Alleged Climate Change

[Fuzzy1975]

99% of species that have lived here are extinct.

That we know of, it could be even more, Earth has changed so much that we may not even be the first "intelligent" society on Earth. The Tectonic plates have been recycled a couple times over, destroying just about all the "fossil records".

What makes us so fucking special???

Not people like you, that is for sure.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

You mean how smart and powerful we provably are. That's not even arrogance, its a statement of fact. The scary part is that we are so fucking destructive by accident that we've reshaped so many things. We have multiple examples of us altering the environment.

That 99% of all species things is both a guess and kinda bullshit either way. What makes us special is that unlike most animals we have strong effects on the local environments intentionally and unlike any species we are capable of it on a global level.

Really? Eat a box of Exlax and will yourself not to shit yourself. If we're so fucking smart, then why are there so many "here, hold my beer" tales? And the 99% thing comes from Neil deGrasse Tyson. I think he may know more about that shit than I do. And cows fart, so . . . .

 

[Sean Renaud]

Really? Eat a box of Exlax and will yourself not to shit yourself. If we're so fucking smart, then why are there so many "here, hold my beer" tales? And the 99% thing comes from Neil deGrasse Tyson. I think he may know more about that shit than I do. And cows fart, so . . . .

Lots of those 'hold my beer' tales work out just fine for that person. I know they have for me over the years. Either way that has no real connection to the conversation at hand. I highly doubt the 99% thing comes from Tyson. He's an astrophysicists professional. Not a biologist nor a paleontologist. I could probably give him a run in those fields as a lot of my spare time is thrown into those areas. I can say with 100% certainty that number is some combination of information he gathered one way or another from people who ARE experts in those fields and math equations that may or may not be accurate.

Given how fossilization takes place its highly probably that there are millions upon millions of animals that left no fossil record, have not been discovered as of yet or were mistaken for other species. If you discovered a Grey Wolf and a dire wolf skeleton you could easily be forgiven for thinking they were just similar species which they aren't particularly closely related to as far as Canids go we found out in the last few years due to DNA studies. You would similarly never assume that a St. Bernard and a Pitbull were the same species.

Essentially that number is at best an educated guess and at worse one of those cases of complicating something for the sole purpose of making us feel small. Neither of which has anything to do with Climate Change.

That we know of, it could be even more, Earth has changed so much that we may not even be the first "intelligent" society on Earth. The Tectonic plates have been recycled a couple times over, destroying just about all the "fossil records".

Not people like you, that is for sure.

We most likely are the first intelligent species on the planet depending on how exactly you want to define such a thing. The tectonic plates have not been recycled a couple of times over which is why it is so easy to track where everything was. They move at fairly predictable rates.

There is no real reason to believe they have destroyed any significant amount of fossils especially compared to other things in the world. That is not how tectonic drift functions. There are tons of fossils we have found that we would not have found otherwise because of them.

There is no way to know if the 99% is accurate one way or another and I suspect for the purposes we generally speak of the number is highballed by a fair mount.

 

[wizzard426]

mankind having impact on the environment.........................

 

[Fuzzy1975]

. The tectonic plates have not been recycled a couple of times over which is why it is so easy to track where everything was. They move at fairly predictable rates.

The Earth is approximately 4.5 Billion years old. The only area's of Earth that we can study are from the late Paleozoic era onwards. About 538.5 Million years ago. All our fossil records end at 538.5 Million years. We cannot see the other 4 Billion years of History.

While there are rocky area's that actually date from 4 Billion years ago ( still missing 500 million years, and Humans are less then 5 million years old), they are few and far between, the vast majority of the surface of Earth has undergone subduction many times.

This is a widely know fact of Geology. Which is why, when you look at the 4 Billion years of unknown history, an argument can be made that we are not the first intelligent civilisation to inhabit the Earth. I am not claiming there were other civilisations, just that we cannot rule that out, nor can we ever prove it one way or the other. The evidence is gone.

 

[jomar]

It’s it an irony that the op article link was from Hotair?

 

[Sean Renaud]

The Earth is approximately 4.5 Billion years old. The only area's of Earth that we can study are from the late Paleozoic era onwards. About 538.5 Million years ago. All our fossil records end at 538.5 Million years. We cannot see the other 4 Billion years of History.

