A theory concerning male dominance.

[Black_Bird]

The following is pure theory and conjecture.

When a child is brought into this world, the most important building blocks from which his or her personality developes are the behaviors which he or she observe in the parents. Homes in which the mother and father live harmoniously tend to produce children who are more self-confident, law abiding, and productive. Homes in which the parents are constantly at odds, or worse, argueing, tend to produce children who have little self respect, little respect for the law, and are not as productive.

Perhaps in the natural evolution of human society there were families in which men and women were equals as well as families in which men were dominant over women. The families where men were dominant would thrive where as the families where men and women were equal would fail, as the first would produce children who were more confident in their skills, while the second would produce children who lacked respect for leadership. The social mores of the successful societies in which men were dominant would filter down to us through the ages and would remain the same up until the industrial revolution.

The fact that we can now attempt to achieve equality between the sexes is, I think, a sign that we as human beings are evolving. Although the revolution/evolution is not quick enough for some, in comparison with the amount of time spent as a male dominated society, we are evolving socially very fast into a society in which the sexes are equal.

To know where we are going, we also need to know where we have been. While I refuse to believe that this change in western society is in anyway "wrong" or "unnatural", I do think we are seeing the affects of this change today with increased crime rates and high divorce rates. What could be the next step? There is an answer... maybe time will tell.

 

[CeceliaSkye]

Black Bird, have you read any of Robert Bly's stuff? He talks about the problem of the missing Father or male mentor in the lives of boys... He speaks of this absense actually beginning with the industrial revolution when Fathers left the homes to work else where... We can see this male absense has escalated in the last 30-40 years.
Please clear something up for me though, if you would.. Are you saying the problems in the home with our youth are a result of the male not being dominating enough?
Or is it more from the Male role being absent or diminished from the family?

 

[Black_Bird]

Black Bird, have you read any of Robert Bly's stuff? He talks about the problem of the missing Father or male mentor in the lives of boys... He speaks of this absense actually beginning with the industrial revolution when Fathers left the homes to work else where... We can see this male absense has escalated in the last 30-40 years.
Please clear something up for me though, if you would.. Are you saying the problems in the home with our youth are a result of the male not being dominating enough?
Or is it more from the Male role being absent or diminished from the family?

No... it actually has to do with conflict in the home, or rather, the lack of defining roles for the mother and father to fill. Both parents being equal creates a potential for power struggles: Men want to maintain their grip on dominance, so they resort to less then acceptable means (abuse) and women want to be equal with the men, so they resort to manipulation. If one, or both, of the parents were raised in similar (broken) households, the psychological demons from their experience is carried over into the life of the child.

Something does need to happen to change this. One possibility is the total redefining of what it means to be male and female.

I haven't read anything by Robert Bly. I'm not borrowing anything from anybody in particular.

 

[Cheyenne]

Please clear something up for me though, if you would.. Are you saying the problems in the home with our youth are a result of the male not being dominating enough?
Or is it more from the Male role being absent or diminished from the family?

Same question here, only I'd like to know if you are blaming "increased crime rates and high divorce rates" on lack of males dominating us females, too? It sure sounds like that is what you said.

 

[SINthysist]

My insanity of the day is, black bird are you african american? I am responding on a racially motivated course today, part of my sensitivity trainng.

I am staying home to raise my daughter? Am I destroying Western Civilization? And if so, will I get some sort of plaque or monument?

Didn't fathers used to work like a gazillion hours a day and weren't home most of the time anyway?

 

[Black_Bird]

Same question here, only I'd like to know if you are blaming "increased crime rates and high divorce rates" on lack of males dominating us females, too? It sure sounds like that is what you said.

I think my other post clears this up *a little bit*... but a little bit isn't enough.

Increased crime rates are the result of an unstable home's affect on a child. The child grows up with no respect for herself and no respect for her parents; this lack of respect becomes a disregard for the safety of others and disregard to authority of any type.

High Divorce rate is a result of men and women being raised to conform to the traditional roles established, while trying to live in a world where those roles are no longer valid. Men are still being taught to be dominant and then are being forced to re-evaluate their roles... It's a confusing situation. It's like being taught Cobol and then being forced learn how to program in C++ on the fly; there are going to be problems.

 

[SINthysist]

C++ doesn't count as a programming language!

It's Eubonics for computer geeks...

