Almost, but not quite completely unlike a sub

CarrotandStick

Really Experienced
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Posts
105
So here's the confusion. I have recently entered my first D/s relationship. Yay, fun, and all that jazz.
Here's the catch. My girl, call her M for now, wants to be sub. We've discussed it and that's how she wants to be. She thinks. However, she also admits that she has a very strong and independent will. The result is that she's a good girl until push comes to shove at which point she backs out for whatever reason.

Thoughts?

P.S. I will be getting M to read this thread and possibly post, so advice for her as well as me would be appreciated.
 
CarrotandStick said:
So here's the confusion. I have recently entered my first D/s relationship. Yay, fun, and all that jazz.
Here's the catch. My girl, call her M for now, wants to be sub. We've discussed it and that's how she wants to be. She thinks. However, she also admits that she has a very strong and independent will. The result is that she's a good girl until push comes to shove at which point she backs out for whatever reason.

Thoughts?

P.S. I will be getting M to read this thread and possibly post, so advice for her as well as me would be appreciated.

What type of sub are you looking for? Is it ok with you if she's a little bit sammy? Is it ok if she doesn't just blindly do whatever you tell her to do? That she asks questions and talks to you about how she feels? IMO there is nothing wrong with having a strong and independent will.. I do..lol. Ask my Sir. Maybe she just needs to discuss some of the things you ask of her. I'm like that about some things. I may drag my feet at first, and I may want to discuss it to death. But, in the end I do what is asked of me. Maybe that is all she needs.
 
CarrotandStick said:
So here's the confusion. I have recently entered my first D/s relationship. Yay, fun, and all that jazz.
Here's the catch. My girl, call her M for now, wants to be sub. We've discussed it and that's how she wants to be. She thinks. However, she also admits that she has a very strong and independent will. The result is that she's a good girl until push comes to shove at which point she backs out for whatever reason.

Thoughts?

P.S. I will be getting M to read this thread and possibly post, so advice for her as well as me would be appreciated.

i'm not really sure what the question is. because she's very 'strong and independent will' means she can't be submissive? i am very strong willed, You can ask my Master, but i still submit to Him fully.....
 
A real example might be more helpful for us in answering your question.
 
it sounds to me, and correct me if im wrong here, that you dont know exactly what it is you are both interested in. as you can see from other posts, it is perfectly possible to be submissive with a strong will. you can add me to the list of stron independent subs, and A will certainly vouch for that if you ever asked him. some things id recomend (and while one of these ieas may be perfect for you another may not)

sitting down and talking about what your expectations are

filling out a bdsm checklist (just google "bdsm checklist", youll get several)

having her keep a journal with how she is feeling about things, this allows her a way to tell you how she feels if talking in person about such things is difficult for her

set up safewords!!! this way she can pull out of something safely if it truly is an issue
 
Safewords are one thing MIS but somehow I get the feeling that this isn't about play.

It sounds to me from the information provided that the problem may be with picking which role to be in.

Sometimes, when you walk into a room you can sense a very dominant personality when you see him/her. That dom/me who wears it like a glove, the relaxed, confident and in control manner in which they exist naturally.

Age and experience help with that kind of thing and the same goes for submission if I'm not incorrect in that respect. I don't fully understand the submissive side.

I'd suggest doing some Dom/sub roleplay even if it doesn't quite feel right. That way they can both feel out the roles and then compare notes after. It doesn't have to be S&M play or sexual either, just to adopt a mindset and act out a small scene. Like accepting a cup of tea from her as her Dom or something simple like that.

Just my own random thoughts. :)
 
I am going to lead this off with my standard sage advice: This lifestyle is a journey not a sprint. There is no destination, the beauty is in following the path.

With that being said, you are both new to the lifestyle and it takes time for your roles to develop. Training a submissive from 'nilla is not an easy thing. It takes a lot of time and dedication, as there are so many thought patterns that have to be altered. There is no "submissive/vanilla" switch on the back to flip, and instant obedient subbie. It takes time for you guys to build the trust in one another that you are going to fulfill those roles to each other. It also takes a lot of time and patience to train her. There are times when the heart is willing but the mind is blocking.

