A Question of Acess: Censorship or Prudence?

[Colleen Thomas]

You make it sound as if that information is only available on the internet.

Libraries also have these antique things called books. The nice thing about books is that you can take them home or over to the copy machine and copy the parts that are important. Then you can read the information without worrying about when your time on the library computer is going to run out and take the time to really understnd what you're reading.

I've never encountered a library that would refuse to request a book they didn't have from another library -- from the Library of Congress if necessary. The most an ineter-library loan request has cost me is $2.00.

Granted, waiting two months for information on the morning after pill is probbly not going to be terribly useful, but libraries have been providing free information and intertainment for yers befor ethey got internet connections. I assume most of them can still do so without using the internet.

No argument there are books on the subject Harold. But your library can have only so many volumes. The internet connects you instantly to more information than you can use on most subjects. The internet expands the ability your library has to give you access to information. And as you noted, you can get information on something your library dosen't have a book on, without the wait and minor expense involved in arrangeing an inter library loan.

If the information you are barring is time sensitive, and you don't happen to have a book on it, or that book is out, then you effectively have blocked the person from getting information that was avialable to them prior to the leave the filters on policy.

I haven't darkened the door of a library in many years. If I wanted to know something I just went out & got a book on it. That oprtion is no longer avialable to me. Now I can still go out and just look it up on the web. If I loose my computer, that option will no longer be available to me.

If a point comes where neither of my normal options is avialable I would like to think I can run down to the library and still get the information I want. I don't visit our library, but donate to it every year during their book drive. When the time comes that I need the resource our library is, I don't want to find it not able to help me because of filters. (a rather moot point since our library dosen't have computer terminals as of yet, but still)

-Colly

 

[coyotepondering]

The problem with the filters is that they ususally block more than just porn. It's not like they have a list of offending sites that some person is hand-entering and constantly updating in order to block pornography.

Actually, although this solution is keyword based there are exactly such solutions out there.

My library (I am a librarian) uses a black list and sites are broken down into things such as Religous, Nudity, Offensive Humor etc.... and you can choose which categories to turn off. We only block Sex Acts btw.

The down side? You can't keep up with all of them and you miss stuff. You miss all yahoo groups for example since blocking yahoo groups is all or none. You miss the newest or most obscure sites. But we get 99% and that's good enough for us. We make a serious effort to deter porn in an environment that children will be in without the invasive results of keyword filtering that block legitimate content.

 

[coyotepondering]

I'd agree with a filter that could be switched on and off at request by any adult user, or by any minor with adult supervision. A lot of legitimate research material, a lot of literature and artwork, necessary cultural tool, could easily be deemed as pornographic by some people.

I don't even want to mention medical applications - that's obvious. I could be writing an article on the adult movie industry. I could be looking for a job. I could be looking for the bulletin board of an erotic writers' community.

The people of Phoenix pay for the library, and the city has no right to censor the materials available to them, just as they have no right to take all the copies of The Bible, Philosophy in the Bedroom, Lolita, American Psycho and Harry Potter and burn them in a holy bonfire out in the back.

One of the reasons the Supreme Court has ruled in the US that CIPA was legal was that they felt that libraries could turn filters on and off for individual users at will. Of course its not really that simple. And the Supreme Court majority opinion said that it would revisit the issue if that supposition turned out to be wrong in the future.

An in interesting twist the ALA (american libraries association) fought CIPA tooth and nail in the courts and are now fighting to make the Supreme Court happy. Its crack baby. If they really wanted to kill CIPA they wouldn't switch filtering and let the Supreme Court come back and killl CIPA.

But, I suspect they know that public opinion is swinging against them on this.

 

[coyotepondering]

Libraries also have these antique things called books. The nice thing about books is that you can take them home or over to the copy machine and copy the parts that are important. Then you can read the information without worrying about when your time on the library computer is going to run out and take the time to really understnd what you're reading.

I've never encountered a library that would refuse to request a book they didn't have from another library -- from the Library of Congress if necessary. The most an ineter-library loan request has cost me is $2.00.

Actually, a few pieces of trivia about Interlibrary Loan.

Warning: I'm a professional librarian who deals with ILL every day.

More libraries are beginning to look at the economic viability of ILL. Basically it costs a fortune and libraries lose money hand over fist on it. In the past its been considered a worthwhile expense because of the value of getting rare research materials but these days more and more libraries are having trivial things like popcorn movies and harlequin paperbacks ordered by ILL. And rather than "make judgements" about this material libraries are cutting back on services instead because its easier for them to say "we're making a new rule" than "you shouldn't be ordering this crap from us that costs us $30 in labor and materials."

btw, that $2 it costs you may cost some one else $50 or more. Libraries can charge whatever they want and borrowing libraries that develop a reputation for not returning materials because they have deadbeat patrons (like the ones that abuse our system) end up being charged more and more because the lending library doesn't want to work with them any more.

