A thought about incest

[CyranoJ]

Psychiatrists, when they are not dealing with people who are genetically predisposed to neurologically based mental illnesses, deal with people who are damaged and disturbed, often as the result of traumatic experiences. It is no surprise that people who have been traumatized by sexual abuse at the hands of close relatives would wind up in the care of a psychiatrist.

The assumption that people who have sought out treatment for trauma must be an abnormally pathological exception from which generalization is impossible is an example of special pleading. Psychiatry is also our primary source of information on the dynamics of victimization by non-incestuous rape, for instance, because we inherently do not have data on people who don't or can't report or seek help. This absolutely does not compel us to assume or conjecture that there's some undisclosed population of rape victims out there who "really wanted it*" but aren't coming forward to be represented in the data; and I'd say crying "spotlight fallacy" about incest is comparably... well, fallacious.

Of course you could argue that theoretical rape victims who "really wanted it*" wouldn't wind up on a psychiatrist's couch either. Except there are a ton of other far more plausible reasons why people victimized or traumatized by abuse might not report or seek treatment: like fear of reprisal from the abuser, or having been convinced that they were complicit in or somehow deserved or brought the abuse on themselves, or a general atmosphere in which they might feel their claims would be dismissed or disbelieved. All of which factors play a strong role in the underreporting of rape, and are also for closely-related reasons thought to be likely candidates in the underreporting of sibling sexual abuse.

(* Just for the sake of argument. I'm not actually attributing this argument/attitude to you.)

Now, we agree that exploitation of differentials in power in incest is unquestionably abusive, so, groovy. But:

But what about incest where there is no power differential?

Better question: is there some arbitrary point at which there stops being a power differential? Likely no, but even granting that such a point were reachable:

Where the participants are truly equal adults who, for their own reasons, mutually choose to have sex despite all of the rules against doing so?

As I asked earlier: to what extent is it really likely that truly equal adults with absolutely no prior exposure to or interest in incest would suddenly develop one, out of the blue, in adulthood? There isn't much data to indicate that this is really a thing, but there is plenty of data to indicate that sibling abuse (or other kinds of abuse), starting young, may be carried forward into adulthood as a pattern in which the victim feels complicit. (See the second link above.) I think probably the likeliest candidate for truly "equal" incestuous relationships is "twincest," but even there making the prima facie assumption that all such relationships should be assumed to be healthy and consensual would strike me as dangerous.

Now as it happens, I agree with you that the barrier of absolute mob-hysteria shame surrounding incest is also destructive... but not because I think there's really tons of totally healthy and consensual adult incest going on out there, but rather precisely because that barrier of shame (in a precise parallel with barriers of shaming about rape and of rape victims) is often used by abusers to trap their victims and prevent them from reporting the activity or seeking help.

 

[CyranoJ]

And I don't want to be derailing this thread forever, so I'll just leave off with this: the main take-away I'm hoping for here is that condemnation of incest isn't just some archaic, irrational taboo that's being pulled out of society's collective arse based on stone-aged religious prejudice; and that on the whole -- and whatever theoretical exceptions one might be able to construct or optimistically guess at -- defending real-life incest as harmless and consensual is just a losing proposition and people shouldn't do it. It's fine to just let fantasy be fantasy and to accept that one is fantasizing about something that isn't necessarily healthy IRL; working out those feelings and those attractions to the taboo is what fantasy is about in the first place.

 

[hilton1958]

Suspicions arise when a "teacher" uses teenage cellphone-speak, poor grammar, and doesn't bother to capitalize.

I was also thinking that it's a good job she's a math teacher and not an English teacher, lol.

 

[Harold_Hill]

Real Incest

It seems that all you read about, or hear about is the trauma caused by nonconsensual or coerced incest. Whether the parties are related or not, any nonconsensual, or forced sex is rape, and rape is traumatic; however, it would be incorrect to assume that all, (or even the majority), of incest is nonconsensual or coerced. In our western culture, (US, Europe, etc), the overwhelming majority of incest is consensual and considered healthy by the families involved.