To use an example from my own experience with rose, it took me a long time to get her to call me Master. That was something that was a block to her. She WANTED to, but could not bring herself to do it. But with patience and repeated attempts she has gotten to the point where it is second nature. It took MONTHS for her to completely break through that, and that is only ONE small aspect of this lifestyle and our relationship.

If M is used to being an independent woman, it is going to take time and effort for her to break through that programming and for her to allow herself to be obedient. I recommend starting small and working towards the bigger things. I also recommend focusing on positive reinforcement. ie You had the dishes done when I got home from work, great job. Keep reinforcing those things that she does that are submissive. I also recommend as it develops you have to be consistent.

I wish you all the best of fortune in this relationship, and may it bring you the joy that mine has brought me. The thing to remember is that its a journey and a process...
 
CarrotandStick said:
So here's the confusion. I have recently entered my first D/s relationship. Yay, fun, and all that jazz.
Here's the catch. My girl, call her M for now, wants to be sub. We've discussed it and that's how she wants to be. She thinks. However, she also admits that she has a very strong and independent will. The result is that she's a good girl until push comes to shove at which point she backs out for whatever reason.

Thoughts?

P.S. I will be getting M to read this thread and possibly post, so advice for her as well as me would be appreciated.


I'm curious about the part where you say, "My girl wants to be sub." Is she saying she wants to submit to you, be your sub, or is she just at the point where she realizes that she's a submissive? See what I mean? I think there's a difference there, and I don't know if it's just how the statement is phrased that I'm wondering how to interpret it or not, but I thought I'd ask.

A few comments:

If she's is newly identifying herself as a submissive but not necessarily your submissive, then that's the direction your conversation should go. I wouldn't assume that just because you two are in a relationship, are involved in the BDSM lifestyle, and have realized where your desires fall (Dom vs. sub) that she has agreed to submit to you. I think that would be a mistake that will most likely lead to a lot of confusion, disappointments, and distress on both your parts. For example, I've been told before that I was topping from the bottom and use a form of punishment when we had never even had the discussion of my being his sub. I have had similar things happen with a few people, and I think it comes from a lack of communication and assumptions being made. This is just my opinion of course. ;)

Also, just because M has a strong, independent personality does not mean that she can't submit to you. D/s relationships look very, very different depending on the people involved and what they have decided works for them . My advice would be to read and learn as much as you can, talk to people, go to some munches, and then have an in-depth discussion with M about where you want to take your relationship. You said that she thinks she wants to be a sub, so it sounds like she has some learning and thinking to do about what she wants, too.

Anyway, I wish you both lots of luck on your relationship. Lit. is a great place to learn, and I've found that people are generally more than willing to explain and/or chat about things. Make friends, learn, and enjoy the journey. :)
 
Although I am a submissive ...... (well might be a Switch but that's another topic for other day!) I am a very strong-willed and independent girl. But I am more than willing to submit to someone IF he is the ONE for me.

At the moment, I am taking my time, exploring and discovering who I am, and what I like or doesn't like. Going to local munches etc.

I would advice for both of you to have an in-depth discussion about WHAT each of you want from the relationship, whether it is a vanilla or a D/s relationship.

I think I can only repeat what the others say, but the most important two things are:

1. Trust
2. Communication, communication!


Enjoy the journey! Lit is a great place to ask questions about any aspect of the BDSM lifestyle, when I first started out on my journey. Lit were an awesome site, and have helped me realise a few things about myself.

:rose:
 
I'm pretty much a Dominant personality. With the giant majority of people I meet. I've thought about it, I've flirted with it, but I've actually *enjoyed* being submissive with one person. There's always an exception.

How do you know if you're an exception with someone who's otherwise pretty much wired as another Dominant? (and I'm not saying she is, but IF she is I thought I could weigh in on the strong/independent etc. angle with a rather extreme example) I have no idea. Some people claim they need to be overpowered, which I guess works for them. I needed someone infinitely patient and not all that hung up on whether I obey him or not, till I felt OK about *liking* obeying on my own. Process time: about 8 years.

A lot of people would never be in a relationship that was that exploratory and low pressure - it's really a question of what works for you.
 
