Safewords and Soft Limits

I have had an interesting discussion about the usefulness of soft limits when there is a safeword in place.

The idea being if a safeword is present why do you need to agree on soft limits. Whenever playing, before you go too far as a PYL the safeword can be used by the pyl. Does a safeword negate the need of a soft limit or do they complement each other?

What are your ideas and thoughts about this?

Francisco.

catalina_francisco said:

I have had an interesting discussion about the usefulness of soft limits when there is a safeword in place.

The idea being if a safeword is present why do you need to agree on soft limits. Whenever playing, before you go too far as a PYL the safeword can be used by the pyl. Does a safeword negate the need of a soft limit or do they complement each other?

What are your ideas and thoughts about this?

Francisco.

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Hmmm...just because it's a soft limit doesn't mean it shouldn't be recognized as such. I think the two compliment each other. It lets the PYL know there is something the pyl is hesitant about trying.

I guess it really goes back to the old standby of communication. Talk can never be negated by safe words.

If there is a soft limit the PYL is going to push, the knowledge that it IS a soft limit will let them know not to try to take it too far too fast. And if the safe word is used, will know some extra aftercare may be needed (depending upon the reason it is a soft limit, ie past relationship baggage, childhood trauma, etc).

But, that's just my two dinars on the subject Which is a good one, btw. I look forward to reading the responses.

in my mind i see soft limits as things i am sensative to, that might upset me...by having it as a soft limit the PYL would know to approach with sensativety.

if the activety was just stepped into like any other then there would be distress before the safeword was said.

guess it depends on the people involved.

xx

I don't care to know a sub's soft limits for any reason other than the love of knowledge. I've found that a person's body language speaks truer than their words anyhow. Until I hear the safeword, its my way or the highway.

dolf said:

in my mind i see soft limits as things i am sensative to, that might upset me...by having it as a soft limit the PYL would know to approach with sensativety.

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Well written, minus the typo ... and don't try to bs me with "the Brit/Aussie" way to spell sensitive/sensitivity.

AngelicAssassin said:

Well written, minus the typo ... and don't try to bs me with "the Brit/Aussie" way to spell sensitive/sensitivity.

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wouldn't attempt to bs you hon. i'm getting lazy with the spell check again huh
xx

I like to know, personally, what I'm getting into, call it a knowledge junkie thing. I also find that I pay more attention to body/language/in scene signals, but for me it's always fascinating to see how someone sees herself, even if it's not always accurate.

M and I are good with communication as far as any limits go. If we are easing into things or in the moments of play, I use the word yellow and M has learned how much I can take for the most part. But so far it is really only used when we push limits and how much pain I can take.

catalina_francisco said:

I have had an interesting discussion about the usefulness of soft limits when there is a safeword in place.

The idea being if a safeword is present why do you need to agree on soft limits. Whenever playing, before you go too far as a PYL the safeword can be used by the pyl. Does a safeword negate the need of a soft limit or do they complement each other?

What are your ideas and thoughts about this?

Francisco.

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Having both is good. As a top I would hate to play with someone to be surprised in the middle of play by a soft limit when they used a safeword. I like to push and push (especially to a point that surprises them) but not break. Having a sub call red means I went too far too fast and that I don't like.

I've usually played with safe words in place, and, I don't use them. Perhaps a quirky point of view, but if I had to use the safe word I would feel a true break down in communication - reading body language, as well as in simply feeling able and/or willing to openly and directly express whatever was going on. That's it - we have a major problem and I only want to say one word to you to make you stop. My current play partner says "oh fuck" is my start towards yellow, so perhaps I do have an unofficial one that I actually do use but it’s a spontaneous, honest expression.

Soft limits can be tricky. There are so many possible permeations in crossing or stretching a soft limit. One path may be hardly noticeable and another may be crossing into territory that feels possibly harmful to the relationship or person. If I have only one word to say to you, it's a bad situation. I know it's supposed to be a tool of communication, but I'd rather know that a partner is aware enough of what is possibly occurring by being there and that I don't have to talk in specific code. It's worked quite well so far. If I were with a partner who relied heavily upon safe words for clues/major points of communication or it was simply part of their kink to incite safe words I would obviously have to change my tune.

For me the shared knowledge of the soft limit and having open communication, not necessitated by one word, work best. Not to say that safe words are useless, but my feel for them is that it’s a shutdown point. I no longer trust the person I’m playing with and I have retained any control given.

Thank you all for your responses, my line of thinking comes very close to that of lunarsubmissive and dolf. Communication is essential for a good relationship be it BDSM, vanilla or miscellaneous. Talking, exchanging information is important, knowing what the soft limits are is very important.