When people grow up in nudist or naturalist families, (where sex is shared openly and not hidden like it is in mainstream families), sex is accepted as normal between family members. Nudists/naturalists have their own private camps/resorts to keep themselves hidden from public view. Do you think all they do is walk around in the sun naked? Of course it is about natural sex, including incest. When you grow up in a family culture where sex between family members is treated as normal, you accept it as normal as an adult.

Nudists/naturalists aren't going to come here and post about their lifestyle, but they do exist in large numbers. You may even know or work with someone who practices incest, but they will never tell you. They are very closed ranks in their private lives, and they avoid problems with outsiders like the plague.

I'm sorry for those traumatized by forced sex with a family member, but that isn't incest, that's just rape. You shouldn't confuse incest with rape.

 

[CyranoJ]

I'm sorry for those traumatized by forced sex with a family member, but that isn't incest, that's just rape. You shouldn't confuse incest with rape.

Actually incest is clinically identified with manipulative sexual abuse, not necessarily just forcible rape. And yes, you should identify incest with abuse, for all the reasons spelled out in the long conversation above.

That's quite a statement about the nudist lifestyle and certainly runs counter to anything I've ever heard from/about nudists, part of the philosophy as I understood to have been about demystifying nudity so that it isn't constantly identified with sex. If nudism is really commonly identified with incest IRL that's fucked up; I don't know if there's any proof of it beyond porn fictions about fantasy versions of nudism, though.

(In general, extremely serious skepticism is warranted about the trope "sure there may be lots of clinical evidence that incest is unhealthy, but those people are just unfortunate exceptions and you'll have to take my word for it there are tons of people having the totally healthy version of it who just aren't telling anyone." That's what I remarked on as being special pleading in the convo with Hans above. I compared it to rape culture's mythical "victim-who-wants-it" for a reason.)

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm sorry for those traumatized by forced sex with a family member, but that isn't incest, that's just rape. You shouldn't confuse incest with rape.

Yes yes and Yes!

Thank you.

People here have extreme kinks including rape and incest, but in the stories here its only in the rape category that people get off on someone being hurt

And anytime I mention that I get "well, you write incest stories." I write consensual 18+ incest fantasies as do we all here, we do not write about children being raped.

Rape is the only actual sex crime. Even bestiality is only a crime because animals cannot give consent, hence...its rape.

When a father or uncle diddles their young daughter/son niece and gets arrested...

Please find me a case to cite where the charge was "incest" the charge is child abuse, molestation and...statutory....rape...

It all comes down to consent in every kink imaginable and if there isn't any, you have rape and that is a crime and here on lit it is glamorized and glorified.

yet people throw stones at incest fantasies between consensual adult characters.

 

[CyranoJ]

Most BDSM and NC kink gets off on the aberrant nature of the acts involved, and in fantasy fiction on the fantasized scenario of deriving pleasure from the most extreme and least regulated forms of them (the stuff that done in real life is criminal, reprehensible and not sexy at all). Most Incest/Taboo kink is by contrast a fantasy of acceptance and normalcy for practices which aren't accepted or normal. They're mirrors of each other but they share the fact of both being fantasy, and of both being fantasy about basically non-con activities. That one of them adopts the fantasy conceit of being more like vanilla erotica is fine as far as it goes as long as one doesn't actually confuse it with the kink itself being about something vanilla and IRL acceptable.

 

[Harold_Hill]

Actually incest is clinically identified with manipulative sexual abuse, not necessarily just forcible rape. And yes, you should identify incest with abuse, for all the reasons spelled out in the long conversation above.

That's quite a statement about the nudist lifestyle and certainly runs counter to anything I've ever heard from/about nudists, part of the philosophy as I understood to have been about demystifying nudity so that it isn't constantly identified with sex. If nudism is really commonly identified with incest IRL that's fucked up; I don't know if there's any proof of it beyond porn fictions about fantasy versions of nudism, though.

Here is the flaw in your argument, "clinically identified". Life is not clinically identified; life is what it is, and contrary to what people may think, one-size does not fit all. There are as many different ways to live life as there are people, and just because someone doesn't share their private life with you, doesn't mean they think or live like you. Some nudist do walk around in the sun just for fun, but not all. Do you really think nudists walk around among naked people and never get aroused?

