closed Thread

[BrightShinyGirl]

1) The U.S. intelligence assessments are independent and separate from the IDF assessments.

2) DEIF (etc), WAS known to be there, but they weren’t sure he had been killed. The IDF got approval for the strike when it was determined that there were no hostages present.

3) Hamas doesn’t differentiate between Hamas casualties and civilian casualties in their reports, so…

4) The sick part is Hamas using hospitals and refugee camps, etc, as bases of operation; full stop.

5) Hamas (with the aid of RUSSIA, Iran, etc) IS RUSSIA in your Russia - Ukraine scenario. I.E. Hamas is the instigating aggressor.

6) I have made a conscious effort to remove emotion from my assessment of the situation. My views / positions are based on definitive facts in evidence.

It should also be pointed that the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) has been co-opted by Hamas. UN staffers took part in the October 7th attack, and have helped hide the hostages. The rot goes deep at the UN and you shouldn’t uncritically accept any claims they make about Israel without independent confirmation.

 

[Lazaran]

It should also be pointed that the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) has been co-opted by Hamas. UN staffers took part in the October 7th attack, and have helped hide the hostages. The rot goes deep at the UN and you shouldn’t uncritically accept any claims they make about Israel without independent confirmation.

I would prefer not to throw the entire UN baby (or UNWRA) out with the bath water, so I will confine my criticism / skepticism to the definitive fact / evidence that SOME members of UNWRA unquestionably DID take part in the 10/7 attack, and that SOME members of the UN unquestionably HAVE been overly accepting of information provided by Hamas and HAVE demonstrated a bias towards the Palestinian side of the narrative.

Your point is well taken, however. If we’re going to be critical / skeptical of the major players involved in the Israel- Gaza conflict, then the UN / UNWRA can’t be excluded.

 

[butters]

out of the thousands of UNWRA workers, it was determined that perhaps as many as 12 were working with, or under the duress, of hamas

 

[silky52]

Hamas brutally murders 6 hostages on film. Reaction from the UK and others, including allies, the western press, and even some Israelis: Blame Israel.

Of course, what did you expect sympathy for Israel does not exist. After all we are the ones committing genocide and we are the ones who rape, murder and cook children in an oven. Of course it's Israel's fault! You want them to blame Hamas, those lovely people who are only too happy to shield themselves from danger with so-called innocent Gazans! I think someone has something around the wrong way here. It's only Israel and the Jews who are to blame!!

 

[butters]

Of course, what did you expect sympathy for Israel does not exist. After all we are the ones committing genocide and we are the ones who rape, murder and cook children in an oven. Of course it's Israel's fault! You want them to blame Hamas, those lovely people who are only too happy to shield themselves from danger with so-called innocent Gazans! I think someone has something around the wrong way here. It's only Israel and the Jews who are to blame!!

you are unhinged

most of us here are entirely anti-hamas, anti-terrorist but also have our damned eyes and ears open enough to see Israel ALSO shares responsibility.... the numbers of dead Palestinians since 10/7 massively outweighs those killed (in an attack most of us here also fully and loudly condemn) that day. Israel shares and even engenders blame. It is NOT blameless in this, no matter how much you try and insist it is and only Israelis are the victims.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

you are unhinged

most of us here are entirely anti-hamas, anti-terrorist but also have our damned eyes and ears open enough to see Israel ALSO shares responsibility.... the numbers of dead Palestinians since 10/7 massively outweighs those killed (in an attack most of us here also fully and loudly condemn) that day. Israel shares and even engenders blame. It is NOT blameless in this, no matter how much you try and insist it is and only Israelis are the victims.

No. Hamas is to blame.

 

[butters]

No. Hamas is to blame.

you, and others, can keep repeating that; it doesn't make it true but i get you believe it.

 

[Lazaran]

you, and others, can keep repeating that; it doesn't make it true but i get you believe it.

BabyBoobs is just trolling you.

Netanyahu and the all-male right wing cabal (that allegedly was the only group that could keep Israel safe) FAILED to stop the 10/7 attack despite warnings from female members of the IDF that Hamas was conducting unusually intense dry runs of a major assault on Israel in the area where the attack ultimately occurred.

That ^ deserves blame.

DonOld assassinating Iran’s national hero, trying to collapse Iran’s economy, moving the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, shutting down the Palestinian consulate in Jerusalem, excluding the Palestinians from the Abraham Accords, etc, etc, contributed to the 10/7 attack.

That ^ deserves blame.

Any Israeli acts that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (with definitive evidence) to have violated international law and are unrelated to any legitimate security concern or war objective is criminal.

That ^ deserves blame IF proven.

Israel IS responsible / accountable for their prosecution of the war in Gaza, etc, which has devastated civilian infrastructure, etc, but that doesn’t equal “blame”, imho.

That ^ is just the price of war for the Palestinians - including the innocents - which Hamas, etc, brought upon everyone with their 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Another day, Another war crime

At least 22 killed in Israeli strike on Gaza school compound​

Most casualties were women and children. Several children survived but required amputations.

Oops.

IDF offered up the usual "Hamas was seen hiding there!" excuses.

Cue the "collateral damage is unavoidable! UNAVOIDABLE" and "Everybody knows Hamas uses human shields! HUMAN SHIELDS!" rationalizations.

 

[ll74]

Hamas should definitely surrender and turn over remaining hostages they didn't murder yet.

 

[deckardB26354]

Hamas should definitely surrender and turn over remaining hostages they didn't murder yet.

So Israel doesn’t kill them by mistake first?

 

[ll74]

So Israel doesn’t kill them by mistake first?

Israel is at war with Hamas.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Israeli forces shove at least four men off West Bank roof​

Warning: Graphic video in link above.
I thought that Palestinians were the ones who were called "barbaric" for throwing folks off of roofs?

