1 in 100 Americans behind bars

[cloudy]

Okay, that number is so damn ridiculous. Can it become any more obvious that our justice system absolutely sucks monkey balls, and is made for corruption and misuse?

More and more lately, I'm ashamed of this country.

1 in 100 Americans behind bars, report finds
Prison spending ballooned from $11 billion to $49 billion in 2 decades

NEW YORK - For the first time in U.S. history, more than one of every 100 adults is in jail or prison, according to a new report documenting America’s rank as the world’s No. 1 incarcerator. It urges states to curtail corrections spending by placing fewer low-risk offenders behind bars.

Using state-by-state data, the report says 2,319,258 Americans were in jail or prison at the start of 2008 — one out of every 99.1 adults. Whether per capita or in raw numbers, it’s more than any other nation.

linkage

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For years our prison system has been referred to as the nations "largest reservation" because the demographics for the people in the US as a whole for some reason aren't being represented in prison. There is something like one percent Native American here. In prison that percentage jumps to two or three percent. Still a small number, sure, but it's at least double what the Native population is in the free world.

It's also very obvious that African Americans are way over-represented too. I don't believe that minorities instrinsically commit more crime, but they are historically poorer than white folks, and when you have to make do with a public defender instead of a private attorney, the outcome is a roll of the dice, at best. Public defenders are usually lawyers right out of law school that didn't make the grades to score a very lucrative corporate job, and to top it off, they usually don't give a shit about their clients, but seem to view their jobs along the lines of a factory: move 'em through as quickly as possible.

Something needs to be done, but it won't, you know why?

Because we're so scared of every god damned bump in the night that we mistakenly believe that our supermax prisons are protecting us, but they aren't. All they're good for is making better criminals out of the ones that get caught. Might as well change the names to a University.

Wake up, folks. The next one on the receiving end of what they call "justice" may be you, and they don't give a shit whether you're guilty or innocent. Its all the same to them.

 

[oggbashan]

United Kingdom comparison lists for world

The UK as at 2003 had 141 prisoners per 100,000 population.

The figures for the world in 2003 are shown Here

Since 2003 the UK's prison population has increased significantly and our Prison Service faces a real crisis because their capacity to accomodate prisoners has been exceeded. (Matriarch could give more information if she's allowed to).

Some ethnic groups are overrepresented in prisons. The Prison Service also deals with problems that other facilities should take such as people with mental or personality problems; foreign nationals with no right of residence and drug abusers for whom community treatment schemes are not available.

If one of our local drug addicts was to ask for help to quit there is a waiting list of at least six months before access to a community programme. During that six months that addict is likely either to offend to feed the drug habit or to develop more health problems yet funding for community work with drug addiction isn't enough. The Prison Service ends up picking up the pieces.

Og

Edited: Today's figures for UK Prison Population: Here

 

[ishtat]

1 in 100 Americans behind bars, report finds
Prison spending ballooned from $11 billion to $49 billion in 2 decades

Leaving aside the moral and social issues that number is economically unsustainable. That's almost the population of whole countries like New Zealand or Ireland or Norway. Staggering.

 

[TxRad]

That begs to ask how many people here on Lit are prisoners? Oh wait, we all are. That explains the rubber walls.


It could explain the troll problem also.

 

[cloudy]

Leaving aside the moral and social issues that number is economically unsustainable. That's almost the population of whole countries like New Zealand or Ireland or Norway. Staggering.

Scary, isn't it?

Og: my point almost exactly. It's gone way past the point where something should have been done (although I have no idea what) to slow the prison population growth.

As someone who's been through our ironically named "Justice System" here in the states, I can tell you from experience that it's horrible, most of the time corrupt as David Duke, and the way it functions, the people dealing with it get anything but justice. More like a hard, rough ass-fucking that lasts far longer than it should.

The people that run it, participate in it, are part of the problem, because they simply don't care whether someone's innocent or not - unless, of course, it's the police, and they think everyone's guilty until proven innocent, and treat them that way.

