Age of consent (not a rant on Laurel's take on it)

[TheEarl]

This isn't moaning about the preferred age of consent on Lit.

This is a serious question about dirty old man territory. There is an English magazine called FHM (which may or may not go to your country) which runs a 100 Sexiest women poll every year. Readers select who they think are the 10 sexiest women in the world and the most popular 100 choices are immortalised in a booklet thingy with sexy pictures of the ladies in question. So far, so hoopy.

Last year they ran a sidebar talking about some of the weird and wonderful votes polled by some of the readers. These included Michelle Trachtenberg (quite blatantly underage at the time), Anne Widdecombe (child scaring English politician), Marge Simpson (imaginary!) and Charlotte Church. The apparent problem with Charlotte Church was not that she was underage (turned 16 that year), but that many of the FHM readers were lusting for a girl who was only just age of consent and was very nearly still a child.

Charlotte Church is legal according to English law. This sentence made me think about what is and isn't considered acceptable. Me going out with her would be, as I'm only 18 myself. Would a 21 y/o and a 16 y/o be acceptable to you? 31 y/o? 50 y/o? It'd be legal for a 50 y/o to fuck Charlotte Church (and Avril Lavigne, Michelle Trachtenberg, etc if they came over to England), but would you find it acceptable? Or would he be a dirty old man?

More weird and wonderful thoughts from the mind of:

The Earl

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I wouldn't mind if my daughter, at the age of 16, dated 25-year-olds. BUT, if they were older than that, I'd be concerned.

True, love is blind, but to me, a greater age difference than than would suggest that there is something not quite right. I mean, they would be at so different levels in the maturing process! Why would a 30 year old man, who's working on his career, want to hang out with a girl who talks about her huge problems with zits and homework? And why would a 16 year old girl want to be with a man in his 50'ies, and listen to him talk about things that happend before she was even born?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Just wanted to add: I can understand that sexual attraction is a very unpredictable thing, and I would not yell at either my son nor my daughter for choosing a sex partner that was much older than them - gotta let the youngsters play around before they settle down! - but for a serious relationship, I'd be worried. I just doubt that it would work!

 

[SlickTony]

Well, blimey, yer grace! I didn't realize you were only 18. I don't go to folks' profiles as often as I might; for one reason, the one you end up in when you click on it from the bulletin board is different from the one that comes up when you click from the story and it doesn't tell you as much.

You've said some very thought-provoking things here. I think most of us would find the thought of Charlotte Church or Averil Levigne (my son likes her, but he is a bit of a naif so he really likes her for her songs ) with a fifty-year-old man to be somewhat off-putting.

On the other hand, we don't have a view into the mind of either of these young women--for all we know, there are certain middle-aged men that they think are hot and would do in a New York minute if they had the chance. My younger sister (the one who wrote the screenplay Tears of the Sun whose title was stolen) and I were discussing the Clinton/Monica Lewinsky scandal some time after it happened, and she said that if she were twenty-one and had a chance to do the President she'd have probably jumped on it. There's that whole power-and-status-is-sexy thing, plus I've heard it said that Clinton really is quite magnetic when you get close to him. My daughter thinks older guys are attractive--I mean, there's Sean Connery and Paul Newman and Clint Eastwood et al.

Then there are the historical/cultural ramifications to consider. There have been periods in history when an older man with a younger woman was not only viewed as acceptable, it was the way marriages were arranged. In ancient Greece and Rome, it was common for men in their thirties to marry girls in their teens. They thought by this they were assured of getting someone who was physically and emotionally innocent; at the same time, girls were encouraged to grow up faster than they are now with regards to practical matters: I understand that it was not uncommon to find a woman in her late teens not only married to an older man, but having to very quickly learn how to manage a household staff, do the marketing, and make sure that the dairy room, the stillroom, and the herbery were well stocked.

During this time, if you were a parent, you were far more likely to accept the offer of an older man for your daughter; I mean, who was going to look after her better and make sure she was well provided for? Some older guy who'd made his fortune, or a boy her age?

Also, I notice that what was once sauce for the gander only is now sauce for the goose: in The Perfect World, a forum I hang out in when I'm not hanging out in here, there is a thread called The Boy Toy Thread, contributed to exclusively by women, which consists of pictures of young, hot-looking men and discussions of same. The men run the gamut of male attractiveness, and some of them are neither boys nor toys; in fact, some of them aren't even alive; I myself went to a great deal of trouble to try to find a picture of Gary Cooper that would transfer. As far as the living men, they include Brandon Lee, Enrique Iglesias, Keanu Reeves, that Joe Millionaire guy, Evan Marriott (who's my daughter's age, but who the hell cares) and even Eminem, who has a rather common young-redneck kind of face but lovely eyelashes and a rather nice body.

