A Question to Online DSers

[James Blandings]

Asked, sincerely, without judgement:
It is obvious that there are many things that those with Real Life experience can teach those who have only had online relationships, but what, if anything, can those of us who have extensive RL experience learn from those who have only practiced BDSM online?

 

[blueyedheartbandit]

Online/R/l...the difference....

Well, to be honest, being an online sub is hard work. i mean come on, we can't see our Master/Mistress, we don't know how hard hard is or how soft soft is when being struck. something anyone could learn from an online sub is this, there is no limit to your imagination. Be descriptive in your efforts be it r/l or online. Think of it this way, you are in a r/l scene with your submissive, they are bound and blindfolded and you want to heighten their feelings, you could describe what is about to take place in a low-pitched stage whisper, use detail...its the same way with online. Of the two, i would have to say i prefer r/l *cheeky grin* but online has its merits too. You learn patience, to use your imagination more deeply just to name two things. i dont know if that helps, but its my thoughts

There is no sound quite like the silence before her cries rent the air as the whip caresses her back....

 

[HotXBunz]

Patience!

I have zero, zip, I mean no online experience but I get the impression that many who do would love the opportunity to go RL.

 

[cymbidia]

Re: Online/R/l...the difference....

Well, to be honest, being an online sub is hard work. i mean come on, we can't see our Master/Mistress, we don't know how hard hard is or how soft soft is when being struck.

Yes. It's all pretend. It's all simply fantasy. There's no reality component at all.

something anyone could learn from an online sub is this, there is no limit to your imagination.

With all due respect, in my experience, i believe firmly that one needs far more creativity in real life BDSM encounters then in those of the online type.

In real life, one cannot be simultaneously keeping an eye on the new Law and Order while also being flogged or orgasming or kneeling to obey her online Master.

In real life, one must learn to express, to vocalize, to offer suggestion and comment and lovingly stated criticisms - all deeds requiring an agile and creative mind - to her partner so that thier energy and the flow of what lies between them isn't compromised. One cannot log off to go attend to a sudden crisis if one gets bored. One cannot pretend to be wet, pretend to be writhing in agony/pleasure, and one certainly cannot pretend to take 30 cane strokes and then cum loudly and with *just* the right amount of hair tossing.

In real life, the reality between the partners is a thing of heat and bodies and sweat and gasping cries, not something of two-dimensional prettied-up words on a screen.

In real life farts happen, and knotted calves, and sudden urges to pee - and those have to be dealt with creatively by both partners.

In real life one faces her parter and works with him to make the magic happen, it's not just an excercise in solitary mental masturbation as it is with online play.

Online play is good to learn about one's fantasies.
Online play is good to begin to explore into the depths of one's needs.
Online play can become a crutch and drug, though, all too easily and all too often, especially for those without much real life experience. Such people think what they're doing is BDSM but, honestly, one cannot actually "do" BDSM until and unless both partners are in the same room, eye to eye, breathing the same air, skins touching. Then it can become the glorious sharing we call BDSM. Until then, it's simply long distance shared masturbatory fantasy.

My opinion only, of course. I know onliners see it differently. How could they not and continue to play thier games as they do?

 

[KillerMuffin]

The Allegory of the Monitor

I discovered a cave where people sat and stared at a large blinking monitor. Mystified, I crossed into this cave to see what it was that these people were entranced with. As I moved deeper in the cave, I could see that there was not one group of people, but three.

As I came to the first group, I asked what it was they were looking at. "I see the activity that I have never done but in fantasy and I wish to know more," said they.

Then why were they but looking and not doing? "I am comfortable in my couch and I have the others with me to explore the fantasy as it is," said they.

I continued on into the cave and to the second group. They did not stare at the large, blinking monitor. Instead they stared at the blackness of the wall. I asked what it was they were looking at. "I see the activity that I have always done," said they.

But there is nothing on the wall to see. "I see my experience. There is nothing else to see as nothing could compare," said they.