While there are rocky area's that actually date from 4 Billion years ago ( still missing 500 million years, and Humans are less then 5 million years old), they are few and far between, the vast majority of the surface of Earth has undergone subduction many times.

This is a widely know fact of Geology. Which is why, when you look at the 4 Billion years of unknown history, an argument can be made that we are not the first intelligent civilisation to inhabit the Earth. I am not claiming there were other civilisations, just that we cannot rule that out, nor can we ever prove it one way or the other. The evidence is gone.

To the best of our knowledge life didn't start on Earth until 560 million years ago however. Given that we can absolutely date rocks as far back as 4 billion years its relatively safe to assume that there wasn't any or much life far enough back for that to be something that happened.

An argument can be made for anything. The fact that you are saying the evidence is gone is you claiming there were other civilizations. That is highly, highly unlikely. Not impossible mind you. Its not impossible that the first organisms on Earth were seeded by aliens, or arrived on an asteroid (Panspermia). Lots of things could have happened but until some evidences arises suggesting such a thing occured we should assume it did not.

Unless this prior civilization was in very specific areas the shifting plates wouldn't mean a damn thing anyway. There would still be signs of them. The buildings would be gone sure. But nature doesn't do straight lines very often. It doesn't often do symmetry. That's simply not how it works.

Either way a previous civilization does not by definition mean that 99% of all species went extinct and to no small degree species as well as all classifications somewhat artificial. If we killed every dog on earth, not every canid but every member of Canis Familiaris on the planet is that hundreds or however many breeds there are counted seperatly? As I stated above nobody is gonna claim that a St. Bernard and a Pitbull are the same species if you only had a skeleton (Even though fossils are not skeletons) to work with.

My point being that number is equal parts speculation and a math equation. No different than the Drake equation telling us how many Earth Like planets should be out there and according to the math its virtually impossible we are the only intelligent lifeforms to have existed in the universe. Of course since it take literal years for light to reach us from the nearest stars those beings being out there does no good with out warp speed, event horizon style bullshit. Worse even yet that star may have gone Super Nova before humans even evolved.

 

[wizzard426]

 

[Sean Renaud]

That's at least funny despite being inaccurate.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

To the best of our knowledge life didn't start on Earth until 560 million years ago however.

We don't know what occurred before 538.5 million years ago because there are no geologic records.

Given that we can absolutely date rocks as far back as 4 billion years its relatively safe to assume that there wasn't any or much life far enough back for that to be something that happened.

We have a small section of the Canadian shield on Hudson Bay which contain rocks that date 4 billion years old that's all.

The tectonic plates have not been recycled a couple of times over which is why it is so easy to track where everything was.

As I said, but you denied, most of the tectonic plates have been recycled several times. Post above. You are incorrect , and geology has already proved this, just like it proves the Earth is not flat.

That was my point. There are no records further back and there never will be. Anything else is speculation at best. But just like the possibility of life exists in the Universe, it may already have existed here.

 

[Sean Renaud]

We don't know what occurred before 538.5 million years ago because there are no geologic records.

We have a small section of the Canadian shield on Hudson Bay which contain rocks that date 4 billion years old that's all.



As I said, but you denied, most of the tectonic plates have been recycled several times. Post above. You are incorrect , and geology has already proved this, just like it proves the Earth is not flat.

That was my point. There are no records further back and there never will be. Anything else is speculation at best. But just like the possibility of life exists in the Universe, it may already have existed here.

LOL. Okay let me walk you through your own logic cus you're too clever by half. The rock in Canada can tell us its 4 billion years old give or take. So you have already stated we have geologic record that old. Like many things whatever the (est) thing out there is the only most people, even relatively knowledgable people can name. Like we all know the Mariana Trench is the deepest point on Earth. Without Google could you tell me what say the fifth lowest point is? What is third tallest mountain. ITs been literally twenty five years since I looked into this one but feel free to Google it I think that is Killamonjaro in Africa. What is the second tallest waterfall after Victoria Falls I believe? See my point? Its more than plausible that we have rocks that are 3.8 billion years old and nobody cares.

