A few questions.

[Wondering_Newb]

Hello. I got redirected to this forum since people told me I would get much better information and from much more expirienced people than on the last forum. So here goes:

I'm not sure what I am... I know I like sensual bondage and romantic settings and perhaps sometimes watching pictures about a level or two more unusuall things turns me on but there are a few things I <can't> understand.

Now why would anyone willingly like to submit themselfs to "financial domination" seriously... what is the point? If you want to waste your money, and submit yourself to a waste of your financial resources why not put your name on a Red Cross donation list with a 3-4 numbers high digit.

Why would anyone like to submit themselfs to fulltime slavery threw a contract.If she or he now wants to be dominate for a surtain amount of time (like lifetime) then they could just let their mistress or master dominate them as long as they wanted (and if they want, their whole life). Or maybe I've missed some paragraphs <Grins>... about what a slave contract is.(No I have not viewed one but I have read about them a litle).

3rd, if you visit such internetpages, dungeons, meetings about bondage/domination and/or sadism. Does the FBI (as example, for it is the most known) in some speciall "list".

Last and finall.

Is Blackmailing legal? No it's not... How can some "mistress's/(Masters?)" be doing it then without getting in jail? It's crazy godamit. The whole CONCEPT of blackmailing a person who is devoted to you just to keep his or her devotion is proof of your own weakness.. I really can't understand that.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well I suspect you have much to learn and understand, which you wil likely get some help with here. As for the FBI question....I assume you were asking will they track and know where you have been online and what you do?....believe me, in any western nation in today's world you do not have privacy and yes, that means at some point your movements are being checked and monitored with and without your knowledge, the US being one of the worst for it as they like to make their citizens believe it is not so, but I have had first hand proof it definately is and without any provocation or need to.

Catalina

 

[Quint]

The questions you asked are pretty broad and I hope you understand that they do not apply to a large percentage of people who engage in BDSM practices.

1.) Why financial domination? Because it fulfills a need in the submissive, either a need not to be held responsible for their own finances through trusting them to their dominant (observe the spelling), or a need to show their devotion to their dominant through money rather than/in addition to toys, words, or other deeds. Think of it as tithing if that makes it easier to understand.

2.) Why contracts? Think of it this way: you're against eating meat, so you live a vegetarian lifestyle. There may be times that you wish you were comfortable eating meat, or you may never feel any regret. Some people never want to be dominant, so declaring this through a contract is just a way of affirming this vow. It's a lot like wedding vows, actually. You both make a commitment to the other and to certain ideologies. It's exactly what that relationship makes of it, no more and no less, and it is certainly not one-size-fits-all.

3.) I've never seen or heard of BDSM blackmail in real life. Methinks thou readest too much amateur Lit porn. Lots of crazy stuff gets written about in the name of BDSM. Don't take it too seriously.

 

[FurryFury]

The FBI can put me on any list they want to. I don't care at all because I have no plans to run for public office and I don't want to see my kids do it either!

LOL!

I am not into nor do I know much about financial service and/or slave contracts. I also don't judge folks who are into those things.

Blackmail? Try it. It won't end pretty. I'm one of those cut nose off to spite own face types. You can't force me to do anything I don't want you to force me to do. Now if I give my submission to someone freely well then that's something else.

Fury

 

[A Desert Rose]

Wow and you guys all understood this dipshit?

I'm impressed.




lol

 

[Wondering_Newb]

@Catalina:

Yes indeed I have much to learn so thanks for showing patience with me and explaining something which had happend to you. Sorry to hear that by the way, and I just read members of the EU want to push forward a law to press the finall breaths out of personal integrity and freedom and simply forget it ever existed. The law includes IP monitoring of every user and saving information about who you have called (phone and internet), mailed, what site's you've been on and when. <Sad look>.

@Quint
1
I still can't really understant it. <It> takes away your only source of escape, your only way out if you one day decide you do not wish to be a sub anymore.
2
About the contract.. one questions before any more: Is it possible to disband and how? EDIT: Well let me put it this way instead. It must be possible to disband if the two agree on some way to disband it before signing it. But is it possible to sign a contract that you can't disband, so to speak?