 

[CyranoJ]

Here is the flaw in your argument, "clinically identified". Life is not clinically identified; life is what it is, and contrary to what people may think, one-size does not fit all.

Yeah, except the "clincally identified" stuff is pretty important to figuring out how people respond to trauma and abuse and trying to dismiss it out of hand is just stupid. Again, all this is already explained upthread.

 

[dade37]

My twin sister and I have been in an incestuous relationship most of our lives, we are now 60 and live together after both being married and we are perfectly happy with our arrangement .

Now that I like so very much. Wish I could visit....

 

[lovecraft68]

Most BDSM and NC kink gets off on the aberrant nature of the acts involved, and in fantasy fiction on the fantasized scenario of deriving pleasure from the most extreme and least regulated forms of them (the stuff that done in real life is criminal, reprehensible and not sexy at all). Most Incest/Taboo kink is by contrast a fantasy of acceptance and normalcy for practices which aren't accepted or normal. They're mirrors of each other but they share the fact of both being fantasy, and of both being fantasy about basically non-con activities. That one of them adopts the fantasy conceit of being more like vanilla erotica is fine as far as it goes as long as one doesn't actually confuse it with the kink itself being about something vanilla and IRL acceptable.

The difference between BDSM and NC is the big C word....consent. People seem to often mix the two up. There is a lot of BDSM stories here more suited to non con and in the pay market? Apparently people think if the victim calls their rapist sir or master they are writing BDSM....ugh.

The incest crowd is very fun and fluffy, they shred any incest story that has any type of non consent because it gets in the way of our(as I have the kink) fantasy. The incest crowd is as turned on as much by the love between family members as they are the lust...you could say the incest crowd are pretty much twisted romantics at heart

I have no issue with people having a non consent kink, what I have issue is with the fact many refuse to own it. VVery few are the peopel who can openly admit "I get off on fictional stories where women are brutally abused and raped" note I said fictional...it does not mean they would do this in real life, or think real life rapes are "hot" it means they like the fantasy, but get them to say it the way I just did...denial is not just a river....

 

[CyranoJ]

The difference between BDSM and NC is the big C word....consent. People seem to often mix the two up. There is a lot of BDSM stories here more suited to non con and in the pay market? Apparently people think if the victim calls their rapist sir or master they are writing BDSM....ugh.

Knowing a fair few people in the actual practicing BDSM community (at least in my corner of the world), I'd say BDSM fantasy overlapping with NC is quite common from practitioners, too; it's in actual practice, for obvious reasons, that the rules for safety, sanity and consensuality are absolutely necessary and strictly observed.

I quite agree with you about the necessity of "owning it." From every side of the fence, though; nobody should be under any illusions. I personally don't find it all that "fun and fluffy" to be having multiple page arguments about whether real-life incest is a good idea, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. The kink and the fantasy are what they are and that's fine.

 

[Harold_Hill]

Yeah, except the "clincally identified" stuff is pretty important to figuring out how people respond to trauma and abuse and trying to dismiss it out of hand is just stupid. Again, all this is already explained upthread.

I wasn't trying to dismiss your point of view, and I agree, clinical identification is important when working with people who have been subjected to trauma and/or abuse. However, my point is that I don't think it is productive to link rape by a family member to consensual incest. They are two very different things. After all, this thread, (if I read the original post correctly), isn't about rape, it's about incest.

 

[CyranoJ]

I wasn't trying to dismiss your point of view, and I agree, clinical identification is important when working with people who have been subjected to trauma and/or abuse. However, my point is that I don't think it is productive to link rape by a family member to consensual incest.

I do think it's productive to pay attention to the consensus in the profession that actually deals with incest survivors that "consensual incest" is largely a myth/fantasy, is all. There are reasons for that consensus.

 

[angela40]

its intimate

......

 

[CyranoJ]

(... aaand I'm out for real now. Have a nice day all.)

 

[njlauren]

The population of people under psychiatric care is not the same as the general population.

Psychiatrists, when they are not dealing with people who are genetically predisposed to neurologically based mental illnesses, deal with people who are damaged and disturbed, often as the result of traumatic experiences. It is no surprise that people who have been traumatized by sexual abuse at the hands of close relatives would wind up in the care of a psychiatrist.