Geology has not proven the tectonic plates have been recycled nor does THAT prove the Earth is not flat. There are tons of things that do but not geology.

Its highly unlikely and pretending like it is is functionally no different than claiming the pyramids were built by aliens.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

LOL. Okay let me walk you through your own logic cus you're too clever by half. The rock in Canada can tell us its 4 billion years old give or take. So you have already stated we have geologic record that old.

Yes, we do, the rock we have found that is 4 Billion years old makes up less than 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% ( I really don't know the percentage, but it's minuscule) of the entire rock from the beginning of the time earth formed.

Also don't forget there is still another 500 million years prior of Earths existence, and we can't find rock that old. . What happened to it? Did it just disappear?

It was recycled.

Like many things whatever the (est) thing out there is the only most people, even relatively knowledgable people can name. Like we all know the Mariana Trench is the deepest point on Earth.

The Mariana's Trench isn't even a Million years old, and it is part of the recycling process.

Geology has not proven the tectonic plates have been recycled nor does THAT prove the Earth is not flat.

I used the flat earth analogy , but really I shouldn't have. It's not clear to the average how it shows the earth is not flat. Anyhow, you wish to think the Earth doesn't recycle itself through Subduction, I'm not going to try and convince you.

You're a smart person, you could do a little reading up on it if you choose,or not.

 

[JoePepsiCo]

Marian's Trench...


lol


Channeling your inner Robin Hood?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Marian's Trench...


lol


Channeling your inner Robin Hood?

Thanks for catching my typo. I didn't notice it.

 

[JoePepsiCo]

I don't sweat mine.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Yes, we do, the rock we have found that is 4 Billion years old makes up less than 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% ( I really don't know the percentage, but it's minuscule) of the entire rock from the beginning of the time earth formed.

Also don't forget there is still another 500 million years prior of Earths existence, and we can't find rock that old. . What happened to it? Did it just disappear?

It was recycled.

The Mariana's Trench isn't even a Million years old, and it is part of the recycling process.

I used the flat earth analogy , but really I shouldn't have. It's not clear to the average how it shows the earth is not flat. Anyhow, you wish to think the Earth doesn't recycle itself through Subduction, I'm not going to try and convince you.

You're a smart person, you could do a little reading up on it if you choose,or not.

First again, you have no clue how much of that "original" rock is or isn't around. However for the purposes of your question did it just appear. It was not recycled because it didn't exist prior to that point. Mariana's trench is 180 million years old so give or take 1/3rd of the history of life on Earth not some very new thing. You could have at least spoken about the Himilyas which are only about 50 million years old so roughly 1/10th the age of known life on earth.

The fact that you even know the word subduction and insist that the the earth is recycled shows that terrifying lack of understanding that we see all to often with climate change deniers. We have anything that breaks any pattern whatsoever and its proof that this is all bullshit. Like when 2024 fails to break all records, which is my personal prediction having followed that science for most of my life, though admittedly much of what I bought into in the 90s was the logic of a preteen and teen. However since I view pollution as a whole and not always this one thing the fact that I grew up in an LA where you could see the air and smog still sucks but our sky isn't brown meant the science was right. The Ozone was being depleted and the world got together and banned CFCs. I believe it was the Montreal Accords but I could be wrong on that and I'm trying to minimize how much Google Fu I use in these kinds of conversations. Either way now that the hole is healing I have to read through countless scientifically illiterate people tell me that the scientists were wrong. That governments are just running a scam not the truth which is that if we treat government as a tool it can accomplish great things.

Subduction however is not "recycling" That shit goes the part that does go, goes beneath another plate. IT is not destroyed melted down and brought back up. Some goes under and some gets pushed up. like if you take two of almost anything and moosh them together some ends up on the bottom and some ends up pushed up. This is how you get marine fossils atop mountains and yes in places like say the Mediterrean which is very, very young in geological terms with land animals under it.

Even the ice ages do things like carve out the great lakes. We however know about the seven primary plates which is roughly North America, South America which were separate until pretty recently. We see this in the fossil record specifically that that marsupials and giant birds were rocking South America and also Australia previously connected by Antarctica which currently hosts no full time vertebrate life. These things are not random at all.