The courts are full of cronyism, and the good ol' boy network functions right out in the open. Nobody cares. Its just an assembly line approach: bring 'em in, bring 'em to court, decide how high their fine should be, and then go on to the next one.

Heaven forbid someone is actually innocent of what they're accused of. In that case, they'll be offered a plea bargain - everyone is pretty much - or the choice of going to trial.

If you choose to go to trial, it pisses 'em all off - judges, attorneys and police alike - so you're almost guaranteed to be found guilty.

In my case, for example: I honestly didn't do anything wrong besides trust some employees that I shouldn't have trusted as far as I could throw them, but I realized that that was my signature on those documents, and what happened was basically my fault, even though I didn't steal anything. I could be held liable.

So....I can take the plea bargain, which was a fairly small fine, a suspended sentence of three years (don't get in any more trouble during probation, and the suspended sentence disappears), and be on unsupervised probation for three years. OR I could take my chances with a trial, and possibly go to prison for three years.

Its a no-brainer. However, now I'm labeled a felon, can't get a damn job at McDonald's, and have that on my record until the day I die....and my story is far from unique. I would even say it's the norm.

I have nothing but contempt for what they call justice in this country.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Time to legalize drugs. (Way past time.) That's the thing that's corrupted the whole system. You take away that massive incentive to organized and unorganized crime with all the violence and larceny associated with both, and the number people caught up in some phase of the criminal justice system drops by half or more. In my view that is really the only possible constructive response to this depressing story.

 

[cantdog]

We have so many cop agencies, too. Marshals and their deputies, sheriffs and theirs, town constables, city police, Border Patrol, FBI, ATF, Homeland Security...

Taken together, I wonder what they add up to?

It's no wonder so much of our entertainment revolves around cops and criminals. I bet serial killers alone floated the plots of about 15% of all shows. Certainly the idea of a serial killer is a cultural icon, and glorified. "Action" films generally make the heroes into multiple murderers.

Is this all we do here?

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

We have so many cop agencies, too. Marshals and their deputies, sheriffs and theirs, town constables, city police, Border Patrol, FBI, ATF, Homeland Security...

Taken together, I wonder what they add up to?

It's no wonder so much of our entertainment revolves around cops and criminals. I bet serial killers alone floated the plots of about 15% of all shows. Certainly the idea of a serial killer is a cultural icon, and glorified. "Action" films generally make the heroes into multiple murderers.

Is this all we do here?

We fuck. We could replace all the violence films with sex and romance ones.

 

[Huckleman2000]

We fuck. We could replace all the violence films with sex and romance ones.

My god! First the drug thing and then this - I've agreed with Roxanne TWICE in ONE THREAD!

 

[ABSTRUSE]

My god! First the drug thing and then this - I've agreed with Roxanne TWICE in ONE THREAD!

OMG...the Rapture is coming!!!!



I wonder how many innocent people are in jail these days?

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Time to legalize drugs. (Way past time.) That's the thing that's corrupted the whole system. You take away that massive incentive to organized and unorganized crime with all the violence and larceny associated with both, and the number people caught up in some phase of the criminal justice system drops by half or more. In my view that is really the only possible constructive response to this depressing story.

Agreed. There wasn't any real need to ban them in the first place. It was all nonsense from the beginning.

We fuck. We could replace all the violence films with sex and romance ones.

So agreed. I'll start rounding up some women and you round up some men and we'll have ourselves a real good time

 

[oggbashan]

...

The people that run it, participate in it, are part of the problem, because they simply don't care whether someone's innocent or not - unless, of course, it's the police, and they think everyone's guilty until proven innocent, and treat them that way.

The courts are full of cronyism, and the good ol' boy network functions right out in the open. Nobody cares. Its just an assembly line approach: bring 'em in, bring 'em to court, decide how high their fine should be, and then go on to the next one.

Heaven forbid someone is actually innocent of what they're accused of. In that case, they'll be offered a plea bargain - everyone is pretty much - or the choice of going to trial.