As I ventured deeper into the cave I came to the third group. They watched both the large, blinking monitor and the blackness of the wall. I asked what it was they were looking at. "I see the activity that I have always done and I see the fantasy that might yet be my reality," said they.

How could they see what had not happened? "It is not what has not happened that I see, it is the knowledge that I gain from seeing what is and what wants to be both within myself," said they.

And so I sat amongst them, dripping my vanilla ice cream on their leather couch, and discussed many things once I promised to quit reading Plato.

 

[blueyedheartbandit]

Re: Re

Well Cymbidia, in a way what you say is very true, there is quite a bit of difference between online and real life. I have one question for you though, have you ever tried it online? I mean no disrespect or anything like that, quite the opposite. I have been a real life submissive for over 5 years, and i have also been an online sub for around a year. Unless you have tried it, you cannot fully understand what it takes. It is more than a masterbatory fantasy, it is more than a game. Sure, there are those who choose to make it such, but then isn't that true also with real life? I have met a few so called Dom/mes in real life that would make any sub with any kind of experience laugh them right out of a scene or dungeon...as with online.
When you are true to the life style, you are just that, true to it. When doing it online, you take it to a different path, your Master/Mistress expects that what they say is obeyed to the letter, and in some cases (i won't say all) it is done exactly as they say.
Online can be a wonderful experience for someone who is searching out their path here, and i do agree with you when you say it can be a crutch, but cut the online's some slack...it can be a marvelous tool and a great beginning.
I hope i have not offended anyone, that is not my intention, and as with everything, its just an opinion

 

[cymbidia]

Re: Re: Re

Well Cymbidia, in a way what you say is very true, there is quite a bit of difference between online and real life. I have one question for you though, have you ever tried it online? I mean no disrespect or anything like that, quite the opposite. I have been a real life submissive for over 5 years, and i have also been an online sub for around a year. Unless you have tried it, you cannot fully understand what it takes. It is more than a masterbatory fantasy, it is more than a game.

With all due respect to you, blueyedheartbandit (What should we call you? Your nick is WAY too long for easy typing! ), ive been a sexual submissive for many many more years than some people who post here have even been alive. I got my first personal computer in 1991 and went online before IRC even existed, before chat rooms, before there was much form or substance to the net. I saw BDSM'ers coming together to exult and rejoice at finally finding others like us with whom we could talk and exchange ideas. For the first time in history, we weren't confined to the small group who knew us in our local geographic area - we had the whole world of kinksters to choose from with reagrd to friendships.

And i watched the rise of chatroom BDSM, too, from the inside and, in recent years, from the outside as a more and more vocal critic of the phenomena.

I spent a year in a place called BayMOO that one had to telnet into - in a BDSM environment there, as a sub, learning about a worldwide BDSM community. Later i spent a couple years in a place called Chatropolis, in a chatroom called The Dungeon. Woven in and out through my first six or so years online, was time spent in the IRC universe - again, always, in BDSM settings.

Yes. I've spent time online, in chat rooms. It hasn't been the 30 years i have behind me as a practicing BDSM submissive, no. But it's been a handful of years, on and off.

I still maintain that there are so many pretenders online that they do more harm than good for the new tender souls going to find information to ease the ache for the something else[ that's been missing from thier sexuality.

The chatroom mentality fosters all kinds of bad habits with regard to how we have historically treated each other in the lifestlye. It gives people totally false impressions of what a power exchange relationship is, what it consists of, how to *do* one. Chat room BDSM is mostly bullshit posturing, blueyedheartbandit, for all the prettying-up you want to do to it.

I've been in both places.
That's my opinion.

And here, in this place, we deal with issues that have to do with skin-to-skin BDSM. There are a million million places for chatroom type stuff and relatively few for reality-based BDSM.

When you are true to the life style, you are just that, true to it. When doing it online, you take it to a different path, your Master/Mistress expects that what they say is obeyed to the letter, and in some cases (i won't say all) it is done exactly as they say.

You're talking about genuine BDSM in an online environment. I say: great! We all need more of that! Too bad it's so rare!