Last edited:
IMHO it takes strength to be a submissive. It is not always an easy path to walk, nor is it always as simplistic as some people expect or say it should be. From your brief post my reading between the lines (and that may be wrong as we have very little to go on and only from your perspective), I gather that what is causing you some level of problems or concern is that there are certain things she cannot react submissively to, some things she just may not be able to do, some things she herself wants to do but finds difficult. These things are all nartural, we are after all human beings with real feelings, past experiences, and fears. My suggestion would be not so much concentrating on how to make her do xyz, but talk together for as long as it takes to find out if there may be very real reason for her being blocked at times and thus backs out of whatever it is you are asking and expecting.

Being submissive does not magically make triggers disappear, and this is quite possibly what you are dealing with. For instance, I was more than over joyed to participate in bondage and restraint anytime, anywhere.....then all of a sudden it became a major trigger which resulted in severe panic attacks. It was nothing to do with him, it was we suspect a reaction to my father's suicide which had triggered the response in me. We are still 3 years later working to undo the problem with 3 steps forward, 4 back at times...it is a process which takes time, patience, and above all understanding and acceptance it is not a sign that person is not a good submissive. Talk, find out what is at the base of the issues more so than how to make her do it, and step forward together.

Catalina :catroar:
 
Betticus said:
Safewords are one thing MIS but somehow I get the feeling that this isn't about play.

your right, this doesnt look to tbe about play. originally i wasnt going to add that, but the OP mentioned M had been known to back out of things, so i threw it in there
 
CarrotandStick said:
So here's the confusion. I have recently entered my first D/s relationship. Yay, fun, and all that jazz.
Here's the catch. My girl, call her M for now, wants to be sub. We've discussed it and that's how she wants to be. She thinks. However, she also admits that she has a very strong and independent will. The result is that she's a good girl until push comes to shove at which point she backs out for whatever reason.

Thoughts?

P.S. I will be getting M to read this thread and possibly post, so advice for her as well as me would be appreciated.

You say this is your first D/s relationship, however, you don't mention if this is a result of an already established relationship turned D/s. From the sounds of what you are saying about M wanting to be a sub I take it the latter is the case. If this is true, this can help explain some of the reason for her backing out when pushed. It is very difficult to transform an existing "vanilla" relationship over to D/s, however it is not impossible (I know from experience).

Either way, it sounds like what is required is communication on what is causing her to want to back out. She needs to be able to be totally open with you without fear of being in trouble as long as there is a legitimate reason (i.e. an emotional trigger like Catalina mentioned in her post or something similar) for her backing out, not just that she doesn't want to do what she's told because she doesn't feel like it.

You also have to earn her trust. Trust is a huge deal in a D/s relationship. It took me time to develop the level of trust I needed in my husband for our journey to be on the right track. It is a long, slow process... not a race to the finish line. Be patient and you will get what you want.
 
Netzach said:
I'm pretty much a Dominant personality. With the giant majority of people I meet. I've thought about it, I've flirted with it, but I've actually *enjoyed* being submissive with one person. There's always an exception.

How do you know if you're an exception with someone who's otherwise pretty much wired as another Dominant? (and I'm not saying she is, but IF she is I thought I could weigh in on the strong/independent etc. angle with a rather extreme example) I have no idea. Some people claim they need to be overpowered, which I guess works for them. I needed someone infinitely patient and not all that hung up on whether I obey him or not, till I felt OK about *liking* obeying on my own. Process time: about 8 years.

A lot of people would never be in a relationship that was that exploratory and low pressure - it's really a question of what works for you.

That pretty much describes me, too, Netz. I could have never spent time as a submissive at all had I not still been allowed to make 95% of my own decisions. I just don't have it in me.

To the OP, there are many, many ways to be submissive. What you read in stories (or even on message boards) is not The One True Way, contrary to what the authors may want you to believe. ;) I spent way too much of my time as a sub trying to measure up to the standards of other people. I regret that because it wasn't what either person in the relationship really wanted. I took what I had for granted while I tried to keep up with the Joneses. Ironically, right when I started being able to accept myself for who I was, the relationship ended.

Maybe I'm rambling. I'm prone to that. :rolleyes:
 
Like a sub.

I have somethings things to add to all the good advice here:

I am extremely dominant where my personality is concerned, and my whole life I have taken thrill in being strong willed and rebelious, She can be strong willed and submissive in bed. Being submissive doesn't mean you are submissive all the time, or follow everyones orders, the joy for me comes in that I choose who and when I submit.