Hard limit are normally based on fear, moral issues and phobias. IMHO a Dominant should always respect a sub's/slave's hard limits, these are not to be tested or explored. Several PYL believe that their pyl is not allowed to have safe words once they become their property. This is primarily associated with TPE (total power exchange) and master/slave situations. Catalina for example does not have a safeword since it falls outside the margins of our relationship.

To me knowing my partners soft limits becomes very important since Catalina does not have any safety nets to protect her from her Master’s mistakes. In the occasions when we want to push her boundaries we have used something I call a warning word, a word with which she can warn me that she has passed or is very close to passing what she can take. Of course the decision is still mine to take but she has to power to warn me of what she is feeling. I have to say she has never has had to use the warning word.

I have to agree here with Lark Sparrow that would the warning word or safeword had to be used I would feel I had failed in my task as a PYL.

Francisco.

Soft limits? I am unfamiliar with this term. If you have discussed your hard limits and have a safe word - what are soft limits for? I'm afraid if I told my Dom about any soft limits he would definately go for that the next time!

First, I take "yellowing" as where the submissive is not refusing but is (1) suggesting this isn't the best time or (2) requesting that we move more slowly or (3) wanting to discuss things first.

I have grown comfortable with the style of sticking to fairly established activities Sunday through Thursday. These will be non-controversial and don't require extensive discussions. The weekends are for the more experimental things where better communication is needed.

As for soft limits and safewords, I can't keep track of when she has a doctor appointment. Or I might not have connected a dinnertime discussion of pressures at work with the idea that she needs to catch up on her sleep. I am not greedy about fulfilling my own desires to her detriment and want her to let me know about these things. And "yellowing" is preferable to exhaustive daily reviews of checklists in a calculating clinical style.

Again, this is not like the vanilla "oh, honey, I have a headache so please not tonight" joke. I don't want her going to a doctor's appointment looking like her boyfriend beats her up. And subdrop happens more frequently when the submissive is fatigued, and since I support her career, I don't want her performing poorly during critical times due to what we did the night before.

Mr Blonde said:

First, I take "yellowing" as where the submissive is not refusing but is (1) suggesting this isn't the best time or (2) requesting that we move more slowly or (3) wanting to discuss things first.
*snippage*

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I tend to use "blue" when I need to slow down. "Yellow" is used when I'm really close to the point I can't take it anymore.

Of course, there is also "SDS" - "Same Damn Spot" *giggles*

lunarsubmissive said:

Of course, there is also "SDS" - "Same Damn Spot" *giggles*

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oi, that is the worst, and they know it, I hate myself when I have to 'yellow' because it gets to be too much, but I know it is part of the process at the point in time. I get frustraited with myself. I want to be a "leather bottom" I think I've heard it called, and move up in what I can take but because of schedules and such M and I can't scene as much as we would both like to.

Usually we are very perceptive of how the other feels in the situation, but when we are pushing limits and levels, M and I feel the need for a word cue because the tears and screams and such are part of playing. I like having a clear line and cute, it helps alot.

No one is perfect, and mistakes could be made so I feel if there isn't a sign/word assigned to the scene, no matter how well a person knows me, I lose the control I have gained in my journey in submission. I don't think I could ever give over complete control in the Master/slave relationship... but to each their own and that makes me very happy.

I do hate that it is a distracting system, but it is difficult to have your cake and eat it too... and I've accepted that.

......

......

I have found Safewords to be of ultimate importance, even if never used. They give the sub an emergency exit, which mentally makes her feel less on edge about submitting.

In fact, I always make a point of telling a sub that using the safeword is absolutely ok and I will never resent her for it. It's all trickery though, of course, as I find that the more a sub realizes she has the safeword as an option, the less she wants to use it.

Some definations according to safewords.org

Safeword
A word or words agreed to before a BDSM-themed scene begins so that a bottom can signal to the top to ease up or to stop the scene entirely.

soft limit
A negotiable limit.

hard limit
A (typically) non-negotiable limit.

limit
That point beyond which a player in a BDSM game does not consent to go. Can either indicate a particular activity that someone cannot cope with or finds a turnoff, or a point reached in play at which the stimulation ceases to be enjoyable or satisfying, or becomes impossible to cope with psychologically.

Francisco.

negotiating? really.........

crazybbwgirl said:

negotiating? really.........

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Yup...Call it negotiations...Fuck, call it Fred..
It's that conversation you have at some point, where you discuss things like hard limits, soft limits, physical problems, allergies, things that make you lose your shit, you know, stuff like that.
BTW..This is mostly for the assorted new folks who read this board.
*sigh* (And if you will excuse the frustration)
Though I swear, I'm gonna invite the next "I have no limits" wannabe newbie to a play session.
Is there really something wrong with saying " Do this stuff for a while before you say things like that"???

As for soft limits. Yes I want to know what they are. I have found that there is usually a reason for them. And soft limits CAN turn hard if you aren't reasonably careful.