@Furry

hehe What more can I say You're just my style, at least in the thinking (Thought I might run for public office so it could mean a problem for me <Laughs>)!
I ain't judging those who do the 2 things neither, I just can't really figure out why.

@ ADR

Oh take away that thing in your ass and put it in your mouth instead, maybe it will reach upp to your empty skull and fill it with something.

 

[sexymom]

Infinite Variations

You will find that bdsm has as many beliefs and practices as it does participants- maybe more.

In my opinion, the issues of financial domination, contracts, and blackmail are, or can be, related. There are some submissives whose attraction to "the lifestyle" depends on, or is enhanced by, the lack of an escape clause: going down paths from which there is no turning back. In the minds of some, that is a higher degree of commitment.

As to the prospects of escaping, all three items- financial domination, contracts, and blackmail are illegal in the absence of consent. This means that they are more in the nature of emotional or psychological commitments than legal, "official" ones. Of course, that doesn't mean they aren't real to the people involved. Most of us have certain things in our lives that we hold more sacred, or more important, than legal requirements.

 

[catalina_francisco]

@Catalina:

Yes indeed I have much to learn so thanks for showing patience with me and explaining something which had happend to you. Sorry to hear that by the way, and I just read members of the EU want to push forward a law to press the finall breaths out of personal integrity and freedom and simply forget it ever existed. The law includes IP monitoring of every user and saving information about who you have called (phone and internet), mailed, what site's you've been on and when. <Sad look>.

LOL, I prefer it here as opposed to places like Oz and the US because though you might have to endure these things, at least they respect people's intelligence and rights enough to inform us what they do, whereas in the US and OZ they deny everything and do it secretly and much more heavily and invasive. I can cope with honesty, I can't with underhanded lying and deception.

BTW, if you are genuinely seeking to gain acceptance and knowledge here, you might like to rethink abusing long standing and respected posters such as ADR on this forum. After all, it is you who says you really don't have a clue about anything here so perhaps manners might get you further in your search for knowledge than letting lose on others.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

...BTW, if you are genuinely seeking to gain acceptance and knowledge here, you might like to rethink abusing long standing and respected posters such as ADR on this forum. After all, it is you who says you really don't have a clue about anything here so perhaps manners might get you further in your search for knowledge than letting lose on others.

Catalina

Thank you Catalina, but I was rude. Obviously, this is someone who should be taken seriously.

 

[Wondering_Newb]

<Small Giggle>

Well I guess I still have some doubts but the answers given are probably the best ones I will get threw a forum and without involving myself in this world.

Thank you and perhaps I'll stop by some more time. If I have time I'll join with one of the RPGs (non-sexual) later in december.


Farewell and thanks

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thank you Catalina, but I was rude. Obviously, this is someone who should be taken seriously.

Ah well we do seem to get our fair share of curiosity seekers and trolls, so it is often difficult to initially tell the truly interested and wanting to learn from those who want to stir and/or pass judgement. I find these days unless it is blatently obvious (rarely) from the first post, I wait and see how they treat others here before I get too excited and helpful. Must be getting old and cynical.

Catalina

 

[Milambus]

Now why would anyone willingly like to submit themselfs to "financial domination" seriously... what is the point? If you want to waste your money, and submit yourself to a waste of your financial resources why not put your name on a Red Cross donation list with a 3-4 numbers high digit.

Even in non-BDSM relationships it is common for one of the participants to be in charge of the economics of the couple. It was quite common for the husband to be the "bread-winner" who would bring his check home and hand it over to the wife who would manage the house-hold expenses as part of her "wifely duties".

This has carried over to some BDSM relationships as just a natural extension of the relationship for the participants.

For other relationships, the submitting to financial domination is just another aspect of thier lives that they can give up to thier Dominant. And for others it may simply be that the sub does not want to be in charge of thier finances, and find it easier to just allow thier Doms to worry about it.

There are probably other reasons why someone would chose to submit in this way to another, but those are a few that I could think of.

I still can't really understant it. <It> takes away your only source of escape, your only way out if you one day decide you do not wish to be a sub anymore.

I think that very well may be the reason why do it. They do not want a way to escape.

