closed Thread

[Noor]

I wasn’t claiming that Jews are superior with my statement. I meant that it seems that anything that goes against the established views of the government of Israel on this conflict are labeled as anti-Semitic.
[/
Anyone who does not want Israel to survive is antisemitic, it’s more than a label.

 

[Noor]

Many Jews within and outside Israel dislike Netanyahu, if you remember the demonstrations in Israel against the government before Oct 7.
Right now Israel fights for its survival, when it’s safe to do so, I’m pretty sure they will oust Netanyahu and the Likud party.

 

[SevMax2]

Many Jews within and outside Israel dislike Netanyahu, if you remember the demonstrations in Israel against the government before Oct 7.
Right now Israel fights for its survival, when it’s safe to do so, I’m pretty sure they will oust Netanyahu and the Likud party.

Netanyahu miserably failed to protect Israel at a critical juncture. He should be removed for that reason alone, if nothing else. I personally don't trust any of the statistics provided by UNRWA or the Gazan Ministry of Health. I think that they are dressing up many combatants in civvies, removing their guns, and painting them as innocent civilians. That being said, Netanyahu is widely responsible for having lapsed in security enough to allow this to happen on his watch. I support the right of Israel to defend itself and exist, but I do not support Likud and its foreign or domestic policies. It's time for him to retire...or be fired by the Israeli electorate.

 

[butters]

if Israel doesn't want to continue to exist, then it needs to also consider, effectively, the two-state solution that allows Palestine to also exist in its own right.

Palestinians and Arabs in the surrounding nations also need to embrace this as the only workable solution; it will permit both nations sovereignty over their own land.

whilst arabian forces want to see an end to Israel as a whole (it is claimed), and Israel's determined to continue reaching forward, overrunning and destroying everything in Gaza and the West Bank in attempts to effectively eradicate Palestine, there can be no peace.

 

[Noor]

if Israel doesn't want to continue to exist, then it needs to also consider, effectively, the two-state solution that allows Palestine to also exist in its own right.

Palestinians and Arabs in the surrounding nations also need to embrace this as the only workable solution; it will permit both nations sovereignty over their own land.

whilst arabian forces want to see an end to Israel as a whole (it is claimed), and Israel's determined to continue reaching forward, overrunning and destroying everything in Gaza and the West Bank in attempts to effectively eradicate Palestine, there can be no peace.

Perhaps you are unaware of the Palestinians repeated rejection of the two state solution, they want one state that includes Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, and they want it free of Jews, Christians and non Muslims, that is what from the river to the sea means. Israel was completely out of Gaza, down to removing historic graves from 2005-2023, which is as close to a two state solution as they could do without a Palestinians two state agreement.
You can google many sources on this and translated historical documents.
This article lays it out pretty clearly, but the information is out that, just look.
https://africachinapresscentre.org/...-its-state-they-want-israel-out-of-existence/

 

[Noor]

if Israel doesn't want to continue to exist, then it needs to also consider, effectively, the two-state solution that allows Palestine to also exist in its own right.

Palestinians and Arabs in the surrounding nations also need to embrace this as the only workable solution; it will permit both nations sovereignty over their own land.

whilst arabian forces want to see an end to Israel as a whole (it is claimed), and Israel's determined to continue reaching forward, overrunning and destroying everything in Gaza and the West Bank in attempts to effectively eradicate Palestine, there can be no peace.

Also they are not attempting to eradicate Palestinians, they are removing the ongoing threat to Israel.
Take a look at the attacks on Israel that come from Gaza and the West Bank. Israel is getting rid of the terrorists ability to attack.

 

[deckardB26354]

Also they are not attempting to eradicate Palestinians, they are removing the ongoing threat to Israel.

You’re correct. They’re attempting to eradicate Hamas—and failing miserably. Why? Because when they bomb a hospital, or school, or housing unit to get that ONE Hamas member that might be there, they also happen to kill entire families. Those survivors of the attacks more often than not, I’d assume, will join Hamas in revenge.

This is a never ending cycle of death and destruction until Hamas is eradicated. They will only be eradicated when anyone that can be a Hamas terrorist is dead. That means Israel will eradicate every Palestinian to make sure that Hamas is destroyed.