Because we know about things like Pangea, Gondwanaland and Laurasia we can be very safe in assuming that surface masses, not to be mistaken with land mass in the traditional sense have remained rather static since the lava cooled enough to form solid crusts. Which is how that rock you are so fucking proud of randomly formed. Yes it did JUST APPEAR. Your argument can be summed up here as if I leave gummy bears in the car during the day and when I open it at night I have the fucking blob this is witchcraft.

Honestly Fuzzy I would be less upset if you weren't both intelligent and someone on Lit that I genuinely respect. I actually had respect for Ishmael when he was around and something akin to it for Vette at least during the 2000s much of that died later. My point here is you've been around long enough to know that I do hang my hat proudly on science, history and politics. You are high on the list of people I never really intended to cross swords with.

Me and Rob have crossed up before and even if I couldn't point to every conflict we tend to in a worst case scenario come to a "Okay, we need to slap down the Bs (Busybody, BotanyBoi etc) and then we can start arguing about if Pi Day (3:14) is more important than Stone Cold Steve Austin day (3:!6) STONE COLD, STONE COLD, BAWH GAWD KING ITS STONE COLD!!!!) but the respect is there.

You are in that crowd for me regardless if I'm there for you. If I am I an honored, if not I endeavor to prove my worth. But I digress a bit.

ITs not just that I'm a smart person. I don't even know if that is really true. What I know is that if you are talking about sharks, dinosaurs or encroaching areas of geology or biology you best test your vest before stepping to me cus I have everything but the paperwork to make me a pro.

One more time encase I wasn't 100% clear. You seem to have a well above average understanding of the pertinent science. I do not come across that every year. Fuck every decade which (Fuck you Galapagos Penguins!) having someone tell me everything I know is wrong because there are penguins in the tropics north of the equator disproves everything else. I can't and don't even want to shut you down because I want to know your sources and pick your brain about why you believe this or that and where your specific interests lie.

That said you could be a tiny bit more flattering about finding someone who isn't ignorant on the subjectss at hand and I have kept the Google Fu down to basically double checking dates that I mostly didn't care to commit to memory. I am not dates drivin.

You ar exhausting because you are knowledgable and I can't stick to the tried and often true "Fucking ignorant bigot lets skip to you hate anything not white, male, Christian and rich and I have to genuinely put in work.

I am both honored and humbled by our discourse. I will keep fencing with you here but gods I hope we can be on the same side the next time. I will go so far as to apologize for attempting to make you look flat out stupid with the Flat Earth BS. But you have been here long enough to know its not like I haven't seen simialar stuff.

If you want we can keep playing. I'm a mere 41 years old. Since I learned to speak I've known as much as anybody about paleontolgy and sharks as anybody who doesn't make their living on that front. The last time I stretched like this I found out later was a fairly famous paleontologist. Not Jack Horner level but far enough the food chain that . . bye for now and I look forward to your company and I totally would never have said I struggled against anybody. This site is filled with clowns.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

First again, you have no clue how much of that "original" rock is or isn't around. However for the purposes of your question did it just appear. It was not recycled because it didn't exist prior to that point. Mariana's trench is 180 million years old so give or take 1/3rd of the history of life on Earth not some very new thing. You could have at least spoken about the Himilyas which are only about 50 million years old so roughly 1/10th the age of known life on earth.

Again, and this will be my last on it, since you seem to believe you're correct.

"The Mariana Trench is part of the Izu–Bonin–Mariana subduction system that forms the boundary between two tectonic plates. In this system, the western edge of one plate, the Pacific Plate, is subducted (i.e., thrust) beneath the smaller Mariana Plate that lies to the west. Crustal material at the western edge of the Pacific Plate is some of the oldest oceanic crust on Earth (up to 170 million years old), and is, therefore, cooler and denser; hence its great height difference relative to the higher-riding (and younger) Mariana Plate. The deepest area at the plate boundary is the Mariana Trench proper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench

The red portion is not 180 million years old.

How many types of Rock are there?

"There are three main types of rocks: sedimentary, igneous, and metamorphic. Each of these rocks are formed by physical changes—such as melting, cooling, eroding, compacting, or deforming—that are part of the rock cycle."

What happens to the rock as it slides under the other plate? It melts, and changes and under pressure as it cools reforms into rock.