 

[coyotepondering]

No argument there are books on the subject Harold. But your library can have only so many volumes. The internet connects you instantly to more information than you can use on most subjects. The internet expands the ability your library has to give you access to information. And as you noted, you can get information on something your library dosen't have a book on, without the wait and minor expense involved in arrangeing an inter library loan.

If the information you are barring is time sensitive, and you don't happen to have a book on it, or that book is out, then you effectively have blocked the person from getting information that was avialable to them prior to the leave the filters on policy.

I haven't darkened the door of a library in many years. If I wanted to know something I just went out & got a book on it. That oprtion is no longer avialable to me. Now I can still go out and just look it up on the web. If I loose my computer, that option will no longer be available to me.

If a point comes where neither of my normal options is avialable I would like to think I can run down to the library and still get the information I want. I don't visit our library, but donate to it every year during their book drive. When the time comes that I need the resource our library is, I don't want to find it not able to help me because of filters. (a rather moot point since our library dosen't have computer terminals as of yet, but still)

-Colly

Once again: warning, professional librarian, blah, blah, blah....

There's a ton of stuff not on the web or not available in a digestable way. Believe it or not there's no real substitute for a good reference collection yet, especially since many of these companies don't have electronic divisions and no one else collects the material they do.

Increasingly many of these publishers are investigating databases but even then they will be commercial and the best chance for many people to access them will be through the library since we can brokerage deals that will be more effecient for your tax dollars than an individual membership could be.

So, while the web is a great source of info for many people and many things - its far from universal. And its not an abstract question. A few days of working a reference desk will show that. Tragically, standards are falling. I see lots of people that will accept the answer they get from Google though I could show them in two minutes a far better print resource but the attitude is "screw it, this is good enough."

arg. Makes me want to beat my head into the wall.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Once again: warning, professional librarian, blah, blah, blah....

There's a ton of stuff not on the web or not available in a digestable way. Believe it or not there's no real substitute for a good reference collection yet, especially since many of these companies don't have electronic divisions and no one else collects the material they do.

Increasingly many of these publishers are investigating databases but even then they will be commercial and the best chance for many people to access them will be through the library since we can brokerage deals that will be more effecient for your tax dollars than an individual membership could be.

So, while the web is a great source of info for many people and many things - its far from universal. And its not an abstract question. A few days of working a reference desk will show that. Tragically, standards are falling. I see lots of people that will accept the answer they get from Google though I could show them in two minutes a far better print resource but the attitude is "screw it, this is good enough."

arg. Makes me want to beat my head into the wall.

I don't advocate google (or anything else) replacing books. I also recognize you can get as much misinformation as information from the web. I own my own reference library and believe me I know what a blessing it is to have facts you can rely on at your fingertips.

The web is a resource. Like most, it requires you to exercise some thought and is a minefield for those to gullible or lazy to cross reference. But it does provide a great deal of information you will not liekly be able to find at the library.

In a system like yours, where individual sites are black listed for sexual content, I am fine with that. I am far less sure of a system that blocks keywords. Especially when the same key word that keeps kids from seeing bignaturals.com may also keep women from gaining critcal information about breast cancer easily.

-Colly

 

[coyotepondering]

In a system like yours, where individual sites are black listed for sexual content, I am fine with that. I am far less sure of a system that blocks keywords. Especially when the same key word that keeps kids from seeing bignaturals.com may also keep women from gaining critcal information about breast cancer easily.

-Colly

We put off filtering internet for about two years because of that issue. We are all raring to go to filtering because "something has to be done" and I'm in a very socially conservative place.

But, oddly enough, I was the swing opinion on this. I'm one of the few librarians with a technical background (Unix server admin, programming, cable installation, blah, blah, blah) so they came to me and apparently I was the first one to actually explain to the high ups how keyword filtering and black lists actually worked.

After that they dumped all their plans and spent a few years evaluating black list options. Its been pretty good. Sure, some stuff still sneaks through but I'd rather let ten perverts get to their nurse fetish porn than block one site on cervical cancer.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Yes, that's a good option that I could easily live with.

Still, if I were conducting a research that would require me to access a blocked website, is there a possibility to go to the librarian and ask for a specific site or a list of sites to be unblocked temporarily on that one terminal?