Why would anyone like to submit themselfs to fulltime slavery threw a contract.If she or he now wants to be dominate for a surtain amount of time (like lifetime) then they could just let their mistress or master dominate them as long as they wanted (and if they want, their whole life). Or maybe I've missed some paragraphs <Grins>... about what a slave contract is.(No I have not viewed one but I have read about them a litle).

I think you may misunderstand what a Slave Contract is.

Here are a few links that can give you more information on contracts, with a short excerpt that I think may help you:

To begin with, let me define what a contract is. Fundamentally, it is an consensual agreement between a dominant and a submissive that specifies the roles, rights, and responsibilities of the parties involved. They can range from the very general, touching only on the broader goals, to the very specific, detailing virtually every aspect of the relationship. Which type is best depends on the needs of those making the contract.

A Slave Contract is not a legal document, instead it is simply an agreement between two or more people specifying what both people want and expect from thier relationship.

http://www.castlerealm.com/library/contract101.shtml
http://www.castlerealm.com/library/signing.shtml

About the contract.. one questions before any more: Is it possible to disband and how? EDIT: Well let me put it this way instead. It must be possible to disband if the two agree on some way to disband it before signing it. But is it possible to sign a contract that you can't disband, so to speak?

Yes, a contract may be cancelled at any time, especially since they are not leagally binding in any way. Even if they were however, all BDSM relationships should follow the rules of SSC (Safe, Sane and Censentual) so if one party no longer gives consent, the relationship would end. The contract may however, specify some actions that would take place at the end of the relationship. The returning of property (toys, collars, etc), possibly some financial restitution if one party had spent a large some of money to prepare for the relationship. But that would all depend on the specifics of the relationship in question. Every contract like every relationship is unique.

Is Blackmailing legal? No it's not... How can some "mistress's/(Masters?)" be doing it then without getting in jail? It's crazy godamit. The whole CONCEPT of blackmailing a person who is devoted to you just to keep his or her devotion is proof of your own weakness.. I really can't understand that.

Don't confuse the stories and fantasies you read on the internet as what happens in real BDSM relationships. Just like what happens in Lawyer and Cop TV shows rarely reflects reality. Stories are written to be more intresting than reality and often include fantasies that people know they could not actually do in reality.

 

[DVS]

Thank you Catalina, but I was rude. Obviously, this is someone who should be taken seriously.

So, maybe you do need someting big in your ass and something similar in your mouth...along with beng bound and stipped naked and forced into a lewd and submissive position for strict punishment. But, maybe I digress?

 

[A Desert Rose]

So, maybe you do need someting big in your ass and something similar in your mouth...along with beng bound and stipped naked and forced into a lewd and submissive position for strict punishment. But, maybe I digress?

You digress? Never.

You're almost always on the mark... aren't you? Least where I'm concerned, you are. ;@

 

[Etoile]

3rd, if you visit such internetpages, dungeons, meetings about bondage/domination and/or sadism. Does the FBI (as example, for it is the most known) in some speciall "list".

Actually, I'm going to have to say a firm no for this. There is no such list with any governmental agency called "people who are into BDSM." These activities are all perfectly legal, and there is no justification for any agency keeping track of people who are into it. In fact, unless you are under suspicion of doing illegal things (like soliciting for underage sex, etc) then no governmental agency is keeping tabs on you. And your ISP isn't either. If there was a reason to, logs could easily be recalled, and there should not be any expectation to privacy. But as long as one stays in the legal realm - which BDSM definitely is - there is absolutely no list anywhere with your name on it.

 

[Etoile]

As for the FBI question....I assume you were asking will they track and know where you have been online and what you do?....believe me, in any western nation in today's world you do not have privacy and yes, that means at some point your movements are being checked and monitored with and without your knowledge, the US being one of the worst for it as they like to make their citizens believe it is not so, but I have had first hand proof it definately is and without any provocation or need to.

I hope you don't mind, Catalina, but can I question how you have proof of this? I don't remember of what country you are a citizen (either Australia or the Netherlands I'm assuming, maybe both?) so I am guessing that this has happened to someone you know. If you're not at liberty to say, that's fine, but I don't presently agree with your assertions so I'm curious to know more.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I hope you don't mind, Catalina, but can I question how you have proof of this? I don't remember of what country you are a citizen (either Australia or the Netherlands I'm assuming, maybe both?) so I am guessing that this has happened to someone you know. If you're not at liberty to say, that's fine, but I don't presently agree with your assertions so I'm curious to know more.