You gotta admit that the huge giant vast majority of online chat room type BDSM is just fantasy and illusion as compared to that which we practice in our day-to-day and skin-to-skin lives. C'mon...you know it's true. Most of the chat room, online BDSM stuff is crap fantasy play that bears precious little resemblence to anything any of us have ever done in a skin-to-skin BDSM relationship.

Online can be a wonderful experience for someone who is searching out their path here, and i do agree with you when you say it can be a crutch, but cut the online's some slack...it can be a marvelous tool and a great beginning.

It can be. It has been. It will be again.

But i can't cut them any slack because if i do, they'll move in here and think that this, too, is a fine place in which to play thier fantasy games.

Online learning is the best way to begin to identify who you are and what you need with regard to BDSM in your life. It's a great tool with which to do some fantasy play, to begin to define what interests you and what does not.

After that, if you remain online, you're lost in a non-real world and you're using it a s a crutch and a drug just like any junkie does.

One has to get offline and go do this within the embrace of a partner for it to be real.

That's the way i see it, anyway.

Thank you for such kindly and interesting remarks from the other side of the debate, blueyedheartbandit. You're a credit to BDSM'ers everywhere.

 

[Ebonyfire]

My take on things...

Here I go again....

I am not going to diss anyone who can only do BDSM online. I started online, and after a bit, I found I had to take the bull by the horns and get some RL experience. I have never regretted that action.

I do a lot of training online, and it is a lot of hard work. I do training and play with my subs in RL, and it is a lot of work ALSO. I am developing a 24/7 Mistress/slave relationship online AND RL and it is the hardest thing I have ever done in my entire life.

It is all hard work. I think most if not all of the Dom/mes who have done both will agree with me on that point.

I think that I can learn angles of play I may not have thought of, because it comes from someone who plays very different from me, for diffeent reasons, and from subs and Dom/mes who have very different relationship(s) than I do.

In short, I feel it's all good. If it works for you, then do it. My kink may not be your kink, and vice versa; but so what?

Ebony

 

[jewel_GR]

deleted

 

[blueyedheartbandit]

re: Cambidia

I do have to agree with you there, you have made alot of valid points, and I have to agree that the number of posers far outweighs the number of real lifers. I have been fortunate to find a few people in chat that merit the title of Dom/me and count myself lucky to have found that many lol. By the way, you can call me blue, its much easier I just hope that others who are searching for that part of themselves, whether it is to Dominate or submit find a helping hand out there, and i have told many of my online friends (both Dom/me and sub) about this site. All of you are great here, it's nice to have some place where people are experienced and true to themselves and each other. I hope to meet more of you here....Be well to you all and thanks...

 

[cymbidia]

Re: re: Cambidia

By the way, you can call me blue, its much easier

Nope. We can't call you "blue" since we already have one here. How about "heart" or "bandit"? We don't have either of those yet.

If i may offer a small suggestion? Whatever portion of your nick you decide to use, if you'd sign your posts with it for awhile we could get used to calling you that name. That would save us looking at that whole long nick every time we want to reply to one of your posts and scratching our heards in puzzlement over which part of it to use.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Long position statement...apologies in advance

I still maintain that there are so many pretenders online that they do more harm than good for the new tender souls going to find information to ease the ache for the something else that's been missing from thier sexuality.

But, we all also know that the same is true in real life--there are predators and pretenders everywhere. The 'net may allow them to flourish more easily, but it's not an exclusively internet-based problem. We wouldn't suggest that nobody should go to a public fetish event because a psycho might use them as a hunting ground, would we?

You gotta admit that the huge giant vast majority of online chat room type BDSM is just fantasy and illusion as compared to that which we practice in our day-to-day and skin-to-skin lives. C'mon...you know it's true. Most of the chat room, online BDSM stuff is crap fantasy play that bears precious little resemblence to anything any of us have ever done in a skin-to-skin BDSM relationship.It can be. It has been. It will be again.