I hope people don't look at the length of our posts and pass this thread by; I think it's worth expanding and expounding on. By the way, what does FHM stand for anyway?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Where can I find this Boy Toy thread?

 

[SlickTony]

Svenskaflicka, try this:http://www.theperfectworld.us/thread.php?id=721&postNum=2547

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Thanks, Tony. I owe you one!

 

[gauchecritic]

I think the interesting point here is that in modern society it is frowned upon for men not in their twenties to date teenagers (a la Svenska), frowned upon may I say by women.(and the girls' fathers no doubt) I'm pretty sure that most blokes would be jealous ('specially about charlotte church). On the other hand it is acceptable (a la svenska) for mature women to drool over teenage boys. (I'm not including svenska in the mature role)

So we have mature men being attracted to girls of obviously child bearing age with many more years and babies to come and mature women being attracted to boys, presumably for their staying power and enthusiasm (because as we all know men can father children even into their 90s).

Personally I don't much care either way, I've always preferred older women (with very few exceptions). But I am a teensy bit aggravated about the double standards.

And one other thing. The problem about preferring older women is a bit of a bugger when you get to my age, there just aren't many of them about.

But that's my problem and I'm

Gauche

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Maybe that's the whole thing, Gauche.

Whereas society at large smile condoningly at older men, potent and powerful and rich, marrying younger women, and fathering children at an age when they should be having grandchildren, BUT, they frown upon mature women who marry younger men although they have passed their child-bearing age, and obviously are only into the sex these young hot hunks can give them.

And we all know that society doesn't think that women should enjoy sex for itself, only as a way of showing their love for their husband, or to reproduce. If neither of those two requirements is fulfilled, then the woman is looked upon as a sex-crazy ho.

Me, on the other hand, thinks that sex is a funny game that peopleshould feel free to enjoy with any partner of their choice, as long as both partners are willing. The whole concept of older men having children with younger women is, to me, tainted with all the possible nastiness of men trying to prove that they are still young and handsome and virile, men leaving their first wives because they're not sexy enough anymore, men not caring about their first children because they are busy making a career, letting the wives stay home with the kids, and then going public in newspapers and magazines boasting about how they now, when they don't work anymore, are going to take better care of their new kids - their first children should be pissed off, IMHO.

And old men lusting after young lolitas gives me a sour taste in my mouth, too - I'm thinking strippers, hookers, give-me-a-bj-and-you-can-be-in-the-movie, etc.
Old women sticking money in male strippers underwear are not looking to oppress them, they just want to watch them shake their pelvis.

 

[pop_54]

Yep

Maturity thing really I suppose, if a gal's mature enough in the head and body as long as she's legal who are we to tell her what to do and who to do it with. Same for a boy and mature woman.

I'd raise my eyebrows somewhat at a guy in his thirties or older screwing a 16 yr old, I too would worry about motive there.

But it happens and every so often a loving and stable relationship happens.

I was 28 when I met my darling wifey to be, she was 18, we clicked, I behaved myself for the first time in my life and here we are now, just celebrated our 25th anniversary 2 weeks ago.

It can and does work out sometimes better than with two young one's, check the divorce rate for same age marriages and older/younger partner marriages, I don't need to tell you which seems to survive intact best.

pops................

 

[SlickTony]

just celebrated our 25th anniversary 2 weeks ago.

Wonderful!

 

[Lovepotion69]

I wouldn't mind if my daughter, at the age of 16, dated 25-year-olds. BUT, if they were older than that, I'd be concerned.

True, love is blind, but to me, a greater age difference than than would suggest that there is something not quite right. I mean, they would be at so different levels in the maturing process! Why would a 30 year old man, who's working on his career, want to hang out with a girl who talks about her huge problems with zits and homework? And why would a 16 year old girl want to be with a man in his 50'ies, and listen to him talk about things that happend before she was even born?

I think I'm with Svenska on this one. I find that when you're 16 you are not too young to start a more serious relationship. That's the age most teens get into that anyway. Heaps of girls at my high school went out with guys 23-35. I think that depending on the girl and guy, they might be on the same level. It's so individual. But yes, someone in his 30s probably wouldn't have very much in common with a 16 y/o.

I think though that the older you get, the less age matters. You mature in different stages, some more than others. Sometimes two people just happen to be at the same point in their lives. It's not very likely if there is a huge age gap, but a gap of 10-13 years should still be ok.

Personally I've always gotten along better with people older than me, and during my MA some of my closer friends were 30 and upwards (I'm turning 24 soon). One of my now best friends is 47. He's a great guy and we hit it off well. We understand each other, though he of course has become a bit of a father figure. I'm not attracted to him, but if I was...well, I don't think I'd care about the age difference.