If you choose to go to trial, it pisses 'em all off - judges, attorneys and police alike - so you're almost guaranteed to be found guilty.

In my case, for example: I honestly didn't do anything wrong besides trust some employees that I shouldn't have trusted as far as I could throw them, but I realized that that was my signature on those documents, and what happened was basically my fault, even though I didn't steal anything. I could be held liable.

So....I can take the plea bargain, which was a fairly small fine, a suspended sentence of three years (don't get in any more trouble during probation, and the suspended sentence disappears), and be on unsupervised probation for three years. OR I could take my chances with a trial, and possibly go to prison for three years.

Its a no-brainer. However, now I'm labeled a felon, can't get a damn job at McDonald's, and have that on my record until the day I die....and my story is far from unique. I would even say it's the norm.

I have nothing but contempt for what they call justice in this country.

In the UK plea bargains don't exist. The only thing is you can get a proportionate reduction in sentence for pleading guilty before the trial starts. You don't know what the sentence will be although your defence lawyer can give an educated estimate.

Even if you are convicted of a crime the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act means that your slate is wiped clean after a number of years depending on the length or type of sentence - unless you apply for a job with children, a justice agency or social work in which case you have to declare your conviction in confidence. That Act is designed to ensure that once you have paid the penalty for your crime you can become a normal citizen again. Obviously some crimes such as rape and murder are not covered.

Judges, Justices of the Peace, Policemen and Prosecutors are not elected but appointed. Some local politicians are also magistrates but the system deters political appointments. They see both as duties serving the public and the pay or allowances are pathetic - no one makes a living from being a magistrate of local politician. Judges once appointed are independent of the Executive.

Our legal system has flaws. Many people think that it is far too lenient with repeat offenders. The probation service is overworked, underfunded and expected to do to much. The Prison Service is overcrowded and that means that rehabilitation courses that prisoners should get are impossible to run. We need more resources for the whole Justice system but it's unpopular. Being tough on crime sounds good. Paying for the services to help convicted people change away from crime isn't popular. Treating people who have mental health and drug problems should be a priority to reduce offending but the system is much more likely to send them to prison where their problems can be ignored.

Here we tend to spend a lot of time and money deciding whether feral youths have been guilty of yet another offence. At a jury trial the jurors are not told of any previous offences unless the defence is stupid enough to claim "good character" in which case the prosecution can bring the previous record into court. In every case the presumption is "innocent of this charge" until proven to the magistrates or jury beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty even if the defendant has been found guilty of 20 similar offences in recent years.

I was Foreman of a jury when three young men were charged with going equipped for robbery, driving a stolen car and attempting to evade arrest including speeding and reckless driving. The jurors seriously considered whether they "had been set up by the police" and "was this their first offence?" and had the prosecution been over-zealous. Eventually we found them guilty on all counts. A couple of the jurors had reservations but weren't unconvinced enough to go against the majority.

When I delivered the verdict the young men didn't seem surprised. One by one their lawyers stood up and asked for other offences to be considered. Between the three of them they asked for over 200 separate offences to be considered. Two of them were also due to be in court on the following week for different offences. They pleaded guilty to those as well. The court clerk read out their list of previous convictions. That took an hour. The jurors who had expressed reservations were shocked.

The sentences? About 100 hours of community service each and suspended jail terms. They ALREADY had suspended jail terms which were not implemented even after all that.

Yet we imprison people for not paying council taxes and for being mentally ill beyond the control of the National Health Service.

We think we have too many in jail. We do because we don't have effectively funded alternatives that might break the cycle of offending.

Og (convicted of a motoring offence in 1968 which I don't have to declare...)

 

[Pure]

hi cloudy,

good posting!

something about US style 'law and order' politics is involved here, as well as the phrase 'tough on crime.'

i suspect prisons are now an industry that feeds on the poor and the minorities, just like the 'money markets,' 'cheap credit offerers' and other businesses.

up here in Canada, as you probably know, the former PM succeeded in getting a 'superprison' set up in his home riding, though it was remote from major cities: it was just a good business, employer of lots of people, etc.