 

[McKenna]

quote:
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Originally posted by McKenna
But what about in publicly funded places? Aren't libraries, in part, funded by my tax dollars? What's to stop them from filtering sites they think are inappropriate which are not pornographic, such as sites supporting muslim jihad, or the NRA, or "How to Build A Bomb.com". Where does it end?
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It ends where the community that elects the people who make the decisions and policy for the Library system rise up and vote them out of office -- or lynch them as circumstances dictate.
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The problem with censorship is that it is rarely imposed all at once. The preferred method is to institute rather mild measures and then relentlessly tighten the noose, tiny bit by tiny bit. No single iten is worth a big fight. However, the end result is strangulation of individual liberty.

JMHO.

Thank you R.Richard, you said this more eloquently than I could.

 

[McKenna]

~snip~

I'd rather let ten perverts get to their nurse fetish porn than block one site on cervical cancer.

Just out of curiosity, do you ask patrons to leave who are caught viewing porn or does your library do anything at all? Are there guidelines for librarians about what is acceptable content, and how to handle those who are viewing unacceptable content?

I realize your role as a librarian is not to babysit, so how are situations like this handled?

 

[coyotepondering]

Yes, that's a good option that I could easily live with.

Still, if I were conducting a research that would require me to access a blocked website, is there a possibility to go to the librarian and ask for a specific site or a list of sites to be unblocked temporarily on that one terminal?

In our system? yes. Its about a 5 minute process to unblock a site for a specific terminal and then at the end of the day it resets.

We in fact have a gentleman who does this everyday because he's doing research on erotic writing and needs access to the alt.sex.stories archives.

 

[coyotepondering]

Just out of curiosity, do you ask patrons to leave who are caught viewing porn or does your library do anything at all? Are there guidelines for librarians about what is acceptable content, and how to handle those who are viewing unacceptable content?

I realize your role as a librarian is not to babysit, so how are situations like this handled?

Essentially we frown on nudity and don't allow sex acts. I say frown on nudity becasue we do bend the rules for what appears to be art. Unofficially we ask ourselves "is this appropriate for childen and in public." Yes, the statue of David is naked but .....

And its not perfect. And for the more liberally minded librarians its horrible. But I'm a realist and we live in a very conservative place and these measures prevent the community from pressuring the board into more extreme draconic measures. And yes, this has almost happened before by way of the county commisioners holding our funding over our heads.

As for what happens to people....

The first time they are asked to leave for the day and we go over with them what was inappropriate and our guidelines are just in case they didn't understand from what they read.

The second time they are banned permanently and given an appeal form.

Most borderline cases that show an honest regret are let back in.

 

[amicus]

And such is the course of history when the 'grey' people rule.

Trying to remember...I think it was 'Russia House' with Sean Connery and Michelle Phieffer...and the Russian, Dante, who said, the 'grey people' killed my country.

I am sure you will never understand and certainly not agree, but the grey ones...those who administer...are the worst of all....

amicus....

 

[coyotepondering]

And such is the course of history when the 'grey' people rule.

Trying to remember...I think it was 'Russia House' with Sean Connery and Michelle Phieffer...and the Russian, Dante, who said, the 'grey people' killed my country.

I am sure you will never understand and certainly not agree, but the grey ones...those who administer...are the worst of all....

amicus....

Yeah, but someone has to administer, so what's the answer or is it just easier to avoid responsibility so that others can be blamed?

lol

 

[minsue]

If they're paying for filtering software, then they're wasting taxpayer money -- the built-in parental controls in Windows are sufficient to meet the reuirements of the law that they filter content for under-17 users.

Also, one minor correction:



He was NOT arrested for viewing child porn at the library. He was arrested for molesting a child and claimed to have downloaded child-porn at the library during the questioning. The arrest had nothing to do with the library's internet filtering or lack thereof.



Bandwidth savings and reduced exposure to malware attacks is a side-effect of blocking porn, not the purpose. However, the side-effect would be justification for banning Porn on it's own merits, IMHO.

Forcing them to permit unrestricted access to the Internet increases the cost of operating the internet service AND forces a higher investment in anti-virus/malware protection.

My apologies for incorrect information, WH. Now you know why I should never argue before 7am.