 

[Noor]

You’re correct. They’re attempting to eradicate Hamas—and failing miserably. Why? Because when they bomb a hospital, or school, or housing unit to get that ONE Hamas member that might be there, they also happen to kill entire families. Those survivors of the attacks more often than not, I’d assume, will join Hamas in revenge.

This is a never ending cycle of death and destruction until Hamas is eradicated. They will only be eradicated when anyone that can be a Hamas terrorist is dead. That means Israel will eradicate every Palestinian to make sure that Hamas is destroyed.

Israel is killing less civilians per combatant than any previous war in history.
They have no intention at all of killing all the Palestinians.

 

[deckardB26354]

Israel is killing less civilians per combatant than any previous war in history.
They have no intention at all of killing all the Palestinians.

Where are you getting your information? Because I’d like to see your numbers. Because they either came from the IDF or Hamas—both are completely trustworthy when they hand out information.

 

[butters]

Also they are not attempting to eradicate Palestinians, they are removing the ongoing threat to Israel.
Take a look at the attacks on Israel that come from Gaza and the West Bank. Israel is getting rid of the terrorists ability to attack.

if they are not 'attempting to eradicate Palestinians', they're doing a damned good job of failing in Gaza... what's left is almost exclusively unlivable

I 100% concur that Israel has the right to defend itself; that doesn't mean I accept it has the right to obliterate all infrastructure, withhold aid & food, tell people to move to 'safe areas they then bomb the shit out of and so on and so on...

 

[butters]

about those statistics:

Reuters Fact check—2024
https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/...-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/

A misleading comparison of casualty rates per air strike has spread on social media suggesting that Israel has a relatively low casualty rate in Gaza compared with other 21st-century conflicts.

The graph in the posts presents an unsourced and artificially low figure for Gaza deaths due to air strikes alongside rates calculated by a UK charity for the deadliest air strikes during battles in Iraq and Syria. But that charity’s own calculations for all three conflicts show air-strike casualties in Gaza to be much higher, closer to the Iraq and Syria figures, and to exceed global averages, according to the organisation’s executive director and an independent researcher.

View attachment 2395826
Data is quoted as being sourced from AOAV and IDF... but not only does the graph reflect published AOAV data that pertains solely to Syria and Iraq, the posts used to distribute the 'lowest casualties ever' message ' “grossly misrepresent and misuse” AOAV data, Iain Overton, opens new tab, the charity’s executive director, said.'

 

[RobDownSouth]

US report found that Israel blocked food and medical aid to Gaza, but the Biden administration kept weapons flowing to Israel​

Israel is a morally bankrupt nation.

Someone will be along shortly to insist that depriving civilians of food and medicine is not prima facie evidence of "genocide", technically speaking.

 

[lessOHmo]

Good

Starve em

Save $$$ on ammo

 

[Rightguide]

Corpse desecration seems to be the "hot" trend in 2024

I didn't say it was right, but I could see how two tired grunts thinking about humping 200 lbs of dead weight down several flights of stairs might have influenced their actions. It's probably a good time to remember who it is that tosses your friends off of tall buildings.

Given your full-throated defense of convicted felon Donald J Trump's desecration of graves at Arlington National Cemetery for a cheap political stunt, it stands to reason you'd also support the IDF desecrating corpses of their enemies, if in fact the enemy were actually dead.

Trump desecrated no graves in Arlington National Cemetery. It's unmanly for you to falsely claim he did so.

 

[Rightguide]

US report found that Israel blocked food and medical aid to Gaza, but the Biden administration kept weapons flowing to Israel​

Israel is a morally bankrupt nation.

Someone will be along shortly to insist that depriving civilians of food and medicine is not prima facie evidence of "genocide", technically speaking.

Biden has slow-walked those weapons to Israel and continues to do so to this day. Those weapon deliveries are condition-based. The Israelis have said they will go it alone if necessary. You see Biden takes his orders from the Iranians;. Joe Biden has funded the Iranian war against Israel.

 

[butters]

Israel pushes Al Jazeera out of the West Bank, having already done it in Gaza

 

[CherryCupcake]

Let us please remember that neither Netanyahu or Hamas wants an end to this war.