 

[Black_Bird]

I am staying home to raise my daughter? Am I destroying Western Civilization? And if so, will I get some sort of plaque or monument?

Didn't fathers used to work like a gazillion hours a day and weren't home most of the time anyway?

I'm not preaching here... I'm just rambling off a theory. No one is singlehandedly destroying Western Civ... but I do believe that it will have to change to survive. I'm not pointing fingers, or at least don't mean to be; I apologize if it seems so. I'm just putting an idea out there to see if I can't get a few people to think.

 

[SINthysist]

I agree in general with your outline of thoughts there. But remember, I'm the one who has only knee-jerk replies to all situations. Any one of my detractors will assure you I am void of any thought processes!

 

[Cheyenne]

High Divorce rate is a result of men and women being raised to conform to the traditional roles established, while trying to live in a world where those roles are no longer valid.

Are you sure it isn't just the opposite?

How many kids these days do you know who are being raised with the belief that daddy is the head of the household, is the breadwinner, and makes all important decisions? And that daddy does all that while mommy stays home to turn out babies and take care of them and the house, of course. Is this what you think parents are teaching their kids? Old, established "tradtional roles?"

Disclaimer: PromiseKeeper families excluded from the above analysis, of course. That's a whole separate thread.

 

[Black_Bird]

Are you sure it isn't just the opposite?

Being raised to believe that men and women are equals and living in a world that thinks the opposite? Hmm...

How many kids these days do you know who are being raised with the belief that daddy is the head of the household, is the breadwinner, and makes all important decisions? And that daddy does all that while mommy stays home to turn out babies and take care of them and the house, of course. Is this what you think parents are teaching their kids? Old, established "tradtional roles?"

Females or Male?

I think I now know why we aren't seeing eye to eye on this - I'm looking at this from a male's perspective, while you are taking a female's... which makes sense... *shrugs*

Young males are still being taught the traditional male role: "Got to be agressive! The more women you fuck the more of a man you are! *REAL* men do this, that, and the other..." and similar bull shit. You are right - women are being taught more and more that they are men's equal... the combination of the two leads to interesting situations.

 

[Black_Bird]

SINthysist

Sorry for not answering everything in your post, but as you can see, I'm busy trying to keep my foot from entering my mouth already!

I'm not going to touch that discussion while this one is still brewing...

 

[Cheyenne]

Being raised to believe that men and women are equals and living in a world that thinks the opposite? Hmm...

Yup! That's exactly what I meant.

Maybe the problem is women raised like me meeting men raised like you.

Let me add that I'll do everything I can to influence my nieces and nephew to be raised seeing men and women as equals. I have no children of my own, but I can do that much for the next generation. I think by my life's example, I already am.

 

[Black_Bird]

Yup! That's exactly what I meant.

Maybe the problem is women raised like me meeting men raised like you.

Huh? Actually - I *wasn't* raised to disrespect women. You are jumping to conclusions.

 

[Cheyenne]

Huh? Actually - I *wasn't* raised to disrespect women. You are jumping to conclusions.

?? I didn't say you were.

Aren't we still talking about your first post and then how you clarified it after I suggested I thought the problem was opposite of what you posted? You said men are raised in the traditional roles and go out to a world which considers men and women to be equals. I said I was raised to consider men and women equals, and find more problems in a world that still believes in the tradtional roles in many cases.

You said the opposite of your theory was this:

Being raised to believe that men and women are equals and living in a world that thinks the opposite? Hmm...

 

[Black_Bird]

Oh... I'm sorry. I misunderstood.

Might *both* situations be happening? It is pretty damn complex; maybe I've over simplified it too much...

I suppose the important thing to understand is that, as a culture, we are going through a period of transition. We are no where near finishing that transition, and it isn't going to be smooth sailing all the way.

 

[Dhalgren]

Though men and women should be thought of as equals; they are indeed very different.

Often the same rules don’t apply..
And yes, double standards exist.

That said..

In a household where men had the last word…there would be less arguments in the home.

Okay..so the children in this household hear less arguments and therefore be likely to have more respect for themselves…

Is this what you are saying?

How about a household where the woman is the dominant one and the man knows not to argue; wouldn’t these children grow up hearing less arguments, too.. and therefore have just as much respect for themselves as group A children?

How about then reducing the point of this theory.. to where if the family is a solid unit and does not have disagreements; you will produce happy, well adjusted children…who are less likely to do crime...