EKVITKAR said:

And soft limits CAN turn hard if you aren't reasonably careful.

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Soft limits can turn into hard limits if not treated with proper care. This is a very good point, has anyone some experience with this?

Francisco.

Soft limits for me are things I haven't tried yet, but am curious about and want to try (of which there are lots). I like to know I have a safe word for both our sakes, because He has no idea of how I will react to something, and neither do I. I do trust Him to test those limits but if something goes wrong for me I need to be able to safe word out, and we can then discuss what happened and work towards a better outcome.

EKVITKAR said:

Yup...Call it negotiations...Fuck, call it Fred..
It's that conversation you have at some point, where you discuss things like hard limits, soft limits, physical problems, allergies, things that make you lose your shit, you know, stuff like that.
BTW..This is mostly for the assorted new folks who read this board.
*sigh* (And if you will excuse the frustration)
Though I swear, I'm gonna invite the next "I have no limits" wannabe newbie to a play session.
Is there really something wrong with saying " Do this stuff for a while before you say things like that"???

As for soft limits. Yes I want to know what they are. I have found that there is usually a reason for them. And soft limits CAN turn hard if you aren't reasonably careful.

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Ahh- ok - now I see what you're talking about. I'm still stumbling with the terminology. We did most of that discussion via phone/computer before we ever met in person I guess.

catalina_francisco said:

Soft limits can turn into hard limits if not treated with proper care. This is a very good point, has anyone some experience with this?

Francisco.

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Not with that per se, but I have seen subs change from soft to a hard with one player or another. To clarify: the subbie had a minor fear of not being able to breathe. When she played with me, she considered a gag to be a soft limit. She doesn't like them, but will try it if I do it. (I don't like them much either, though, cause I like to hear the begging and the screaming and all that.) Another PYL I know does not like to plan scenes ahead of time. He likes to wander from point A to point Z and stop at as many places in between as he reasonably can and he likes breath play. All of the sudden gags became a hard limit, even though she'd already negotiated for no breath play.

And of course occasionally, when you're working with someone you trust, a hard limit may become a softer one. When I'm in a long term relationship, I tend to pull out the limit list every 4-6 months and have her do it again. I've seen some interesting changes. Recently, someone came up and asked me to push a hard limit because it bothers him. He doesn't like it and he wants to try to deal with it. I would never intentionally push a hard limit, except in case like this. I'm still thinking long and hard about how the hell I can pull this off.

<rant>
The problem I have with safewords is that quite frequently, pyl's don't want to use them. Either they're too busy trying to please me (or the PYL) so they soldier on, or you have the people who literally for whatever reason cannot say no. It's their prior training or mindset or something. And then you have the cases where they get into an emotional state where they can't, or they get subspaced. If I screw up the last two, it's my fault and I need to have my ass kicked, please. The first one annoys the hell out of me; it's borderline dishonest and I tend not to deal with these people in a bdsm sense. I don't do stoic, kids. Not telling me that there's something going wrong and bitching about later is not my issue. If you acted like it was all groovy and I went too far because you intentionally did not tell me you were having issues, that's lying, and you just became compliant in your injury. The middle one, the ones who can't say no for some reason. They're a dangerous bunch and I tend to avoid them, too. I guess my real issue about safewords is that some people tend to regard them as a magic word and all the sudden everything is right and good with the world and life is all safe and happy and smurphy and shit. They're not. They do make things a little safer for a person, but this is not hearts and flowers and junior prom. This is blood and sex and tears and primal energy, and it is fucking dangerous sometimes. Safewords are good, but viewing them as some sort of magical incantation to make bdsm all pink and fuzzy is stupid. Don't tell me about your magic safeword and how it's going to save the world; just tell me where to send the flowers.

</rant>

Sorry for wandering of into tangent/rant land. In answer to the original comment about soft limits and safewords. If you're honest with me about where your limits lie (hard and soft), I don't worry as much about a safeword. I assign them anyway, in hopes that it'll get used, but it's not a big deal if I know what I'm dealing with.

I am sooo down with Kat's rant.

That's a big beef I have with the safeword thing. Some people will use them in distress and some won't. I don't need the fallout of doing something wrong when it was never indicated to me it was wrong during the scene, it sure helps to know when you are in charged territory beforehand, in plain English.

And that charged territory can be really mundane and arbitrary - I played with a man who loved every kind of sick torture I could think up, and loved spanking, but absolutely went to pieces if someone used a wood spoon on him. Go figure.

Safewords are pointless without more info. If it's a case of SDS, and someone just keeps saying "yellow! yellow!" through gritted teeth, well I'd probably call the scene and get frustrated. I need to know what the fuck is going on.

I give safewords, but I always tell people I prefer English dialogue and that they needn't worry about being disrespectful, I will tell them if they cross the line.