It is also 100% true that incest that is not between consenting EQUALS is likely to be abusive and therefore traumatic. Can a 19 year old girl truly consent to sex with her 45 year old father? Can a girl that age genuinely desire a sexual relationship with her dad? It is possible, but unlikely. It is far more likely that at 19 she is still beholden to her father for financial and emotional support and therefore likely to acquiesce to her father's sexual advances. This is abuse. It wouldn't matter if she were 35 and back living with her dad after a divorce and dependent on him to keep a roof over her head. When one person has power over another, genuine consent to a sexual relationship becomes a murky issue at best. The issue of children being molested by adult relatives is so unquestionably abusive that I only mention it here for completeness.

But what about incest where there is no power differential? Where the participants are truly equal adults who, for their own reasons, mutually choose to have sex despite all of the rules against doing so?

Consensual adult incest is different from other consensual sexual relationships between adults in that it is absolutely prohibited by law and social custom. A person can be into a great many different sexual kinks and unusual practices with other adults and never run afoul of the law or truly afoul of what others will consider tolerable. Not so with incest. If two closely related adults choose to have sex together, it is defined by law as a crime regardless of the circumstances. They will be prosecuted if found out. It is also so taboo that people who are found to have done it will be socially ostracized and may even be physically attacked, as the sibling couple in Scotland caught screwing in an elevator were. People threw rocks through the windows of their house and the brother was physically assaulted on the street.

Someone who is involved in a sexual relationship with a related adult that is genuinely consensual is extremely unlikely to reveal it to others under any circumstances. If the relationship is genuinely positive, then they are also unlikely to come to the attention of a psychiatrist, at least for the incest.

Attempting to draw a general conclusion about the public at large from psychiatric patients is an example of the spotlight fallacy:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Spotlight_fallacy

Everyone under psychiatric care is there because they are suffering from mental and/or emotional disturbances. That the people who have suffered sexual abuse at the hands of a relative would end up under the care of a psychiatrist is exactly what one would expect, just as the people who have been sexually abused by people not related to them often wind up under the care of a psychiatrist.

People who have experienced sex with someone related to them that was not abusive or traumatic, but was in fact desired and enjoyed, are unlikely to wind up on a shrink's couch after the fact.

Nicely written, and with real life incest, the real question comes down to consent and the ability to consent. With a parent and a child, or a sibling and a child, it is a no brainer, it is non consent, there is a huge power imbalance there and the child cannot consent, even if the sibling is under age, the family dynamics make it impossible for there not to be a power mismatch.

It gets trickier with adults, as the brilliant post above talks about, a 19 year old college student is dependent on their parent for example, so could dear old dad have an unfair advantage with their daughter, could this be equivalent to a work relationship and quid pro quo? ....and I think it all depends.

If two old siblings have sex, does this hurt them, assuming there is no coercion? In that case, I would need very strong evidence to show harm (leaving out pregnancy, with its genetic risks)...if a 35 year old woman and her 37 year old sibling have sex, it seems like it is consensual. I suspect there may be consequences, one or both of them might struggle with guilt with the societal taboos over it, but is there psychological harm? I would be dubious.

That said, for me personally, incest stories do nothing for me, I never had fantasies like that and quite frankly, the thought of having sex with any of my relatives is a complete turn off .......

 

[Toffer_Guy]

Nicely written, and with real life incest, the real question comes down to consent and the ability to consent. With a parent and a child, or a sibling and a child, it is a no brainer, it is non consent, there is a huge power imbalance there and the child cannot consent, even if the sibling is under age, the family dynamics make it impossible for there not to be a power mismatch.

It gets trickier with adults, as the brilliant post above talks about, a 19 year old college student is dependent on their parent for example, so could dear old dad have an unfair advantage with their daughter, could this be equivalent to a work relationship and quid pro quo? ....and I think it all depends.