Keep up the discussion, it's an interesting one.

 

[Chicklet]

strange thing, isn't it, how the age gap seems smaller as you get older? at 21 i feel that i wouldn't want to date anyone more than ten years older than me.

i'm reminded of my ex-boss. she was dating a man 13 yrs older than herself; she was 48. my co-worker was dating a younger woman, 13 yrs younger than himself. he was 33. my boss would come in and rant and rave at my co-worker at how "wrong" his relationship was. when, in reality, she was doing the exact same thing. weird, isn't it?

I would definitely not want my children dating someone so much older than themselves. but, then, i probably won't want them dating anyone. my parents are 11 yrs apart. i have an older brother from my dad's 1st marriage who is 12 yrs older than me. my mother babysat my older brother when she was 15. who knew that 3 yrs later she'd be married to my dad?

Chicklet

 

[SlickTony]

When I was a teenager, my parents wouldn't let me date anyone much older than 2 years older than me, and when I was 14 they felt even that was too young. So quite naturally I went and married a man twelve years older than I was. And the man I became involved with after that was sixteen years older than I. However I got out of that phase when I went back to college. The husband I've had for the last almost 24 years is two years younger, which at our age hardly means anything.

 

[Master_Vassago]

First of all I am wondering if this stemmed from the contraversy a few days ago here on lit.

You know what I never thought to throw any of this into it but I am four years older than My wife. Now four years isn't that much now, but when we were dating I was 19 going on 20 and she was 16, and I was leaving for the military while she was a junior in high school.

Now after four years of marriage and two little ones I can say we are just as smitten with eachother as the day we started dating.

I have a background much similiar to Chicklet, I have a brother seven years older than I and two little sisters who are 15 and 13. There is an eleven year gap between my parents and myself and the oldest sister.

I have seen some of her friends when I travel home and they are attractive but I don't think of them sexually. The difference I want to point out is in a few years when they are 18 I will be 29 same age as My parents would have been many years ago. If I weren't married it might seem odd but if the girl was intelligent and one of My sister's hot friends maybe I would persue it. Yes, perhaps just to bed a young girl again lol. Or maybe even just to date, I am outgoing and play sports semi-professionally.

I guess it depends on the two people. Normally though it is the older man younger woman scenario. This is because girls mature faster for the most part physically as well as mentally.

I wonder way back when, would a caveman and woman have grunted out their ages once the girl developed physically. And did they have rules and regulations then? Or could you just have sex with any pretty thing you could club?

Oh well my time is up Enjoy the rest of your lit postings.

 

[Master_Vassago]

Side note, for 18 The_Earl you are one very level headed mature individual. I might let you date My daughters lol.

 

[SexyChele]

Earl - you are 18?!? Damn, but you are one of the most mature and well-stated 18 year olds I've ever met!

When I was 16, I know I was fascinated with men who were in their 20s, certainly. Hey, they could buy me all the cigarettes and alcohol I would want, right? But relationship? Hell, I was not ready for relationships then. But I am a late bloomer, so I am not the standard to be measured by.

When I was 21, though, I met a man who was 12 years older than me. We dated for 7 years and many people actually thought we were married, we knew each other so well. In most ways we got along very well. However, we would have major disagreements about the type of music to listen to, the style of cars, where to hang out. I thought most of his friends were stodgy and boring. He thought my friends were all airheads without purpose in life. Normally, I ended up giving in to what he wanted to do, and many of my opinions today were shaped by him. I don't know if I would want that for my daughter, if I had one. I would want her to enjoy her friends - even if they are all airheads! And not have to listen to music she likes only when her boyfriend isn't around. (And to have to hide the CDs and tapes, because she might get "the lecture" about her taste in music needs to be improved)

On a brighter note, I also dated a man who was 13 years older than me. (Very shortly after breaking up with the other one) His outlook was much different - perhaps because he never fully matured, who knows? He was far more accepting of my friends and music tastes, and he was always up for something new.

It depends on the two people involved, naturally, but I don't think I would get involved again with a man who was more than 10 years my senior.

And as for men who are younger? I might go 2 to 4 years, depending on his maturity level. I've dated men who were almost 10 years younger and found we actually had very little in common. But again, it depends on who is involved and how they relate to each other.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I've been in relationships where the guy was 5 years younger than me. Except for this one relationship, age was never a problem. As have been stated by several people above, people mature at a different age, and I've been with several guys who were mature at a very young age.

A friend of mine is 5 years older than her boyfriend, and they met when he was 15 and she was 20. She told me that she was a bit suspicious at first, but when she found out how well they connected, she went for it. They have been together for 3 years now, and are planning to get married. They go extremely well together. Some people are just Meant To Be Together.