Hamas is winning the war. Yes, they have lost a lot of people. Gaza, which they governed is largely in ruins. It's people who aren't Hamas are largely starving and unhoused. But they would suggest that the image of Israel as a tiny island of Western Democracy surrounded by hostile neighbors is gone. Those who still support what Israel has done fall into several categories. Jews, for whom is their last refuge in world which has proven it can go madly anti-Semitic at the drop of a hat and has used industrial methods to exterminate them. Fundamentalist Christians, who want Jesus to come and save them from having to improve the world themselves. And Older Americans who remember the forties and fifties and see those possibilities returning.

Israel has lost the young. Their arguments that they are all about attacking terrorists can no longer be accepted on face value for the rational, and never accepted at all for many. Hamas has won the war already if you follow Clausewitz's maxim that "War is politics carried on beyond normal means." Israel has been defeated politically and can never recover its image with many, and possibly most of the World. Yes, lots of innocent Palestinians, but if you're a certain flavor of Muslim fundamentalist, they've been instantly elevated to the exalted status of Matyrs, and are thus residing in Paradise, eating dates-a-plenty. They really don't care how many Palestinians die, and they knew it would be like this the day they attacked Israel on October 7th. They knew it would be like this and they did it anyway.

But let us not overly praise the poor Israelis. They elected a far-right government for whom there already is a Palestinian state and that's Jordan. They do wish to ethnically cleanse the West Bank and Gaza, and probably don't even want the Muslims who are Israeli citizens to stay. You don't think so? Well the Netanyahu administration spent the last decade doing everything it could to undermine the Palestinian Authority as a negotiating partner. They systematically shifted water rights from Palestinians in favor of Jewish Settlers. Army units are now based in new settlements so when settlers go on a rampage and kll their Arab neighbors and burn their homes, well react and you meet the Israeli Army. Settlers get a free pass in all but the cases that draw international attention.

And fuck the United States. When Obama was President Israel announced a major increase in settlement building on the very day Biden was scheduled to arrive for a visit. The very day. Of course, it was treated as 'excuse me, we didn't mean it that way' but it was really the Israeli right telling the United States, we'er going to do whatever we want because your fundamentalist Christians will back us even if we commit genocide. And they will. I had a friend who went to a Christian college and asked his Professor if Christians needed to support Israel even in the event of genocide. And the answer was yes because that's what will bring Jesus back.

Netanyahu, who like Trump has been indicted for several crimes, is deeply unpopular and most think that if he had to stand for election he'd lose badly. So he has no political incentive to end the war. in fact, it is hardly unreasonable to suggest the reason for all reason escalation against Hezbollah is less about what's happening on that border. it's about keeping up the war, and hanging on to power.

There really are no angels in this fight. But there sure are plenty of victims.

 

[lessOHmo]

Israel pushes Al Jazeera out of the West Bank, having already done it in Gaza

Good

 

[butters]

hostage's family voices their concerns about Israel's north-bound actions:

“Hamas is still in Gaza; the hostages have not come back, but, practically speaking, we have finished the war in Gaza,” said Udi Goren, whose cousin Tal Haimi was killed by Hamas and whose body is still held hostage.

“Right now, all the military focus has moved north, and we are basically finishing the fighting in the South without attaining any of the goals that were set for the war,”

“The fear is that this will turn into a chronic pain that we become accustomed to,” he explained...

“The press, global public opinion, and Israeli public opinion are moving to the recent events, and I feel that, surprisingly easily, they just forgot that [the hostage situation] exists.

“If you pay attention to public attention, to what is happening in the news studios, to what is filling the background, what the IDF spokesperson is talking about, what the IDF chief of staff is talking about, it’s all Lebanon now,” he added.

“But we did not imagine, in our worst nightmares, that we would simply finish the war without [attaining any of its goals], and we would just move to fight in the North.
“I heard the heads of the security establishment saying that the IDF has completed its job in Gaza. From here, the full responsibility is to exchange the military accomplishments for diplomatic accomplishments and so the full responsibility moves to the political echelon – to the government,” he said.

he continues on to explain his frustration about the peace treaty that had been on the table as little as a month ago, with hamas having agreed to stipulations, but now it seems out of reach with new proposals being put forward that people know are never going to be accepted.

the pain these people must be living through, since Oct.7th's massacre and hostage grab, with dead family members' bodies as yet not returned and with living family still held in extremely dangerous conditions, cannot be imagined at a realistic level.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=30fb728416a14ef2b309236f01569484&ei=95

the pain these people must be living through, since Oct.7th's massacre and hostage grab, with dead family members' bodies as yet not returned, with living family still held in