If two old siblings have sex, does this hurt them, assuming there is no coercion? In that case, I would need very strong evidence to show harm (leaving out pregnancy, with its genetic risks)...if a 35 year old woman and her 37 year old sibling have sex, it seems like it is consensual. I suspect there may be consequences, one or both of them might struggle with guilt with the societal taboos over it, but is there psychological harm? I would be dubious.

That said, for me personally, incest stories do nothing for me, I never had fantasies like that and quite frankly, the thought of having sex with any of my relatives is a complete turn off .......

I don't imagine my actual mother in my incestuous fantasies. I just don't find her attractive. I just love the thrill of crossing such a taboo line. When Iimagine the mother of my fantasied, I think of some MILF pornstar or sexy, cougar amatuer.

 

[Harold_Hill]

I do think it's productive to pay attention to the consensus in the profession that actually deals with incest survivors that "consensual incest" is largely a myth/fantasy, is all. There are reasons for that consensus.

Here is the problem, people who are not involved in consensual incest use the term "incest survivor". People who are actually involved in consensual incest, don't see themselves as a survivor of anything.

 

[danster21]

Cousins?

......

 

[CyranoJ]

Here is the problem, people who are not involved in consensual incest use the term "incest survivor". People who are actually involved in consensual incest, don't see themselves as a survivor of anything.

No, it's not a problem, because 'consensual' incest is still not a real-world thing. (It is not uncommon for abuse victims to have been convinced, groomed or manipulated into believing themselves complicit, but that's not the same thing as genuine 'consent.') Trying to assume away the consensus of basically an entire profession that has vastly more credibility than you do isn't convincing.

 

[Harold_Hill]

No, it's not a problem, because 'consensual' incest is still not a real-world thing. (It is not uncommon for abuse victims to have been convinced, groomed or manipulated into believing themselves complicit, but that's not the same thing as genuine 'consent.') Trying to assume away the consensus of basically an entire profession that has vastly more credibility than you do isn't convincing.

There is a saying, "You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows", nor do you have to have a Phd to know about life, all you have to do is be a human being who lives in the real world. Highly educated people often know less about real life because they often don't live in the real world. Rather they try to study life from 30,000 feet without touchng the world they are trying to study. Metaphorically, if you want to know how to swim, you have to get your feet wet. You cannot learn how to swim from a book, nor can you learn about life from a book.

 

[rudrakshpathak]

I really do understand and agree with what you say x in an ideal woman's world we should all be allowed to fantasise about these things and ideals too x I fantasise often and bring myself to massive climax every time but purely fantasy and imagination, a safe place, maximum pleasure, total orgasm but no guilt afterwards as all in my head x x x

It's true what you said about blurring the lines between reality and fantasy. Incest makes me hard and anticipating like no other fantasy. Every time I come, the residual feeling is that of calm and content...like I'm fully spent. So yeah, Incest works.
Sad that i don't find someone who is as enthusiastic about it and understands the nedd

 

[Hans101]

It is not special pleading to point out that studying sick populations is not a good way to gain understanding of healthy populations, or the general population.

Studying rape victims to gain an understanding of normal human sexuality will lead you to some very bad conclusions, like the clinically insane assertion made by some fringe fanatics that “sex is always rape.” So too will studying victims of incestuous abuse lead you to some very bad conclusions about incest that is not abusive, even to the point of declaring that the latter does not exist.

Rape is always wrong, just as murder is always wrong. There is no such thing as a rape victim who really wanted it any more than there is a murder victim who wanted to be killed.

Sex, on the other hand, is not always wrong. In fact, sex that is wrong is the exception to the rule. Sex is normally a mutually desired activity. People have sex because they both want to. When this consensual sex occurs between (or sometimes among) competent adults, we call it sex. When sex occurs between between people in which one person is forcing, coercing or even manipulating the other into sex, we call that rape. The two are not the same thing.

Where you and I really seem to disagree is on the question of whether sex between related adults can be consensual. In many cases it is clearly not. In cases that are most likely to come to the attention of psychiatrists it virtually never is. Does that mean consensual incest does not exist?

Cases in which an adult is using a child they are related to for sexual gratification are never consensual, not least of all because a child cannot give informed consent. Adults also have power over children. But aside from the questions of power and consent, people who desire children sexually are sick and evil. There is no “good” way to molest a child. It is always rape. It is always harmful to that child and is one of the worst things that can happen to someone. The world would be a much better place if the people who did such things were never born.