To the extent that a chatroom based connection becomes a real relationship, it seems to me that this is hugely variable--at least the possibilities are wildly divergent. Granted, chatrooms foster silly protocols & surface level conversation. Granted, the 'net fosters anonymity and thus encourages posturing, trolling, and predatory behavior. However, the 'net also allows people without the money to travel and without local access to information--much less like-minded people--to exchange information and make connections.

And those connections between people, those real meetings of mind and emotion which make for meaningful relationships of all kinds, DO develop online and across distance, at least some of the time and for some people. I know this because I consider you one of the most important people in my life, b, and I've never even shaken your hand. If *that* is possible, isn't it at least thinkable that the *emotional* side of a BDSM relationship could actually develop in even an unlikely environment?

I'm not gonna call you an elitist cym--but I'll be honest and tell you that part of the reason I'm *not* calling you one is because you're a friend. You've got a lot of years of incredible live-skin experience with this, love, and much of it had to be kept secret for fear of much worse than embarassment. You have every right and reason to be proud of the strength, self-knowledge, and dedication that took, and takes. And to see all of that devalued and even made trivial by posturing and exploitive half-truths online has got to burn your ass something fierce. I understand why you're so turned off to chatrooms, b, but I also think there's a tendency (and not just in you) to group all online environments into one category. As we RL/lifestylers ought to know better than anyone, labels are destructive and almost never accurate when applied to particular *individuals.*

If you do nothing but post single lines of "Kneel at my feet, slave girl!" and "Yes, Master DarkFyre, oh Lord of my kingdom. Anything to serve Thee..." you aren't going to develop much of a relationship of *any* kind, are you? However, many people spend weeks/months/years exchanging email, having real-time conversations, talking on the phone, and developing something more real. I just hope that we don't lose sight of them, or of those *trying* to connect in real ways.

But i can't cut them any slack because if i do, they'll move in here and think that this, too, is a fine place in which to play their fantasy games.

(I'm so anal retentive, I actually edited your post, b, to fix a typo in the word "their." No *wonder* I drive my students nuts, huh?)

The danger of accepting and really, truly, honest-to-gods believing generalizations about what "online BDSM is like" is that in doing so, we automatically marginalize people who honestly seek what we have and what we know. They may feel the connection to each other, seek the sensations and the emotion, and be communicating as openly and honestly as possible--but feel as though there's no place for them to develop beyond chatrooms. Onliners trying to learn the "real deal" need somewhere to turn; skin-to-skin people need a place that isn't caught up in "W/we" protocols and other such non-issues that we don't give a damn about; people just getting the fantasy of online need to know there's more out there and that it doesn't look like The Dungeon when there are bodies in proximity to each other.

That's a lot to lose by freezing out onliners. Thus, for us in this forum, it's a real tightrope walk, dealing with online BDSM. This is *most* true, I think, for the moderators. At the end of the day, we're the ones who have to set the guidelines, monitor the conversation, remove the off-topic posts/threads, and take the heat from both sides of EVERY disagreement in the Forum.

So, here's what I think RL players can learn from onliners:
Tolerance, acceptance of diversity, and how to lead gracefully without alienating those we would make our students, proteges, and friends.

Sorry for the ramble, everyone. That's been brewing in me for a while. Much love to all, and a big to anyone who actually finishes this behemoth.

 

[cymbidia]

You're right, R.
~grump grump grump grump~
I don't think i could have heard this from anyone but you, either.
I love you.
You're incredibly important in my life.





I think, boys and girls, that i'm almost to "need a Lit break" time. I haven't taken one since about New Year's and that's a long stretch for me. I *do* have an exciting (read: illicit, immoral, highly kinked) mini-vacation planned sans computer to Colorado on June 19th-24th (1) but i'm pretty sure i should give myself a little time-out here before then, don't you think?

All those in favor, say "AY"...









(1) R and Muff, gotta set up some safe call protocols with you for this thing, okay? Remind me...

 

[KillerMuffin]

I must be chopped liver. That's all I can figure out. I mean the post was perfectly clear. Sparklingly even.