 

[Weird Harold]

More libraries are beginning to look at the economic viability of ILL. Basically it costs a fortune and libraries lose money hand over fist on it. In the past its been considered a worthwhile expense because of the value of getting rare research materials but these days more and more libraries are having trivial things like popcorn movies and harlequin paperbacks ordered by ILL. And rather than "make judgements" about this material libraries are cutting back on services instead because its easier for them to say "we're making a new rule" than "you shouldn't be ordering this crap from us that costs us $30 in labor and materials."

btw, that $2 it costs you may cost some one else $50 or more. Libraries can charge whatever they want and borrowing libraries that develop a reputation for not returning materials because they have deadbeat patrons (like the ones that abuse our system) end up being charged more and more because the lending library doesn't want to work with them any more.

Actually, I think the fees I've encountered for ILLs have been more to discourage frivolous borowing than a serious attempt to recover costs. I haven't encountered any fees in years, so the $2.00 figure has probably gone up due to inflation.

Actually, your comments about the cost of ILL's to libraries reminded me that I have canceled one ILL request because the lending library wanted a security deposit (actually a fairly outrageous security deposit) and the borrowing library had a policy of passing such fees on to the user.

ILL, for me, is a resource of last resort. I'll search used book stores and price special orders from new book stores (and the internet) before resorting to ILL. But at least I know that ILL is possible -- it isn't something that my local library system advertises heavily and I don't think most users aren't aware of it.

From a lifelong Library user, I'd like to just say thanks -- Librarians are special people and don't deserve the crap they sometime have to put up with from frustrated idiots.

 

[McKenna]

~snip~ From a lifelong Library user, I'd like to just say thanks -- Librarians are special people and don't deserve the crap they sometime have to put up with from frustrated idiots.

What he said.

As a student, my public and university library has saved my bacon more than once, (not to mention one or two librarians I know ) so ...thanks!

 

[minsue]

What he said.

As a student, my public and university library has saved my bacon more than once, (not to mention one or two librarians I know ) so ...thanks!

Hear hear!

 

[coyotepondering]

Actually, I think the fees I've encountered for ILLs have been more to discourage frivolous borowing than a serious attempt to recover costs. I haven't encountered any fees in years, so the $2.00 figure has probably gone up due to inflation.

Actually, your comments about the cost of ILL's to libraries reminded me that I have canceled one ILL request because the lending library wanted a security deposit (actually a fairly outrageous security deposit) and the borrowing library had a policy of passing such fees on to the user.

ILL, for me, is a resource of last resort. I'll search used book stores and price special orders from new book stores (and the internet) before resorting to ILL. But at least I know that ILL is possible -- it isn't something that my local library system advertises heavily and I don't think most users aren't aware of it.

From a lifelong Library user, I'd like to just say thanks -- Librarians are special people and don't deserve the crap they sometime have to put up with from frustrated idiots.

Yeah, there's no realistic way to recover costs without making it prohibitive for folks who really need it so it becomes exactly that and its a shame because most libraries would gladly do it 100% and eat the cost if a few folks didn't ruin it for everyone else.

 

[cddweller]

I'm more of a Darwinist when it comes to issues like these. If the pornography is such a terrible thing, then wouldn't parents take some effort to protect their children from it? Wouldn't people who are offended, just turn away? Even when becoming an author on this site recently, I glanced at the terms of acceptance, and agreed that, hey, I came to this site, I wanted to look and read, and then I want to fucking write!

Might just be the coffee here, but if we're living in a world where, when someone is offended by something, then everyone else is prohibited it, I'd rather take me and my 55 year old boyfriend to Mars for some peace and quiet.

 

[coyotepondering]

I'm more of a Darwinist when it comes to issues like these. If the pornography is such a terrible thing, then wouldn't parents take some effort to protect their children from it? Wouldn't people who are offended, just turn away? Even when becoming an author on this site recently, I glanced at the terms of acceptance, and agreed that, hey, I came to this site, I wanted to look and read, and then I want to fucking write!

Might just be the coffee here, but if we're living in a world where, when someone is offended by something, then everyone else is prohibited it, I'd rather take me and my 55 year old boyfriend to Mars for some peace and quiet.

The problem with a library is that it is a public space.

This means that 1) yes people can just turn away but you can't turn away from everywhere when there are computer screens everywhere - as is the case with us, unless you want to walk around with your eyes closed and then you accidentally run into a woman, grab her boob, get called a pervert.... ok, I'm rambling but you get the point.

2) Children will get exposed to things that they don't understand and may not understand to turn away from. There's a reason they're not granted full legal rights yet to watch porn. It helps to have a healthy attitude about sexuality before watching women get facials from 20 guys (not a fetish I have) .... not that all adults have healthy attitudes about sexuality

3) Parents can't watch all their kids 100% of the time and in places like the community library its nice to think that the child can wander a little bit and explore the shelves and ... well, relish the idea of reading and learning with some freedom. Now, I don't think that children should be allowed to run wild and especially with little children parents need to be concerned about all kinds of things (and yes, pedophiles stalk libraries - we catch them regularly) but I think its important to allow even that small degree of freedom in regards to learning and that means having some control over the environment so that children are safe in there.