Consent cannot be solidly established in cases where one relative has power over another. As I mentioned before, if a 35 year old woman has to move back in with her father, and is dependent on him, then any consent she gives to a sexual relationship would questionable at best. She knows in her heart what she wants, but if the answer to the question of whether she is consenting or not means the difference between having a roof over her head, or not – then that's likely to influence her answer.

Relationships between relatives do not always have a power differential though. You asked whether there ever comes a point where there is no power differential. The same question can be asked of ANY relationship. Since most sexual relationships are not abusive, the clear answer is YES. Or the answer is that the differential is not always relevant, especially when it is small. Does a 32 year old have power over their 30 year old sibling? Sometimes, in some families, but far from always. Normal people of this age are independent adults.

Why would two relatives choose to have sex together? For the same reasons any two people might. Some are genuinely attracted to each other. For others sex is a manifestation of emotional intimacy expressed physically. Others are simply promiscuous people who don't have qualms about getting their rocks off with each other if it is convenient. Still other people do it for reasons that I can't hope to guess. People do things for their own reasons. It can be argued that these are bad reasons, or that they are not an excuse for incest, consensual or not, because it is always wrong no matter what. This is a separate issue from the matter of consent though.

As I mentioned before, consensual adult incest is both socially and legally prohibited. A sexual relationship between unrestricted partners may be kept discreet, but it won't be an absolute secret in most cases. Not so when it comes to a relationship between people where knowledge of that relationship can see them sent to prison.

In many ways this is much the same way as it was for homosexuals 100 years ago. Homosexuality existed then, but it was kept an absolute secret under threat of legal and social catastrophe. Oscar Wilde was sent to prison under hard labor for being gay. Alan Turing was subjected to barbaric hormonal experiments intended to curb his desires, and which resulted in his suicide. I mention this not to claim some moral equivalency between consensual adult incest and consensual adult homosexuality, but to point out that back in those days, the idea of consensual homosexuality was also considered ludicrous. The argument that the sex was consensual was dismissed out of hand and those found to be involved in homosexual sex were severely punished. Therefore gay men and women went to great lengths to protect their identities from discovery. So to with consensual incest today.

Unlike homosexuality, incest is not a fundamental sexual identity. If a brother and sister have sex together, it isn't because they are unable to form sexual bonds with anyone else. A gay man is a gay man. He is interested in sex with other men. He is not interested in sex with women. But a brother or sister who has sex with their sibling is not precluded from pursuing more socially acceptable relationships with others.

Why is this important? Because it is far easier to conceal a brief sexual affair, or even an ongoing relationship, than it is one's fundamental nature. Gay people were under the threat of being “outed” back then. They still are in some circles. A brother and sister who occasionally sleep together, not so much.

If you want to believe that there is no such thing as consensual incest between equal adults, then that's fine. It is very unlikely that you'll ever be put in a position where you'll deal with the question personally. Those of us who have experienced it will go right on living our lives, in secret, behind closed curtains and locked doors.

 

[Hans101]

No, it's not a problem, because 'consensual' incest is still not a real-world thing. (It is not uncommon for abuse victims to have been convinced, groomed or manipulated into believing themselves complicit, but that's not the same thing as genuine 'consent.') Trying to assume away the consensus of basically an entire profession that has vastly more credibility than you do isn't convincing.

Reality isn't defined by the consensus of experts.

The existence of incest that is abusive or without real consent does not prove the absence of incest that is positive and consensual. These are two very different things.

Or to put it another way, the existence of rape and rape victims does not mean that all sex is rape. Rape and consensual sex are two very different things.

It is possible to be adamantly opposed to rape in all forms and simultaneously in favor of normal consensual sex among willing adults. The same is true of incest.

To say that people who have known each other their entire lives and who usually have close emotional bonds with each other will never ever find themselves in bed together through mutual consent just doesn't make sense. The social taboos and legal prohibitions against such sex will mean it is atypical, and well hidden when it does occur. But this does not mean such sex is non-existent.