess but can anyone even tell what leads to her starting acting like she's out of control overwhelmed by her desire and begging for it from this guy just calling her a bitch over and over?

The guy she just met touches her ankles and when she bites her lip "I know I have her" - and indeed from that moment she's up for whatever it seems and doing that thing guys often do in stories where they make the women say "finger fuck me" (in this case), being told you have to say it by a random guy and doing it, like you do, because you're so excited and thus subordinate... because he touched her ankles for what seemed like maybe a minute...

 

[AngelaSaxon]

I felt mildly bad for not using a specific example or two at the start of this thread, so I've adopted a simple system - just choose a story from the random stories section of the NC/R page, excluding stories that are parts of larger series, and see if, to what degree, in what ways it fits into the patterns I've tried to talk about or does something wholly or partly different. And repeat until exhausted.

 

[WCSGarland]

I could understand a victim afraid about further physical harm saying things that are demanded of her, even though she would not obviously say things like that normally, and it would make more sense if the writer portrayed the victim thinking the opposite of what she is saying.

 

[lovecraft68]

Blame the site for this. They have this crap rule that "women have to enjoy it in non consent." so these authors write this bullshit.

Lit in its 'we don't want rape stories' scam basically makes the situation worse. Rather than just allow a fictional non con story as a fantasy, they decided its so much better to perpetuate the no never means no message that way too many men already think exists. So its like they take fantasy rape and force reality into it and push abuse even harder.

But then again, they also say 'no rape' and the Mind Control category is 100% rape because no one being controlled by anything can give consent.

Whole things a joke, and don't get me started on what this site thinks falls under BDSM

 

[AngelaSaxon]

All of that is more-or-less true, at least as what's going on in some cases, and yes these can make for exciting stories if done well.

(Shame-kink is a thing as you say, and there's a whole spectrum of versions up to but probably not quite including out-and-out ENF, I guess...)

But still, to summarise, writing off the top of my head, women get wet without it signifying pleasure or arousal, women can orgasm from rape without it making them question even slightly their sexual identity in relation to domination, and the fact of a woman having an orgasm while being subjected to forced sexual activity doesn't tend to make her forget what is happening, be in favour of what is happening, think somehow it doesn't count as rape, or want to enter into a relationship with the guy.

These women - the vast majority of those who experience something which could be called pleasure in a NC situation - would fit the guidelines for the NC/R section but barely exist within it.

So while the guidelines play a role in making such a narrow version of NC-but-there's-pleasure almost de facto Institutionalised, I think there are other things at play as well and probably more.

All of our tastes in smut are historically constituted, all of our kinks are a product of changing social relations and change with the relations from which they emerge, whatever continuities exist over long periods.

Our tastes and kinks are historically constituted and so are the social norms we take for granted or want to be able to take for granted, and these two streams overlap and converge in people eroticising their anxieties, as you see in a lot of fuck stuff, or wanting to assert what I may as well call 'incel ideology'.

I'm trying to understand not just why I'm responding in a particular way, but why other people do, insofar as it is possible to grasp the underlying tendencies.

Also I do like getting off and if people aren't going to write closer to my own kinks then when I'm stuck online instead of IRL I'll be having less fun, and everyone should care about that.

damn autocorrect, that was supposed to be "cuck stuff" not "fuck stuff". I guess we know which word I use more...

 

[HBuff]

Yes, this is a trope indeed. It comes up far too often. Writing a female character as a male author is just as hard as writing a male character as a female writer. In general, I write rape scenes that often focus on the male protagonist and I'll portray the intensity of their act and why they are enjoying it to such a degree of elation, often riddled with more or less guilt. For the women's side, I read accounts of real-life victims to get a better understanding.

And there's also that silly rule here that requires that all the rape victims experience at least some degree of forced pleasure. This is the big reason I don't write here very often.

I had female readers who identified with female characters for a host of different reasons, so I would be quite misguided if I wrote that type of paragraph in the hope of increasing my story's pleasurability. The situation/predicament is a far more potent element of excitement in my she-readers. Just showing some pretty passengers on a merchant ship that surrenders to pirates will do a good job at making some readers wet, and the forced sex has yet to happen.

 

[MiaBabe23]

Bad writing takes me outta the moment period. Short cuts can occasionally work, but generally just feel cliched; and I don’t doubt I’ve done it myself at times
And thoroughly agree presenting the woman as just some vapid reaction to a guy’s control fantasy is tedious
But - if it’s well written, I think reluctance and power play can be very arousing. I admittedly enjoy that kink, and don’t feel ashamed of doing so because I think there can be a lotta fun complexities woven into it

 

[StillStunned]

Have any of you checked out Omenainen's Pink Orchid event? A challenge for writers to write women-centric erotica.

Here are last year's stories: https://www.literotica.com/s/pink-orchid-for-women-centric-erotica-2024-the-stories.
And here's the support thread for this year's event: https://forum.literotica.com/thread...tric-erotica-official-support-thread.1620323/