God knows, I see enough older children that don't give a damn about reading or learning, let's nurture it before they get the attitude of the teenage years.

[ LOL - I'm probably sounding like an old codger beyond my years ]

 

[Weird Harold]

The problem with a library is that it is a public space.

This means that 1) yes people can just turn away but you can't turn away from everywhere when there are computer screens everywhere - as is the case with us, unless you want to walk around with your eyes closed and then you accidentally run into a woman, grab her boob, get called a pervert.... ok, I'm rambling but you get the point.

....

3) Parents can't watch all their kids 100% of the time and in places like the community library its nice to think that the child can wander a little bit and explore the shelves and ... well, relish the idea of reading and learning with some freedom.

I think just as importantly as libraries being public spaces, is that libraries have to be comfortable public spaces. If the community library isn't a quiet, comfortable place, it won't get used -- or supported -- and the taxpayers money is wasted

I'm a big fan of the "Young People's Library" arrangement that the Las Vegas Clark County System has -- it's not only a quiet comfortable place, it's a SAFE, quiet, comfortable place where the only threat to children is usually other children and grumpy librarians who want them to keep it a quiet place.

Significantly, in the context of this thread, the YPL areas have their own computer labs tht are supervised moreclosely than the computers in the main library.

I'm not sure what ages frequent the YPL, but I suppose it varies more on reading ability and interests than it does with age. I do know that I seldom see anyone under about 14-15 in the main library stacks unless they're hanging on "Mom's apron strings."

Inadvertant glimpses of "age inappropriate material" in the public access computer area is more likely to result in giggles and blushes that any sort of trauma. (Of course the age when kids transition to the main stacks is also about he age when hormones drive them to actively search out any information on sex they can find, )

 

[coyotepondering]

I think just as importantly as libraries being public spaces, is that libraries have to be comfortable public spaces. If the community library isn't a quiet, comfortable place, it won't get used -- or supported -- and the taxpayers money is wasted

I'm a big fan of the "Young People's Library" arrangement that the Las Vegas Clark County System has -- it's not only a quiet comfortable place, it's a SAFE, quiet, comfortable place where the only threat to children is usually other children and grumpy librarians who want them to keep it a quiet place.

Significantly, in the context of this thread, the YPL areas have their own computer labs tht are supervised moreclosely than the computers in the main library.

I'm not sure what ages frequent the YPL, but I suppose it varies more on reading ability and interests than it does with age. I do know that I seldom see anyone under about 14-15 in the main library stacks unless they're hanging on "Mom's apron strings."

Inadvertant glimpses of "age inappropriate material" in the public access computer area is more likely to result in giggles and blushes that any sort of trauma. (Of course the age when kids transition to the main stacks is also about he age when hormones drive them to actively search out any information on sex they can find, )

There are very few young adult facilities however. Its become en vogue after a few big successes in places like Los Angeles (and my own county is building one but it won't open until next year) but nation wide (United States) they're still the exception to the rule.

Most places have facilties for children and young adult services just get thrown in with adults with the attitude of "well, we know there's a world of difference between 13 and 17 but what are you going to do?"

 

[Weird Harold]

There are very few young adult facilities however. Its become en vogue after a few big successes in places like Los Angeles (and my own county is building one but it won't open until next year) but nation wide (United States) they're still the exception to the rule.

Most places have facilties for children and young adult services just get thrown in with adults with the attitude of "well, we know there's a world of difference between 13 and 17 but what are you going to do?"

It's good to know we're in the forefront of Library technlogy around here.

I'm not sure exactly how they break down the division of materials between main stacks and YPL stacks but I do know that I occsionally have to venture into the YPL to find books I'm looking for -- usually a novel a movie was based on. Often they'll be in the YPL in one branch and in the main stacks in another.

The branch I visit most has an entire floor set aside for the YPL which is gradated with early-readers on one end -- where the space for story-time and appropriately sized furniture are -- and the more difficult books at the other with larger furniture more suited to tweens and teens.

It's the kind of place you expect to see a "adults must be accompanied by a child" signs in -- very "Kid Friendly."

I suspect the emphasis on the YPL area at my brnch might have something to do with being co-located with the Lied Discovery Museum, but other branches in the system have YPL's that are nearly as complete -- especially the newer buildings.