They have been ridiculed and picked at a lot, though. People can't seem to accept that my friend is with a younger guy, especially not that much younger. She's been told so much BS about "robbing the cradle"..! I've tried to encourage them both when they got down, and tell them that those morons are just jealous because the two of them has such a remarkably strong and loving relationship.
Hell, I was very jealous of them before I met my Hubby, and I told them so up front. "I'm so jealous with you guys. Not because I want to break you up, but because I want to have as great a relationship as you two have, with someone who loves me as much as you two love each other."
They were very relieved to hear someone express her jealousy that way. And, a couple of months after I had said that, I met Hubby...

It's a fact: Whatever you do, whatever you say, good or bad, will come back to you three times stronger.

 

[Un-registered]

Quite a lot of women marry men much older than themselves. I understand it is called a father fixation. I had a relationship for a while with a divorced woman in her mid 30's as I was approaching sixty. I don't think either of us mistook what we had for "true luv" but we each received a lot from the other. She got help around the house, and with her four young children (especially the teenage boy), and with her bank balance. I got a stable home to live in at a turbulent time in my life, and a keen and agile sex partner (which my ex- had never been). I also got a lot of fun from having young kids to take out and do all the parent things with.

The age difference was 25 years. The question is, do all you youngsters discussing this think we were disgusting?

Or maybe do you think I am disgusting for being interested in sex now I am a wrinkly?

 

[TheWriter]

In Nature most males cease to reproduce when they either

- die
- grow too old to intimidate other males
- grow too old defeat other males in combat
- are too weak from age to impress the females
- are too weak to overpower the females and demonstrate their suitability to mate

Society is of course highly un-natural and so therefore imposes rules, but these rules are not really based on anything other creating the illusion that humans are not animals. That doesn't make them right or wrong.

 

[Guest]

Oh yeah.........

Several years ago when I was in my late 30's, going thru a divorce, my next door neighbors daughter who was 16 came over once in a while to help clean my house. I paid her of course, and appreciated the help. However, one day I took an arm load of laundry into the bedroom to put away and found her lying on my bed...nude, waiting for me.

Scared the hell out of me. As nice as it was (especially as it had now been a while) to see such sweet tasty succulent "youngness" lying there. I ran like a thief in the night.

Well eventually anyway.........

I remain,

 

[Sabledrake]

I'm 3 and 1/2 years older than my husband. We met in college so the teen thing didn't matter that much. It's never a problem for us -- whenever he remarks on it, I remark right back that maybe 'tis true, but who's the one going grey and thinning in the back?, and that usually hushes him up

When I was in high school, my divorced mom was dating a guy 9 years younger than her. I said something to Mom along the lines of how that would have been like one of my friends dating my baby brother. She winced.

And then, lo and behold in the course of time, my baby brother grew up and married a woman 9 years his senior!

Sabledrake

 

[SlaveMasterUK]

I wonder if anyone dares expand TheWriter's thread in the opposite direction, to when males and females are naturally begin mating..?

This is something I wish I could throw my ten cents into but TBH I don't feel I have much experience in this area. I'm attracted to girls who are not only my own age but also of the same social status: my ideal girl would be my age, in a career she enjoys, perhaps living at home or renting with friends. Truth is I have never actually had a relationship with that kind of woman because they don't seem to find me attractive.

I was very attracted to a great friend who fits the above description, and it cut me to pieces when she turned me down saying she didn't want anything more than friendship, then began seeing a guy in his mid-30s several weeks later.

I don't think I can find any argument to their relationship beyond personal jealousy. Due to my small physique and young features I was dismissed as immature throughout my highschool years and I now have a lot of unresolved bitterness. Although I can't justifiably argue against big age gaps in relationships, I still feel hurt when I hear of a girl my age with an older guy.

Ax

 

[TheEarl]

Okay, trusting you people a bit here. Something personal coming up:

I'm best friends with a girl who is 14 y/o and therefore 4 years younger than me. Recently she announced that she liked me. We could quite easily end up as b/f-g/f, but I have demurred because I don't think it'd be fair to form a relationship with her, considering that I will be leaving the area in October and that 4 years is too much at the moment.

Bearing in mind that whatever you say will have no influence on my decision (as it's already made), would you consider a sexual relationship between a 14 y/o and an 18 y/o acceptable? Would you consider a sexual relationship between two 14 y/os acceptable? Should the age of consent law be modified to state that only people under 25 can have sex with teenagers?

The Earl

 

[SlickTony]

Speaking as the mother of a fourteen-year-old, even though I felt quite like a woman at that age, it just seems awfully young and vulnerable now. In terms of school rank, that's a freshman and a senior. My advice, speaking from my gut: give her time to ripen a bit. She needs friends more than she does lovers.