Was while I was still living in Oz and had an American friend....hmm, nearly married him at one stage but decided it wouldn't work so stayed friends....anyway, he has very influential and high profile family, but his politics differ in that he is more interested in protecting the environment than making money. He made the mistake of speaking publicly about a certain development that was going to cause major environmental destruction, but line the pockets of some wealthy people, his family included. He was successful in getting other people to also publicly speak out against the devekopment and from then on his life became hell in various unexplainable and mysterious ways which often connected back to areas like the FBI and law enforcement.

He even had problems legally on one of his many trips to Oz whereas before there had never been an issue. Fortunately his family provided access to a top lawyer experienced in such areas and he was able to get out of a sticky mess not of his making and fabricated, though it still cost him. He broke contact with all close freinds in an effort to not bring trouble to anyone elses door. I didn't hear from him for 5 years, then got a letter from him out of the blue, phoned him immediately to catch up, and within hours I had a call from a very official sounding American voice asking what my connection to him was and if I had any information on his wherabouts. The give away that it was not someone he knew (apart from the very authoritarian manner etc.) was that they asked for him by his given name which he and no-one who knows him ever use or know...only reason I knew it was because of when we had begun to arrange getting married. He has a long list of incidents that have happened to him, but from what he says these days, he chooses to lead a quiet life and not talk about it too much unless he feels threatened again. LOL, he used to tell me how the FBI and US government monitored everything their citizens did, but of course did not tell it's citizens, and I used to think perhaps he was just a little paranoid...after what he went through, and the parts I was involved in, I think he was just touching on the tip of the iceberg.

Catalina

 

[sexymom]

They've been hiding Elvis and Jimmy Hoffa all these years- they can do anything, and usually do.

 

[Etoile]

Was while I was still living in Oz and had an American friend....hmm, nearly married him at one stage but decided it wouldn't work so stayed friends....anyway, he has very influential and high profile family, but his politics differ in that he is more interested in protecting the environment than making money. He made the mistake of speaking publicly about a certain development that was going to cause major environmental destruction, but line the pockets of some wealthy people, his family included. He was successful in getting other people to also publicly speak out against the devekopment and from then on his life became hell in various unexplainable and mysterious ways which often connected back to areas like the FBI and law enforcement.

He even had problems legally on one of his many trips to Oz whereas before there had never been an issue. Fortunately his family provided access to a top lawyer experienced in such areas and he was able to get out of a sticky mess not of his making and fabricated, though it still cost him. He broke contact with all close freinds in an effort to not bring trouble to anyone elses door. I didn't hear from him for 5 years, then got a letter from him out of the blue, phoned him immediately to catch up, and within hours I had a call from a very official sounding American voice asking what my connection to him was and if I had any information on his wherabouts. The give away that it was not someone he knew (apart from the very authoritarian manner etc.) was that they asked for him by his given name which he and no-one who knows him ever use or know...only reason I knew it was because of when we had begun to arrange getting married. He has a long list of incidents that have happened to him, but from what he says these days, he chooses to lead a quiet life and not talk about it too much unless he feels threatened again. LOL, he used to tell me how the FBI and US government monitored everything their citizens did, but of course did not tell it's citizens, and I used to think perhaps he was just a little paranoid...after what he went through, and the parts I was involved in, I think he was just touching on the tip of the iceberg.

Catalina

Thank you for sharing the story, Catalina. I don't doubt that the FBI maintains files on people for a variety of reasons, including phone records (even taps) and probably web usage logs. I suspect I might have a file because I used to receive mail on a regular basis from a Chinese governmental department. (I was a shortwave radio listener and fan of their state radio, so I signed up on their mailing list.) But I had felt that the original question was directed at the general public, who has no reason to have triggered the FBI's attention. As I interpreted the original question, it was asking if the FBI would keep tabs on you just because you had an interest in BDSM and attended/visited/participated in related events/websites/etc. I still believe the answer to that is a firm no. Additionally, even if I do have an FBI file (which, now that I've been contracted to two gov't agencies and had two background checks run in connection with that, I possibly do) I feel quite safe visiting whatever websites I want. So I believe my answer to the original question holds up - no, the U.S. government doesn't care if you visit kinky websites or go to munches. There is no list of "people who are into BDSM."

