A noble entry in Irish History

[Styphon]

Hi, All

Well, the Irish Nationalists must be really proud of themselves, screaming obscenities and hurling bricks and stones at four-year old Catholic kids going to school for the first time The kids and their parents have the temerity to want to walk through the "Nationalist" housing estate so that they can get to school!

I've just watched the news, and I saw a terrified, tearful little girl, escorted by her parents through a baying mob of scum. The kids were so traumatised yesterday that they were unable to actually learn anything, and they were sobbing hysterically at the thought of going home.

Nationalists?? I'm ashamed they consider even themselves British!

Styphon

 

[sexy-girl]

it almost made me cry watching it yesterday im half irish my gf's great grandparents were born in northern ireland so ireland pretty close to my heart it was just terrible

 

[Styphon]

Hi, Sexy-Girl

Yes, I felt like crying too - I was imagining my little boys being dragged through all that...

I mean, if there is a need to protest, why not a silent protest with a few placards? Why terrify little children fresh out of nursery? Christ, the sooner the "Big One" crashes into the Earth to give the cockroaches a chance, the better. Humanity is a sick joke...

Styphon

 

[shadowsource]

The Troubles continue....

I think it goes to show how little cover there is for the new, "egalitarian" Ulster. Few of the right-wing Protestants have truly accepted the end of hostilities and equal rights for Catholics, and I remain sympathetic to the IRA and Gerry Adams, who are holding out on turning over their weapons until the Royal Ulster Constabulary (the cops, for everyone else) are renamed and integreated with adequate numbers of Catholics. How people in the North, or in Macedonia, for that matter, could really wish to reexplore the horrors of the past, I don't know, but plenty of people do. The BBC TV images of those kids being led through lines of screaming, bottle-throwing Moms, Pops, and teens was very reminiscent of the black kids trying to reach high school during the worst days of the 1950s and '60s US Civil Rights Movement (or the Boston school wars of the 1970s).

 

[Darowyn]

There is some confusion over who is doing what to whom here.
The Nationalists are mostly Catholics who believe in a united Ireland. They are also sometimes called Republicans, and many of them support the IRA bombing campaign.
The brick throwers in this case are (mostly) Protestant "Loyalists" (Always eager to prove their loyalty to the Queen by trying to kill her soldiers). They believe that the Six Counties of Ulster which are in Northern Ireland should be part of the United Kingdom.
The Loyalists object to having Catholic parents walking down "their" street taking their children to school. These are the same Loyalists who annually hold a loyal riot at Drumcree in order to insist on their right to march in Bowler Hats and sashes, bands playing and drums beating, down a street lived in by Catholic irish people.
I have known lots of people from Ireland, and lovely people they are until this topic comes up. I just cannot see any end to it all while there is such entrenched and unthinking hostility. I have always thought that the back-against-the-wall stubborness comes from the fact that both communities feel themselves to be an embattled minority fighting for their existence against overwhelming odds. Within the North, the Catholics are a minority. Within Ireland, the Protestants are.
You get similar desperation with Bosnian Serbs, Albanians in Macedonia, Hutus & Tutsis in Africa etc.
This is dreafdfully sad- I've nothing funny to say about it!

 

[shadowsource]

Except -

The Ian Paisley Loyalists are bloody-minded racists, through and through. They will stop at nothing to end the peace process, just like the Israeli settlers. The IRA has indicated very solidly and simply that they want peace. Trimble just wants to be in power without being assassinated by a right-wing Loyalist. And why should the IRA give up their weapons until the police are sorted out? It was only a year or two ago that a female Catholic attorney was assassinated in her driveway by RUC-related thugs.

 

[sexy-girl]

shadowsource you have to agree though theres both catholics and loyalists that are halting the peace process both sides CAN be as bad as each other


it was the "real ira" that were responsible for the omar road bombing


also what catholic leaders and politicians were saying about this incident was that catholic families were partly at fault ... they KNEW what they were facing by taking there kids to school along that road it wasnt the families that lived that that were hurling abuse and bottle it was an extreme loyalists group ... the police asked the catholic families to walk a different way till it died down but they refused and put there kids through that mess ... both sides are terrible and chant there mantra of "NO SURRENDER"


im half irish and im catholic so if anything i side with the catholics but both sides need to grow up ... i agree with what you said about ian paisley hes nuts ... i think its harder for david trimble though i think hes trying but when hes got to make loyalists like ian paisley agree with him its hard

 

[shadowsource]

Sure, the IRA is still engaged in a struggle -

But history is on their side, in the sense that the Brits must ultimately depart, and the Loyalists represent a no-longer necessary historical tool for an old empire. With the EU bringing everyone into the same tent, trade-wise and rights-wise, it doesn't really matter so much which country one belongs to. This is why Scotland might ultimately secede from the UK without upsetting anyone terribly much. But the Loyalists, when they bare their teeth like this, show that all that matters to them is holding onto the old privileges, the old hatreds.