 

[deckardB26354]

ll74 said:
Hamas should definitely surrender and turn over remaining hostages they didn't murder yet.

So Israel doesn’t kill the hostages by mistake first?

ll74 said:
Israel is at war with Hamas.


Clarified my post for you.

 

[Rightguide]

Another day, Another war crime

At least 22 killed in Israeli strike on Gaza school compound​

Most casualties were women and children. Several children survived but required amputations.

Oops.

IDF offered up the usual "Hamas was seen hiding there!" excuses.

Cue the "collateral damage is unavoidable! UNAVOIDABLE" and "Everybody knows Hamas uses human shields! HUMAN SHIELDS!" rationalizations.

Is your source still Hamas?

 

[Rightguide]

Israeli forces shove at least four men off West Bank roof​

Warning: Graphic video in link above.
I thought that Palestinians were the ones who were called "barbaric" for throwing folks off of roofs?

"It was not clear if the men were still alive at the time, though their bodies were motionless. At least two were bound, and one was kicked off the roof of the building. The incident came after an Israeli raid targeting militants in the area that included at least one exchange of fire near the building, which sits just behind two school buildings."

 

[RobDownSouth]

"It was not clear if the men were still alive at the time, though their bodies were motionless. At least two were bound, and one was kicked off the roof of the building. The incident came after an Israeli raid targeting militants in the area that included at least one exchange of fire near the building, which sits just behind two school buildings."

Corpse desecration seems to be the "hot" trend in 2024

Given your full-throated defense of convicted felon Donald J Trump's desecration of graves at Arlington National Cemetery for a cheap political stunt, it stands to reason you'd also support the IDF desecrating corpses of their enemies, if in fact the enemy were actually dead.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

So Israel doesn’t kill them by mistake first?

Part of the reason that ceasefire negotiations fell apart last November is that is Hamas offered to return the bodies of hostages that Israel knew were still alive. So claims by Hamas that Israel has killed hostages with air strikes should be viewed with suspicion.

 

[deckardB26354]

Part of the reason that ceasefire negotiations fell apart last November is that is Hamas offered to return the bodies of hostages that Israel knew were still alive. So claims by Hamas that Israel has killed hostages with air strikes should be viewed with suspicion.

Please post a link to that fact because I’d truly like to read it. Honestly.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Please post a link to that fact because I’d truly like to read it. Honestly.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/tv-re...tedly-torpedoing-hostage-deal-with-hamas/amp/

 

[deckardB26354]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/tv-re...tedly-torpedoing-hostage-deal-with-hamas/amp/

Thanks for this. However after reading it—which, honestly wasn’t written very well as it’s all over the place—it looks like there were a lot of fingers pointed at Netanyahu for meddling in the negotiations—even by the families of the hostages.

The Hostages Families Forum denounced Netanyahu, saying in a statement: “The actions to sabotage a deal highlighted in the report leave no room for doubt that Prime Minister Netanyahu is knowingly, deliberately and protractedly abandoning the hostages held by Hamas in Gaza.” It says a state commission of inquiry will have to examine not only the October 7 failures, but also the torpedoing of a deal “that led to the murder or killing of living hostages in captivity and the ongoing abandonment of the 101 hostages still held.”

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Thanks for this. However after reading it—which, honestly wasn’t written very well as it’s all over the place—it looks like there were a lot of fingers pointed at Netanyahu for meddling in the negotiations—even by the families of the hostages.

My point still stands. When you casually repeat the slur that Israel killed some of the hostages, be aware that that accusation serves the propaganda goals of Hamas.

Hamas did execute six living hostages just a few weeks ago when they thought the IDF was close to rescuing them.

 

[deckardB26354]

When you casually repeat the slur that Israel killed some of the hostages, be aware that that accusation serves the propaganda goals of Hamas.

Hamas did execute six living hostages just a few weeks ago when they thought the IDF was close to rescuing them.

First off, I don’t feel that reporting a different view other than the IDF could be—or should be—considered a slur. Just like I can’t fucking stand it when someone has a different view other than “The Chosen People” and they’re labeled anti-Semitic.

When the information coming out of the IDF is allowed to be scrutinized by the international journalistic community and it’s proven to be fact, then I will feel secure enough to believe what they’re saying. Until then, I won’t trust them (or Hamas) any further than I can throw them. Governments lie to push their agendas. The US does it, Russia does it—and Israel and Hamas sure as hell does it.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again—loudly for the cheap seats…I fully support Israel’s right to defend itself and I also support the Palestinian people (not Hamas) and their right to defend themselves to survive.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

First off, I don’t feel that reporting a different view other than the IDF could be—or should be—considered a slur. Just like I can’t fucking stand it when someone has a different view other than “The Chosen People” and they’re labeled anti-Semitic.

When the information coming out of the IDF is allowed to be scrutinized by the international journalistic community and it’s proven to be fact, then I will feel secure enough to believe what they’re saying. Until then, I won’t trust them (or Hamas) any further than I can throw them. Governments lie to push their agendas. The US does it, Russia does it—and Israel and Hamas sure as hell does it.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again—loudly for the cheap seats…I fully support Israel’s right to defend itself and I also support the Palestinian people (not Hamas) and their right to defend themselves to survive.

The term “the chosen people” is often misunderstood by gentiles as a claim that Jews are superior. It is not. It’s a claim that Jews were chosen to have special laws and responsibilities that apply only to us.

 

[deckardB26354]

The term “the chosen people” is often misunderstood by gentiles as a claim that Jews are superior. It is not. It’s a claim that Jews were chosen to have special laws and responsibilities that apply only to us.

I wasn’t claiming that Jews are superior with my statement. I meant that it seems that anything that goes against the established views of the government of Israel on this conflict are labeled as anti-Semitic.