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thank you for sharing the story, Catalina. I don't doubt that the FBI maintains files on people for a variety of reasons, including phone records (even taps) and probably web usage logs. I suspect I might have a file because I used to receive mail on a regular basis from a Chinese governmental department. (I was a shortwave radio listener and fan of their state radio, so I signed up on their mailing list.) But I had felt that the original question was directed at the general public, who has no reason to have triggered the FBI's attention. As I interpreted the original question, it was asking if the FBI would keep tabs on you just because you had an interest in BDSM and attended/visited/participated in related events/websites/etc. I still believe the answer to that is a firm no. Additionally, even if I do have an FBI file (which, now that I've been contracted to two gov't agencies and had two background checks run in connection with that, I possibly do) I feel quite safe visiting whatever websites I want. So I believe my answer to the original question holds up - no, the U.S. government doesn't care if you visit kinky websites or go to munches. There is no list of "people who are into BDSM."

I have no illusions over them snooping into your average suburban Jones's who have never put a foot wrong, and not just in the US unfortunately. I have been given many more instances of proof from a variety of people, but it isn't real healthy for ordinary people to be too outspoken about it, otherwise strange things begin happening...and unfortunately, as my friend told me 20 years ago, most average folk don't want to believe it happens so take the option of thinking it isn't possible, thus living a lot more comfortably than if they acknolwedged they were constantly open to surveillance without provocation.

It also happens in Oz and the UK.....you no longer have a right to privacy as everything is open to surveillance. LOL, what is the running joke about visiting London these days?....something along the lines of asking for your holiday snaps at the customs counter as you leave, based on the fact that if you visit such places even for a few hours you will be photographed in a variety of places in the number of triple and quadruple figures so why waste time taking your own pics!! The Australian government have at least admitted they have access to anyone and everyone's email and phone records and the US is I believe even heavier handed but more secretive. Sort of like the big hush up going on at the moment about sending suspects to other countries to be tortured.....proof has been produced but the US government denies it like they deny everything that infringes on human rights of the average citizen.

Given BDSM type activities are high on the US government list of undesireable behaviour, I don't doubt there is a list of suspect people though maybe not limited in name to BDSM only. And then of course there is the UK who are proposing that credit card companies be obliged to inform on their clients if they live in the UK and subscribe to any porn site (in or outside the country) which has violent or humiliation material on it, such as your mildest BDSM site would have.

Catalina

 

[Etoile]

Although I'm getting a conspiracy theory vibe here, I do agree that there is plenty of evidence of the FBI and other agencies spying on ordinary citizens, yes. As seen here:
Spy Agency Targets Bush Critics
The FBI is Spying on You and Me
The FBI's Secret Scrutiny
Big Brother is Online (British focus, touches on international stuff)

However...I still maintain that one's BDSM activities are not sufficient to put one on a watchlist. I'm really trying to focus on the OP's question here, not on the greater issue of whether or not the government spies on its citizens. I think it's really important to note that the answer to the OP's question is no.

Given BDSM type activities are high on the US government list of undesireable behaviour, I don't doubt there is a list of suspect people though maybe not limited in name to BDSM only. And then of course there is the UK who are proposing that credit card companies be obliged to inform on their clients if they live in the UK and subscribe to any porn site (in or outside the country) which has violent or humiliation material on it, such as your mildest BDSM site would have.

Now I am really feeling a conspiracy theory vibe, Catalina. I hope you understand that I'm not disagreeing with you personally, just the assertions you're making. I don't think BDSM activities are anywhere near the US gov't list of "undesirable behavior" - I acknowledge that there is such a list, especially under the PATRIOT Act, but I really just do not agree that the government has a list of kinksters. I don't think I'm being overly naive here, either - I am plenty aware of what the government can do, and what it does do. I even know about the newly-formed porn squad. But even that is specifically targeted to the marketers and purveyors of pornography, not the viewers.