Ris, you are the soul of diplomacy. Of course, I'm rather rude. I just called cymbi a snob to her face, deep, abiding friendship or not. If you can't show your ass to your friends, who can you show your ass to?


Hahahaha! Risia missed one! Risia missed one! Check the top quote, sugar.


Group hug?

 

[cymbidia]

Muff?
You and R...
I love you both for real - and you know it.




And - ack! A snob?
Uh. Well. Gee. Not always...surely?


So is this a vote for me taking a little Lit break?
Hmmm. If i do, maybe i'll call y'all on occasion. Would that be a motive in your voting, btw?

 

[KillerMuffin]

If you need peace of mind and it's not coming here, then you need a break.

And yes, you can call. I'll be up for a while. You, too, R., if you're ever in the mood.

 

[James Blandings]

There have been a number of very eloquent replies to my question, describing what people like about online BDSM ,or have learned online, but my question remains unanswered. Risia made a valiant attempt at it, but all of the things she listed, toleration, acceptance of diversity, etc. are tenets of RL BDSM as well.
So again, I ask, and I'll rephrase in case my intent wasn't clear: What can *I*, with a long history of RL experience, learn about BDSM from *you*, an online only BDSMer, that is unique to the online experience, and of possible benefit to me in RL?

 

[KillerMuffin]

Actually, both Ebonyfire and I answered your original question.

 

[James Blandings]

Actually, both Ebonyfire and I answered your original question.

With all due respect, to my mind, you have not.
I can, and do, learn techniques and develop new ideasand fantasies from my RL peers to an extent that I can not online, for the simple reason that if my RL friend "Joe" shows me a new toy and how it is used, that is of infinitely more value than reading someone say "And now I raise the dreaded device over my little ones quivering flesh".
My purpose in this thread is not to trash online BDSM, but to see where the experiences of those who practice it have value to those of us in the RL community.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Teach me to be obscure.

This is what I said:

"It is not what has not happened that I see, it is the knowledge that I gain from seeing what is and what wants to be both within myself," said they.


This is what it means.

You learn from them by answering their questions.

Is that clear enough for you?

 

[James Blandings]

Teach me to be obscure.

This is what I said:

"It is not what has not happened that I see, it is the knowledge that I gain from seeing what is and what wants to be both within myself," said they.


This is what it means.

You learn from them by answering their questions.

Is that clear enough for you?

Your point is clear, perhaps clearer than my question. When I speak of online BDSM, I don't mean when people with no real experience come to a board like this seeking knowledge. I agree that in that regard, the give and take benefit both parties. But I gain no more from them than I can from similar encounters at my local clubs, discussion groups, demos, etc. Most of the same questions I've been asked here, I've been asked face to face, so there is nothing uniquely "online" to that.
My question is about the experience of online relationships and chatroom play and what, if anything, can be learned from them that I might find valuable as someone in BDSM RL. And I have yet to read an answer to that question that I find satisfactory.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I must apologize for being bitchy. I am sorry about that and I will try to not do it again. You didn't deserve it.


The answer to the question of uniquely online BDSM is that you can only learn from that experience what uniquely online BDSM people bring. The problem is that there are few people who are articulate enough or have the wit and intelligence to give a good perspective on online BDSM.

Our current crop is a rather disappointing, if they're the norm. However, I may be wrong, but I think that Wicked Eve is an online only practitioner that would have a lot of insight that you may find interesting, even enlightening.

I guess, now that I've thought about it, that I could ask if you have learned anything from me. Have I gotten you to think about BDSM in a way that you might not have before? Has anything I've brought up, questioned, stated, or opined brought anything new to the way you think about BDSM?