 

[cloudy]

Even if you are convicted of a crime the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act means that your slate is wiped clean after a number of years depending on the length or type of sentence - unless you apply for a job with children, a justice agency or social work in which case you have to declare your conviction in confidence. That Act is designed to ensure that once you have paid the penalty for your crime you can become a normal citizen again. Obviously some crimes such as rape and murder are not covered.

Canada does this too....its not an automatic thing, though, but rather you have to apply for a "pardon," and that wipes your record clean.

Not here. Jeez, no wonder the recidivism rate among felons is so damned high - they make it so that you can never really get a decent job for the rest of your life. If you are someone that has a family to support, you're just shit out of luck, so they go back to doing what they were doing before that got them in trouble in the first place. Its the only choice that our "justice" system leaves them.

Yet we imprison people for not paying council taxes

Yep, tons of folks go to jail for that now, too.

I saw a show recently that profiled three women serving ungodly long sentences because of their boyfriends/husbands. The men were drug dealers in each case, and their girlfriend/wife just got sort of caught in the net when the police went after the guys.

The weirdest thing? All three women got significantly heavier prison sentences than their drug dealer boyfriends/husbands got. I think most had been sentenced to 25+ years, and in two of the three cases, they had absolutely no idea what their men were involved in, and in all three cases they cooperated fully with the police. I don't call that justice.

The thing that gets to me about my case is that the police or the company I worked for would never have even known that there was theft going on if I hadn't brought it to their attention.

When I figured out what was happening, I went to the police station, and talked to a detective there...he was the husband of someone I'd worked with previously...didn't really know him that well, but felt comfortable enough taking the info I had to him.

I explained how it was being done, who had been doing it...even took the paperwork so that I could fully explain it. I told him, and these are probably damn close to my exact words, "Look, I haven't taken anything from the company, but I realize my signature is on this paperwork, so if there's a prosecution, I'm going to get charged just like the guilty ones, so I want to fix this. Would you please get in touch with our security department, explain to them what's going on, and let them know that although I wasn't stealing, I'm willing to pay the money back to the company, so that I can keep from being charged." (I had never been in trouble with the law beyond speeding tickets at this time, and would've liked for it to stay that way)

He said he would talk to them, and it was left at that, with him telling me he would call me as soon as he'd talked it over with them.

I never heard from him, and after about two weeks I started trying to call him, and even went by the police station to try and catch him there. I swear he had to be avoiding me.

Well, I never did hear anything, and about a year later I moved to Raleigh, North Carolina. Let's fast forward about five years...

I go to get my driver's license renewed, and I get arrested for....you guessed it, theft.

The end result was that I paid the company back the money that had been stolen, as I had originally proposed. The only difference between my plan/offer and what ended up happening is the company had to wait a lot longer to get their money back, and I now have a criminal record.

I'll probably never do "the right thing" like that again. Not worth it.

 

[cloudy]

hi cloudy,

good posting!

something about US style 'law and order' politics is involved here, as well as the phrase 'tough on crime.'

i suspect prisons are now an industry that feeds on the poor and the minorities, just like the 'money markets,' 'cheap credit offerers' and other businesses.

up here in Canada, as you probably know, the former PM succeeded in getting a 'superprison' set up in his home riding, though it was remote from major cities: it was just a good business, employer of lots of people, etc.

"Tough on crime" goes with "family values" like peanut butter goes with jelly.

America has become a nation of wimps and scaredy-cats. It sucks.

 

[oggbashan]

...

The end result was that I paid the company back the money that had been stolen, as I had originally proposed. The only difference between my plan/offer and what ended up happening is the company had to wait a lot longer to get their money back, and I now have a criminal record.

I'll probably never do "the right thing" like that again. Not worth it.

One of my friends was pressurised by her lover, employer and landlord (the same person) into going into a marriage ceremony with an illegal immigrant so that the immigrant could get resident's status. Once she had done that her lover dumped her. She realised that she had been used and went to the police.