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

I do not think that the industrial revolution has had quite the effect some think with regards to the father being out of the home; from the time we were hunter/gatherers the male has been out of the home more than the females. Indeed, if early humans were more like other animals, the father may not have been around at all after the mating (but I doubt it).

Even where we went to more of an agricultural society the fathers spent more time out of the home (working in the fields, etc) than the mothers. One thing did happen with the industrial revolution that did not happen as much before; mothers spent more time out of the home than before.

As for male dominance; I think it is both learned behavior and genetic.

Crime amongst male teenagers has various reasons, but if you want to talk about parental factors, then discuss the absence of both parents from the home to one degree or another, and if you want to blame fathers, then blame those fathers who are totally absent from their childrens upbringing. I was not there for all of my child's upbringing, but I was there as much as physically possible, and she always knew that I loved her and always had her in my mind and heart. I think that a little quality time is better than just being there all the time and not taking interest in your children.

FWIW, my daughter wears the pants in her family.

 

[Topher]

Evolutionary Psychology?

What is its rôle in your theory? Don't you think that the rôles that male apes and female apes play are hardwired to some extent, as STG implied ("genetics").

It's not that I think we must abide by our genes, but I think the parts that men and women play are somewhat biologically predetermined.

 

[Cutie Lillie]

I had three thoughts about this...

1) That learning to be a succesful adult in this world doesn't mean growing up without the reality of dissagreements. In fact, life is full of differences of opinion, choice, wants. But the key thing is a child 'learning' how to effectively deal with those moments. To see adults acting like 'adults' when they disagree and working out the disagreements in a healthy and positive manner. Suppressing this reality of life by any kind of dominance is unhealthy for children. There may be no crime from one but would you like a child not be able to master a negotiation, or learn the ability of speaking their mind while respecting the positions of others? I think its important that parents do disagree, but not have temper tantrums or dominating shouting matches... then 'they' are the ones who need to 'grow up'.

2) I think that learning to respect leadership comes with the lessons of learning to respect leadership that earns respect. And that is something that parents can directly teach their children. Leadership is not gender oriented and children are very capable of understanding that... but its valuable to teach them that not all leaders deserve respect, yet you do need to learn to live successfullly by showing 'some' level of respect...just as a tatitcal way of dealing with the 'power' abusers of the world. And we all have worked for one of them, I bet, in our lifetimes.

and lastly....

3) I wish that someone would teach the children of the world about the realities of parenthood. That having a child is not like having a dress up baby doll, or someone who will 'love' them cause they feel so alone in the world. What breaks my heart are seeing so many children having children, and people who have no parental skills having multiple children that they cannot afford in both monetary and emotional ways. It still amazes me how often I see mature, loving adults who are unable to have children ache for one, and some very inmature, selfish adults end up with four, five and all their offspring worry me about becoming a statistic. As they have no one to 'be' the 'adult' in their lives and they are off running making up a life as they see fit ..modeled on TV or school gossip.


*whew* OK.. off soapbox. But interesting idea.. thanks for letting me rev up my grey matter this morning . LOL

 

[JaymesBlond007]

Originally posted by Cutie Lillie
To see adults acting like 'adults' when they disagree and working out the disagreements in a healthy and positive manner

Oh! Like here at Lit, right!?

 

[Cutie Lillie]

*LOL*

LOL !! Oh Jaymes!!!! *sigh* *HUG*

A girl can only hope! LOL

 

[CeceliaSkye]

I feel this generation has reached almost a crisis level.. It's time both genders took responsibilty for healing the generational wounds that have been passed down... More and more men and women that I have come across are becoming acutely aware of what no longers serves them personally, as well as what no longer serves the "Tribe" or Society as a whole...
It is not an easy time to live in. We are evolving. We are outgrowing our present conditions. There is no guide book for where mankind <or womankind> is headed.
For so many generations people have been blindly trying to heal their own stuff through their kids. Can anyone else relate to that? I know my parents did it unknowingly.
Blackbird, I want to thankyou for the threads you offer here at Lit... I think it is so important that people begin to think outside of the "box"....

 

[SINthysist]

Black Bird

That makes you smarter than me.

No great accomplishment...

 

[Black_Bird]

Blackbird, I want to thankyou for the threads you offer here at Lit... I think it is so important that people begin to think outside of the "box"....

Nope - I don't have anything more to add to this thread! But I will thank you for your compliment!