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

hostage's family voices their concerns about Israel's north-bound actions:










he continues on to explain his frustration about the peace treaty that had been on the table as little as a month ago, with hamas having agreed to stipulations, but now it seems out of reach with new proposals being put forward that people know are never going to be accepted.

the pain these people must be living through, since Oct.7th's massacre and hostage grab, with dead family members' bodies as yet not returned and with living family still held in extremely dangerous conditions, cannot be imagined at a realistic level.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=30fb728416a14ef2b309236f01569484&ei=95

the pain these people must be living through, since Oct.7th's massacre and hostage grab, with dead family members' bodies as yet not returned, with living family still held in

For months Israel prioritized saving the hostages in Gaza in the south over the plight of the Israelis being killed and driven from their homes by Hezbollah's unrelenting missile attacks in the north. Hopefully, the international community will finally pressure Hamas, Hezbollah, and their backers to release the hostages and stop attacking Israel so peace can return to the middle east.

 

[butters]

The UN says the attacks have forced more than 90,000 people in Lebanon from their homes, with around 100 civilians and 366 Hezbollah fighters killed in Israeli strikes. In Israel, officials say 60,000 civilians have had to abandon their homes and 33 people have been killed, including 10 civilians, because of attacks by Hezbollah.

the displacement and murder of civilian populations is unacceptable, no matter which side they occur on. It breeds fear, resentment, and lends itself to radicalisation. Not helpful.

Israel says they have to move into Lebanon to stop hezbollah attacking them; hezbollah says when Israel stops attacking Gaza then they'll stop bombing the North.

Israel had the ability to get the hostages back; multiple countries pressured both sides for a ceasefire to achieve this. Israel decided, instead, to expand attacks on hezbollah as a preferred route.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv2gj544x65o

Huge swathes of land in both countries has seen burn damage, with Israeli land taking the worst of it:
hezbollah's attacks on Israeli land have largely been about destroying agricultural land; it knows that the Iron Dome doesn't target missiles it deems as not being a threat to well-populated areas, allowing them to fall... hezbollah has taken full advantage of that. For people depending on that land for crops, it's devastating.
Israel, on the other hand, continues to target towns and cities, heavily-populated areas, with the reasoning that hezbollah hides amongst civilians. No doubt it does, just as hamas does, though hamas can barely do anything else given the tiny amount of land Palestinians can live on (which has shrunk and shrunk and shrunk). Nevertheless, Israeli bombing of civilian areas is a fact, just as it is a fact the IDF has attacked aid trucks/workers and seem to feel civilian deaths are justified if they can take out a few hamas operatives.


It's unconscionable, to me, that anyone can lay all the blame at the feet of hamas, iran-backed hezbollah and the lack of pressure from outside countries but fail to even consider Israel's own responsibility in all of this.

 

[butters]

and yet another strike on a shelter in Gaza, killing 15

Israel breaks the most basic tenet of warfare, just as Russia does in Ukraine, by just yet another example of bombing places Palestinian civilians are supposed to be safe in. It is not an isolated incidence but an integral part of the IDF's methodology.

 

[deckardB26354]

This conflict will never end until they’re all dead.

It’s a very simple statement that doesn’t point to any one group or government. It’ll be a fact that is proven when it actually happens. We’ll keep supplying Israel arms and give military support. The Russians will assist Iran and Syria with whatever they can scrape up that hasn’t been committed to attacking Ukraine. Those with the most toys wins. Hopefully either side aren’t stupid enough to employ nuclear weapons, but that would certainly fulfill some prophecies that the hard right in the US are jerking to almost daily.

No treaty will change this. No cease fire will happen—at least while Netanyahu has his iron glove around the throat of Israel. It’s been attempted before many times and it will boil down to the basic fact that my god is better than your god. Fuck your stupid fucking made up god and fuck any worshipper of any religion that would use it to justify the death of another human being.

 

[RobDownSouth]

*snort*
https://i.imgur.com/xefDu66.png

 

[Lazaran]

the displacement and murder of civilian populations is unacceptable, no matter which side they occur on. It breeds fear, resentment, and lends itself to radicalisation. Not helpful.

10/7 happened before any of that, so…