Yes, the Catholics wanted to bring their kids in through the school's front door. They've since changed their minds. Yes, it was a PR stunt, to make the Loyalists reveal themselves as child-beating scum. Guess what? It worked, without fatalities. The IRA are still clever. As a former Catholic, I can oppose anything Catholics do, without fear of being called names. if the religions here were reversed, I'd still back the ones whose civil rights march was fired on by the British Army in 1972 (bloody Sunday, Derry), the ones who couldn't get good jobs for hundreds of years, in their own land. It's not really about religion, but decency, and the evolution of human history. The troubles are tired, but some people don't want to let them go. The IRA clearly wants to move on. To his credit, I believe Blair does, too (one of the reasons the 80s were so useless was that the Tories needed Loyalist PMs like Paisley and Enoch Powell to support them in parliament, so they had a veto over Tory "peace" efforts; Blair's majority gives him a free hand).

You can criticize the IRA for not giving up the weapons hoard yet, but peace hasn't really happened yet. And yes, the Real IRA are scum, sentimental killers who don't want peace either. If I see the Loyalists as the Israeli settlers, I'd se Real IRA as Hamas, though circumstances are making Hamas very central in the West Bank these days.

 

[Myrrdin]

their mantra of "NO SURRENDER"

It says little for either side, that they are both prepared to use children as a protest tool. There are after all, two routes into that school.

For a more balanced viewpoint , Shadowsource , try reading these background BBC news reports.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1522000/1522743.stm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1524000/1524362.stm

 

[shadowsource]

Thanks Myrrdin -

I read the articles. I actually watch BBC news every night, tape it as ours is so pathetic. But we didn't get these long reports. I thoroughly understand that this is an epochal political struggle involving terrible deeds, but I simply don't think it will be settled until the violent right-Loyalists and the IRA fringe acts have been crushed by the state and by public opinion. The IRA has proven that, as long as this process continues in good faith, their misdeeds will be confined to punishing Catholic troublemakers, much the way the Israelis want Arafat to behave. They've proven their discipline. And the fact is that time will erode the Protestants' population edge, as it has in the Ardoyne, and the bloody-minded response is inevitably to start up the troubles again. Problems like this aren't solved by hand wringing, but by forward movement on the big issues: 1) the cops 2) the weapons. And then they'll all still have to duck from various paramilitaries. As I said, the kids' march was a PR move. That's politics in the RL, the world of Long Kesh, etc., as opposed to our little board. I support them because, as I said, history is very appropriately on their side.

Sorry about the sheep - I thought you'd enjoy the pic. I had no idea the Welsh were the Kiwis of Europe.

 

[tuirin]

Are the people in the united kingdom awake. I hate using the term uk because it puts across the impression that scotland and walse actualy wanted to be part of a country ruled by the English who get up on every ones baxcks.

FIRST OF i am a nationalist let me explain a nationalist wants a united ireland through peacefull means not through vioilence.

republicans want a united ireland but beleave violence is the only solution as the only thing the english goverement can do is make nice promises but never follow through.

loyalists want northern ireland to remain a part of the uk.

now let me explain what happened a group of nationalist parent were escorthing there children to school when a group of loyalists started to t5hrow rocks at them. all cler now wake the fuck up.

 

[p_p_man]

To use children as young as six and seven as propaganda fodder in their adult war with the loyalists makes the nationalists despicable bastards.

To throw rocks at children as young as six and seven to show their hatred of the catholics makes the "loyalists" despicable bastards.

Both sides are sick, despicable bastards.

Fuck the church.

All clear now tuirin?

 

[sexy-girl]

p p man your exactly right


one difficult thing you have to remember at the moment loyalists are in the majority i think i'd prefer a united ireland ... but is it fair to do that when the majority want to remain part of the uk

 

[p_p_man]

More to the point...

I've often thought that the UK as a whole should vote as to whether or not we want the "loyalists".

 

[shadowsource]

The Uk created the problem -

And you can condemn the players all you want, but it won't go away. How many of you know that many of the Northern Protestants are decendants of Scottish Highlanders who were ethnically cleansed and transported to Ulster as anti-Catholic fodder after the crushing of Binnie Prince Charlie?