The rocks on Earth have been recycled, that is what happens with plate tectonics.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I genuinely wish I knew how the fuck you format posts cus I could do that pre-Trump but I have not learned how it works in the modern world which makes my posts sloppy as fuck and its kinda annoying. It usually isn't super important but still. I loathe it and wish a new system would appear for something like paragraph breaks for this.

Making due with the data.

Yes some rocks go down like London Bridge when I come around. I don't know why each time I come around women's London, London wanna go down! WHAT!

Jokes aside I'm barely arguing most if that you say. Just the recycle point. IF I slam to plates together and one slides over the top which is essentially what's up here the bottom plat is going under, not melting and reforming. Most geologists believe that there is a point where the plates will "reverse" direction. Kinda like I can have a skiboard table and throw some pucks there. It's not precise but they will bounce into each other and here the leading theory is a new super continent will form. Not that assuming we don't pull out some bullshit hack with cybernetics none of even our progeny (I have an intend to have none for the record. Fuck Earth but love to you guys) will see it.at no point in predictable history will China or Colorado be "recycled". Theyw ill bounce for a lack of better terms and we'll see a brand new Super Continent.

I haven't looked into the models.. I'm kinda hoping if I could time skip to see how the game plays out with all the bullshit humans did.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I genuinely wish I knew how the fuck you format posts cus I could do that pre-Trump but I have not learned how it works in the modern world which makes my posts sloppy as fuck and its kinda annoying. It usually isn't super important but still. I loathe it and wish a new system would appear for something like paragraph breaks for this.

Making due with the data.

Yes some rocks go down like London Bridge when I come around. I don't know why each time I come around women's London, London wanna go down! WHAT!

Jokes aside I'm barely arguing most if that you say. Just the recycle point. IF I slam to plates together and one slides over the top which is essentially what's up here the bottom plat is going under, not melting and reforming. Most geologists believe that there is a point where the plates will "reverse" direction. Kinda like I can have a skiboard table and throw some pucks there. It's not precise but they will bounce into each other and here the leading theory is a new super continent will form. Not that assuming we don't pull out some bullshit hack with cybernetics none of even our progeny (I have an intend to have none for the record. Fuck Earth but love to you guys) will see it.at no point in predictable history will China or Colorado be "recycled". Theyw ill bounce for a lack of better terms and we'll see a brand new Super Continent.

I haven't looked into the models.. I'm kinda hoping if I could time skip to see how the game plays out with all the bullshit humans did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subduction#/media/File:Subduction-en.svg

 

[Bray123]

Rising sea levels wipe out homes owned by capitalists. True to form, they suddenly want socialist policies to help them.

https://imgur.com/pdmZnUw

 

[lovecraft68]

Lol....spin is fun.

You would know.
You spin to the left, others spin to the right.
But of course, both are convinced their spin is correct.
Reality is the answer is always somewhere in between, but to get there, you have to think for yourself and not be told what to think.

Leaves most here out.

 

[ll74]

You would know.
You spin to the left, others spin to the right.
But of course, both are convinced their spin is correct.
Reality is the answer is always somewhere in between, but to get there, you have to think for yourself and not be told what to think.

Leaves most here out.

How neat!

The "station data is corrupt" studies are cherry picked and full of shit... Hence the spin.

 

[jomar]

@Sean Renaud and @Fuzzy1975. You guys seem to be talking about the same thing but from different altitudes

 

[Sean Renaud]

You would know.
You spin to the left, others spin to the right.
But of course, both are convinced their spin is correct.
Reality is the answer is always somewhere in between, but to get there, you have to think for yourself and not be told what to think.

Leaves most here out.

Two people having differing beliefs does not mean the correct answer is in the middle. This both sides bullshit is a mental disease in the US. This here is science not whether or not pineapple belongs on pizza. There is no thinking for yourself on many, many things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subduction#/media/File:Subduction-en.svg

I know how subduction works which despite knowing what wikipedia is you clearly do not. That is not recycling in any sense of the word. Even if it worked kinda sorta how you are claiming here we know how fast the plates move. There is absolutely no way in hell that a rock that is 4 billion years old exists period if the world was recycling even every billion years.