 

[Wondering_Newb]

...You are starting to freak me out Even though I'm heavily involved with political discussions this is getting scarry. But maybe a bit offtopic If I say what I was going to say now aswell.. so I won't.

Anyway I know as I explained that the EU has now not only wanted to vote, but voted yes to the proposition to track everyones internet, mail and phone activities. Now this doesn't specificly go against people involved in BDSM but .. I bet that if they are searching for a rapist or something they will check the people involved in BDSM activities on the internet first.
- Ignorant bastards, I know.


I'm very interested in this fact though that the BDSM itself would be on some kind of list. ~ so let's see what comes out of it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Although I'm getting a conspiracy theory vibe here, I do agree that there is plenty of evidence of the FBI and other agencies spying on ordinary citizens, yes. As seen here:
Spy Agency Targets Bush Critics
The FBI is Spying on You and Me
The FBI's Secret Scrutiny
Big Brother is Online (British focus, touches on international stuff)

However...I still maintain that one's BDSM activities are not sufficient to put one on a watchlist. I'm really trying to focus on the OP's question here, not on the greater issue of whether or not the government spies on its citizens. I think it's really important to note that the answer to the OP's question is no.


Now I am really feeling a conspiracy theory vibe, Catalina. I hope you understand that I'm not disagreeing with you personally, just the assertions you're making. I don't think BDSM activities are anywhere near the US gov't list of "undesirable behavior" - I acknowledge that there is such a list, especially under the PATRIOT Act, but I really just do not agree that the government has a list of kinksters. I don't think I'm being overly naive here, either - I am plenty aware of what the government can do, and what it does do. I even know about the newly-formed porn squad. But even that is specifically targeted to the marketers and purveyors of pornography, not the viewers.

OK, they do not list it under 'BDSM Activities', and that was not what I was saying, but Bush has been vocal about cracking down on sexual practices (along with others) that fall under the list of things many of us like to do and which are ''normal behaviour' amongst those in our community. Have you forgotten the law which has made it almost impossible to have certain type pictures on the internet and which have resulted in places like Lit, Bondage.com etc., in altering what they can openly allow with their knowledge or under their protection, not to mention people like Netzach and Midori who have had to censor or close their sites out of concern for the repercussions to them? What I was saying, and what is commonly believed by many people now and has been proven as you noted, is that it matters little if you participate in BDSM activities in relation to your being under surveillance and losing your right to privacy because you have already lost it without realising or necessarily having been into anything like BDSM. I guess once you are outside the shores of the US it also is highlighted a lot more and spoken about openly.

Catalina

PS. F just told me about these links :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/831111.stm

http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echres.html#stoa

which outline some of the FBI's and US global activities in relation to checking peoples personal emails and internet use. Europe has already proven that in the case of the second programme, though it is supposedly used by the UK, OZ and USA only to sniff internet traffic in relation to national security, that it was in fact used by the US to perform industrial spying to then pass on the information to their own country's companies giving them information which gave them advantage in world markets. There have also been cases of thee programmes being used on personal emails and citizens to check what they are doing without any previous reason for doing so. He also says there is now a newer programme in use for which there is little information openly available but which makes it even easier for the US to watch the internet movements of the whole world not just it's own citizens.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Anyway I know as I explained that the EU has now not only wanted to vote, but voted yes to the proposition to track everyones internet, mail and phone activities. Now this doesn't specificly go against people involved in BDSM but .. I bet that if they are searching for a rapist or something they will check the people involved in BDSM activities on the internet first.
- Ignorant bastards, I know.


I'm very interested in this fact though that the BDSM itself would be on some kind of list. ~ so let's see what comes out of it.

Actually no, they are not ignorant bastards as yes, it has been voted in that ISP's have to record the information (ie. addresses etc) for a 2 year period in Europe, but that the information is not to be handed over to anyone including government agencies unless a court order is produced. As a matter of interest, a similar law has been in place in the US for the last 10 years. Difference here is that as I said before, they at least tell you what they are doing or going to do whereas in the US they deny most of it all and do it anyway.

Catalina

 

[Etoile]

I'm going to bow out of this thread - I've said what I believe and I just don't have the strength to argue about it right now. I'm sorry.