And are you talking about She wants to roleplay as your sub or does she want to BE your sub, like live in bathe you and fix you toast in the morning sub... Roleplaying can warm things up to a more farmiliar feeling which can lead to a deep desire to serve the one you love...

Maybe invest in a pair of leather cuffs or something... props can make a diffrence, Slap some cuffs on me and I FEEL it is real.

Best wishes in Kink!

Ps- watch bondage porn for tips and reffrence! *wink*
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the mass of responses! I realize that I may need to be more specific on a few points.
She brought up the idea in a random discussion when I mentioned that I had Dom tendencies but had never really had a chance to let them 'out on the leash'. She said that she had read about this, felt she liked it and wanted to be sub. I, naturally, said great! I do think she generally wants to be a sub all the time. She loves wearing her collar (she had one before I entered the picture), asks me what she should wear when we're going out together somewhere special and is instantly contrite and snuggly when I give her a "Bad M" look. She practically squealed when I asked her if a leash would interest her and she likes bruises on her wrists. I'm not one to set her to menial chores; just the concept that she's mine, she knows it and that she needs to be good for me is enough.
Anyway, we probably need to discuss exactly what falls under my purview to tell her what's what and what's not. There is one incident that comes to mind. We were walking back from the shops and discussing this stuff when M mentioned that I should probably be more assertive when I want her to do/not do something, actualyl punish her if she's bad rather than jsut chastise her, etc. I said I'd try. So when we get home (the middle of a park on a boiling day not being the time or place) I try again (holding the back of her collar so she had to stop and listen) and she complained that it was too hot!
What's a Dom to do? Maybe I need to stretch my sadistic muscles (I do have them, they just don't see much use). Maybe we need to just chat about what she wants from me in the Dom role. Maybe she's just that used to having a completely unfettered impulse reflex. I don't know. Further comments? And many, many thanks for all this advice, I'll put M onto this thread soon...
 
CarrotandStick said:
Thanks for the mass of responses! I realize that I may need to be more specific on a few points.
She brought up the idea in a random discussion when I mentioned that I had Dom tendencies but had never really had a chance to let them 'out on the leash'. She said that she had read about this, felt she liked it and wanted to be sub. I, naturally, said great! I do think she generally wants to be a sub all the time. She loves wearing her collar (she had one before I entered the picture), asks me what she should wear when we're going out together somewhere special and is instantly contrite and snuggly when I give her a "Bad M" look. She practically squealed when I asked her if a leash would interest her and she likes bruises on her wrists. I'm not one to set her to menial chores; just the concept that she's mine, she knows it and that she needs to be good for me is enough.
Anyway, we probably need to discuss exactly what falls under my purview to tell her what's what and what's not. There is one incident that comes to mind. We were walking back from the shops and discussing this stuff when M mentioned that I should probably be more assertive when I want her to do/not do something, actualyl punish her if she's bad rather than jsut chastise her, etc. I said I'd try. So when we get home (the middle of a park on a boiling day not being the time or place) I try again (holding the back of her collar so she had to stop and listen) and she complained that it was too hot!
What's a Dom to do? Maybe I need to stretch my sadistic muscles (I do have them, they just don't see much use). Maybe we need to just chat about what she wants from me in the Dom role. Maybe she's just that used to having a completely unfettered impulse reflex. I don't know. Further comments? And many, many thanks for all this advice, I'll put M onto this thread soon...

So this is an existing relationship that the two of you are turning D/s.

I totally get her response. It was reflex. Something she probably would've said before the D/s. In other words, old habits are hard to break, but again not impossible... it just takes time.

It is an excellent idea for the two of you to sit down and Talk to each other about what you both want. She needs to know what you expect from her just as much as you need to know what she expects from you. Another thing I would suggest is for you both to complete BDSM checklists then compare them. This gives you an idea of what areas you both want to explore and what areas you both want to stay away from, and where the gray areas are.

Don't put a whole lot of pressure on yourselves to get this "right" overnight, because that isn't going to happen. Take what works for the two of you and leave the rest, you can't go wrong that way. Best of luck to you both. :)
 
she may just have been "testing you". she said she wanted you to do something when she didnt listen, you said ok. then she didnt listen and you were at a loss of what to do. sounds to me like she was just seeing if you really were going to respond or not.
 