 

[blueyedheartbandit]

Re: James....and online worth

Okay, so maybe i strayed a bit from your original question, but here are my thoughts on it....I know you have real life experience (from what you say ) have you ever tried it online? Doing BDSM online you learn a trust, trust that the one you are with either sub or Dom/me is real, you develop a bond that is gained over time. It's, well different than that of a r/l experience. As i stated before, you have to trust this person to be what and who they say they are, that just doesn't happen with the first meeting. as a sub i would hardly just drop down and worship at the feet of the first Dom/me who approached me and said "Kneel slave" whether it is online or r/l. We who do this online have value, have worth, we have much to teach as well. we teach you to be more vocul, to articulate clearly what it is you desire and want and need. i realize, of course, that you do this r/l as well (kind of a duh there) but it's differnt online. All i can tell you is try it out, give it a chance and see what you gain from it. If it isn't your cup of tea, then okay fine, but you will have answered your own question during your quest. I hope that helps somewhat............


Bandit

 

[Shadowsdream]

What I have learned from online interraction is that real time relationships between different Countries opens doors to more Dom/mes and submissives than most people realize.

Conversations in depth are very common online for a real time submissive and Dominant that know how to separate the chaff from the wheat. Yes even chat rooms can be wonderful places to teach Our reality as We are taught that behind many simpering submissives lies a true desire for more. Hearts are opened much quicker online, the pain and sorrow of every day life is shared much quicker online. The tears on the other side of the monitor are real as is the laughter.

Online is REAL and viable, as much so as telephone conversations and snail mail.

We are all online..no matter how the subject wishes to be seen through different eyes. Though the conversation in Lit is more about skin to skin and the hope of skin to skin..the medium is still online.

What can We who live real time BDSM learn from those online that We cannot learn in real time. Nothing IF We have real time already. EXCEPT perhaps how to see the real need many have and reach out Our hands to bring them into Our reality.

The toy I crossed an ocean for, came to me online..he searched for a Mistress strong enough to guide his intellect and control his body. he had many real time opportunities and experiences and deep roots in real time BDSM communities in his Country...through many months of hearing his tears and need, his good sides and his bad, a meeting between two Countries occurred. If I had of met him in real time first I may have only seen a young man ( too young for Me), said hello and dismissed him as a possiblity of being Mine. Now 3 years later his fantasy has become reality..and this toy is reality in a very human way!

Online opens doors to reality..that is the simplest way I can put it.
To dismiss its value and its depth is as dangerous as not recognizing the trollers and abusers.

This ramble probably didn't answer the qustion as it may have been meant to but it simply wrote itself as it needed to.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Ris, you are the soul of diplomacy.

*guffaw*
Um-hmm, that's me. Yep, you betcha.

Of course, I'm rather rude. I just called cymbi a snob to her face, deep, abiding friendship or not. If you can't show your ass to your friends, who can you show your ass to?

I try to only show my ass to the blind and the blindfolded.
But, I know what you mean--if we'd been on the phone, I would have given her a *much* rougher time of it, as she can well attest.

Hahahaha! Risia missed one! Risia missed one! Check the top quote, sugar.

SMARTASS! But, I'm gonna be a weasel and blame cym.
Damn it, b, learn to spell "their," will ya? Even an anal retentive like me can't catch 'em all!

Oh, and KM? Check your PMs, sugar.

James: I understand what you mean about tolerance (etc) being part of BDSM already, but I don't think that invalidates it as a *real* answer to your question. Sure, as abstract concepts they're part of the philosophy, but I think that interaction between RL BDSMers and the online variety offers a unique chance to "put our money where our mouths are" in terms of really interacting with people.

The online players are a way varied bunch in terms of the experience, ideas, and expectations that they bring to the table, much more so (it seems to me) than the RL people; this creates struggles in communicating, being inclusive, and trying to offer information and perspective without either looking down our collective nose at such chatroom players or holding our model up and the one and only way to be "real." And, I think KM adds an important next level to that--we learn about ourselves by having to articulate our thoughts, feelings, opinions, and experiences to an audience that *doesn't* know us intimately, and doesn't necessarily share a lot of common ground with us beyond the fantasy level.

What we learn from online D/sers is how to take our information and experience and offer them as what works for uswithout having to Dom/me everyone in the realm, train them to be as *we* would want them, in order to do so.

IMHO, of course.