 

[sexy-girl]

shadowsource i know terrible stories of what english have done to catholics in ireland my nan told me horrible stories about the potato famine stories about ian paisley that would make you think he was the devil himself (i think he might be) however all these stories although they really stir me and cause emotion you have to forget about history in the end and think how do we fix the mess we're in NOW

 

[shadowsource]

But -

I was talking about the terrible things the Brits also did to the Protestants! When you go to Jamaica, you see an island with hardly any indigenous animals or even plants, and no indigenous people. The blacks were dragged over as slaves, and the East Asians were recruited under great pressure to work after the slaves won their freedom and didn't want to have anything to do with the plantations. Throughout, lots of Irish were prodded over to oversee the darker sorts. Bligh brought breadfruits from the South Seas on the Bounty, other fruits and veggies were imported from Africa and Asia to feed masses of slaves, etc. etc. The whole country is unnatural. That's the Empire at its most efficient. And it was very efficient. Today the UK doesn't need Ulster in any way whatsoever.

What do you do now? Pretty much what Blair is doing. He is being very patient with the IRA because HE KNOWS THEY'RE NOT THE PROBLEM. He's a smart man, his government is secure, and he actually wants to build a long-lasting solution so he can pull the troops out and let the EU and time do the rest. Back when the Irish Republic was a hopeless economic, theocratic mess, one could never imagine many Northerners wanting to merge. That's no longer a problem ((except for certain essential women's rights like abortion, divorce, which are slowly improving).

Blair seems like a putz very often, but he's the right man for this job. And when you ask yourself how he could be so patient, that's when he's really doing his job. I will never forget how the Tories would always come up with some last-minute demand to scotch the talks with the IRA (and keep the Ulster MPs voting their way); Blair never does that.

 

[p_p_man]

shadowsource...

it's comments like yours that add fuel to the whole sordid mess.

As sexy_girl says that was yesterday. We now have to think of today and tomorrow and the day after...

Good grief man I don't think there are many people left living in the UK who have not been involved with the Irish troubles, in one way or another, since the marches of the 60s. And who still are involved.

Most people couldn't give a flying fuck about how it all started and supercillious comments telling us how it did, as if we didn't know already, doesn't help the situation one bit.


very

 

[p_p_man]

shadowsource...

my last post is in reply to your post before your last one. I'm out of synch...

 

[Handy-Andy]

Shadowsource

All I can say is FUCK YOU and anyone else that SUPPORT'S terrorist group's .

 

[shadowsource]

What I'm trying to say -

- is that the IRA has to be trusted, that Blair knows what he's doing, and that all the pressure about decomissioning is an effort to derail the process, as happened in '74. A lot of blood will happen, a lot of posturing wil take place, but if Blair and Adams prevail -and their interests are not mutually exclusive - things can turn out. But this will unleash a very nasty paramilitary response by Unionists, be sure of that. Then you'll see how "loyal" they are to the Queen.

 

[Ask For More]

Re: What I'm trying to say -

- is that the IRA has to be trusted, that Blair knows what he's doing, and that all the pressure about decomissioning is an effort to derail the process, as happened in '74. A lot of blood will happen, a lot of posturing wil take place, but if Blair and Adams prevail -and their interests are not mutually exclusive - things can turn out. But this will unleash a very nasty paramilitary response by Unionists, be sure of that. Then you'll see how "loyal" they are to the Queen.

That's a very dangerous statement shadowsource; I have seen firsthand the effects of some of the IRA terrorism of the 80's and 90's and it's not pretty my friend.

I agree that Blair is taking a better approach than previous government, but the way you are wording your posts is very misleading.

 

[shadowsource]

Sure it's ugly.

It's war. Now it's peace, maybe. Which do you prefer?

 

[*Lazer*]

My father was born and raised in Ireland. He emigrated to the US in the hopes of making a better life. He told me that as a young irish male his options were very limited. When I first started being aware of the conflict in Ireland he explained the reasons for both side's resentments. He said he left because he felt no hope for a timely resolution to this hatred. This conflict is every bit as ugly and scarring as the civil war here in the US. I watched those kids and felt my heart break at what was ingrained on their souls that day. I wonder if any of the parties involved realize the price in human suffering they extract each day this bitterness continues? I pray that both sides can detach from emotion long enought to see the destruction being wrought. Such a beautiful country poisening it's most valuable gifts, it's children.

 

[p_p_man]

Amen to that *Lazer*