CarrotandStick said:
Thanks for the mass of responses! I realize that I may need to be more specific on a few points.
She brought up the idea in a random discussion when I mentioned that I had Dom tendencies but had never really had a chance to let them 'out on the leash'. She said that she had read about this, felt she liked it and wanted to be sub. I, naturally, said great! I do think she generally wants to be a sub all the time. She loves wearing her collar (she had one before I entered the picture), asks me what she should wear when we're going out together somewhere special and is instantly contrite and snuggly when I give her a "Bad M" look. She practically squealed when I asked her if a leash would interest her and she likes bruises on her wrists. I'm not one to set her to menial chores; just the concept that she's mine, she knows it and that she needs to be good for me is enough.
Anyway, we probably need to discuss exactly what falls under my purview to tell her what's what and what's not. There is one incident that comes to mind. We were walking back from the shops and discussing this stuff when M mentioned that I should probably be more assertive when I want her to do/not do something, actualyl punish her if she's bad rather than jsut chastise her, etc. I said I'd try. So when we get home (the middle of a park on a boiling day not being the time or place) I try again (holding the back of her collar so she had to stop and listen) and she complained that it was too hot!
What's a Dom to do? Maybe I need to stretch my sadistic muscles (I do have them, they just don't see much use). Maybe we need to just chat about what she wants from me in the Dom role. Maybe she's just that used to having a completely unfettered impulse reflex. I don't know. Further comments? And many, many thanks for all this advice, I'll put M onto this thread soon...

In these situations I remind him that I didn't ask for punishment to be part of the dynamic *he* did

If that is going to be her reaction she needs to have a sit down and think about what the relationship is founded on and if you can trust what she says if that is how she treats the situation as it comes up. Yep, a little meditation time on the subject of "walking the talk."

She wants you to punish her. You want, I'm assuming, the upper hand and control, not to be beholden to what she wants - she needs to know that she doesn't get to control what happens. The reaction is going to come up a lot, but when you can get someone to see that they don't actually want or need to act out like that, you really do have control, not when you are stuck in a routine of tracking and punishing actions.

That's my take on it, anyway.
 
Sounds to me like you're both fairly new to all of "this." I mean nothing negative by that, only that there are so many approaches possible that even with your clarification, it's hard to be very specific on how to proceed ... except:

Take your time. Learn everything you can, just the way you've started -- it's perfect. Try it all out, slowly and patiently ... even when it seems patience is wrong, so that you'll be safe with each other. Talk about it afterward. If you liked it, move ahead. If you didn't, try something else.

Rinse, lather, repeat.

Are you familiar with the distinctions many of us make between punishment, for example, and discipline, and play? If not, do a search on this site and go to the stickies where theyr'e explained with full range and detail.

You say she may want to be submissive "all the time." Now you're really opening the floodgates. The same questions above: to you? Do you want to be responsible for her ... all the time? If so, you can find lots of info here and on sites like "Submissive Loving," lots of good reads there ... and a number of terrific books on it all.

Just a quick note about her: your initial description of her sounds like exactly what I'd want ... strong, spirited, resourceful, but has the DESIRE to submit and then makes the DECISION to do it. There's the partner who is worth the effort to Me!! But this is another area where one size doesn't fit all.

I know, I'm repeating. But it's worth it to repeat as it's important.

Best wishes,
ST
 
Yet another clarification...

So one more fine-tune point; by 'all the time' I mean when she's around me...mostly. I do crop up in her thoughts when I'm not around (apparently XD) and so when I ask her to be good or to do something she won't forget the second I leave/hang up the phone. So, yeah, that kind of 'all the time'.
 
It sounds like y'all are just getting started. Things won't be perfect from the get go if ever. It might take some time to find your ways in the roles you both feel you want to take on. Don't expect it to come into perfect alliance overnight or ever. It you are both committed to it, things should smooth out somewhat in time. Rarely is anything worth having easy from the get go.
 
FurryFury said:
It sounds like y'all are just getting started. Things won't be perfect from the get go if ever. It might take some time to find your ways in the roles you both feel you want to take on. Don't expect it to come into perfect alliance overnight or ever. It you are both committed to it, things should smooth out somewhat in time. Rarely is anything worth having easy from the get go.

I couldn't agree more..
 
Back
Top