She went to jail for bigamy. Her fake "husband" was deported. Her lover walked free with a fine.

But now she has a good job - working for a Member of Parliament. Would your local Senator or Congressman employ a convicted felon? He even defended her when the local Press "outed" her saying "She did the crime. She's done her time. She's paid.". He didn't say that she was a victim but that is the reality.

There are some crimes that are difficult to live down; some where the likelihood of reoffending is high but many where once they have paid for their offence there is no reason why that person can't become a normal member of society. It is much better for society to rehabilitate than to make it impossible for the ex-offender to live without crime.

Og

 

[neonlyte]

Education.

 

[sr71plt]

Yes, the number is staggering. But there's something a little surreal about this thread--blaming this on the justice/prison system. I rather thought the justice system was just the poor guy who had to hold the ball for, most important, those doing crime and then, yes, a legislative system that may define crime and the punishment for same a little to broadly here and there and, flip side, puts guns in the hands of the irresponsible in proportion that is way out of whack of what other countries (with, not insignificantly, lower crime/prison rates) do. And then there's the whole "gotta have more toys/pleasure and don't wanna work for them" American society ethic, which helps feed the crime. Really a headscratcher to finger the justice system for this. Although I guess that would be the perspective of those doing the crime.

 

[cloudy]

Yes, the number is staggering. But there's something a little surreal about this thread--blaming this on the justice/prison system. I rather thought the justice system was just the poor guy who had to hold the ball for, most important, those doing crime and then, yes, a legislative system that may define crime and the punishment for same a little to broadly here and there and, flip side, puts guns in the hands of the irresponsible in proportion that is way out of whack of what other countries (with, not insignificantly, lower crime/prison rates) do. And then there's the whole "gotta have more toys/pleasure and don't wanna work for them" American society ethic, which helps feed the crime. Really a headscratcher to finger the justice system for this. Although I guess that would be the perspective of those doing the crime.

And, I care what you think, because......?

 

[sr71plt]

And, I care what you think, because......?

Because you keep going postal on me from out of the blue. That's an obvious index of "care," toots. It's especially meaningful that you do so, because you claim you have me on ignore--which pretty much reflects the truth of much of what you claim.

 

[cloudy]

Because you keep going postal on me from out of the blue. That's an obvious index of "care," toots. It's especially meaningful that you do so, because you claim you have me on ignore--which pretty much reflects the truth of much of what you claim.

Let's see....I started this thread, and you post in it, accusing me of following you around?

Dear lord, are you really that fucking stupid?

 

[cantdog]

Sr, the proportion of Americans is one in a hundred, but did you actually read the article? It's short enough. Take a look at the proportion of black males. Of course the discussion is about the justice system. You'd not be scratching that head if you'd ever been in the dock.

 

[sr71plt]

Sr, the proportion of Americans is one in a hundred, but did you actually read the article? It's short enough. Take a look at the proportion of black males. Of course the discussion is about the justice system. You'd not be scratching that head if you'd ever been in the dock.

No, I've never been in the dock. But the proportional number of blacks is also not a justice system issue, I don't think. It's a societal issue. Whether or not it's politically correct to say so, I believe there are more blacks and Hispanics in prison because, for societal reasons, they do the most crime. That said, I do believe whites do more crime proportionally than they are incarcerated for--but I believe that's a societal issue too.

But at the base, I still say that people are in prison because they committed a crime--and that it takes the spotlight away from that glaring truth if that isn't accepted as the major reasons the prisons are full.

 

[cantdog]

Therefore Americans are the most criminal society in history?

 

[sr71plt]

Let's see....I started this thread, and you post in it, accusing me of following you around?

Dear lord, are you really that fucking stupid?

Ah, no. I posted to the substance of the thread--just like the other posters above me. You chose to base a personal attack on that--as you quite often do. And you do follow me around and get all trailer trashee from out of the blue, yes, indeedy, you do. Hardly a sign that you don't "care"--or that you have me on ignore (and I would so prefer that you did have me on ignore--there'd be a whole lot fewer childish lashings out by you).