closed Thread

[deckardB26354]

You must have missed the part where I specified that I consider the death and destruction in Gaza a shared atrocity between Israel and Hamas.

I have also made my view / position abundantly clear throughout this thread that sans the Hamas 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, there would be no catastrophe in Gaza right now.

There is zero contradiction in my stance: The Gaza catastrophe is a shared atrocity between Israel and Hamas (and Russia and Iran, etc), but Hamas bears the lion’s share of the blame; full stop.

Also:

I am certainly NOT offering or seriously entertaining any wild conspiracy theories that involve Netanyahu, etc, betraying Israel in such a horrific manner without any damning connecting evidence the way you did: Netanyahu, etc, deserve to be impeached or in prison for other reasons, imho, but conspiracy to genocide on their own people??? Yeah, I’m not there yet…

You’re going to have to explain it to me how, for months now, since Israel went full tilt on Gaza, Hamas “bears the lion’s share of the blame” of…what exactly? Bombing hospitals and schools with the wonderfully lame excuse of, “oh that? That place was chock full of Hamas leaders, so we just had to blow it up.” Please prove to me that the IDF went into those bombed out places and took out ONE Hamas leader. I have yet to find a reputable news source that shows me the Hamas body count during these operations.

Yes, 10/7 is an atrocity and I’m certainly not going to even consider arguing that. But you can’t tell me that blowing up the health infrastructure of Gaza is anything BUT an atrocity. Starving people by delaying food shipments is an atrocity. Maybe that destroying peoples’ homes and businesses and mosques wasn’t enough—you have to tell anyone that’s left to GTFO because they’re coming in with forces to take out “Hamas”—when they wind up using civilians as target practice as they move in.

Also, why not entertain any of the horrible things that are being said about Netanyahu and his minions? Is it so horrible that you can’t even think that Bibi would eeeever do something like that to hurt his own people? It’s not like he planned to overthrow the government and sent his cult members to the US Capitol to overturn his lost election and kill sitting members of that government or anything like that—right?

 

[Lazaran]

You’re going to have to explain it to me how, for months now, since Israel went full tilt on Gaza, Hamas “bears the lion’s share of the blame” of…what exactly? Bombing hospitals and schools with the wonderfully lame excuse of, “oh that? That place was chock full of Hamas leaders, so we just had to blow it up.” Please prove to me that the IDF went into those bombed out places and took out ONE Hamas leader. I have yet to find a reputable news source that shows me the Hamas body count during these operations.

Yes, 10/7 is an atrocity and I’m certainly not going to even consider arguing that. But you can’t tell me that blowing up the health infrastructure of Gaza is anything BUT an atrocity. Starving people by delaying food shipments is an atrocity. Maybe that destroying peoples’ homes and businesses and mosques wasn’t enough—you have to tell anyone that’s left to GTFO because they’re coming in with forces to take out “Hamas”—when they wind up using civilians as target practice as they move in.

Also, why not entertain any of the horrible things that are being said about Netanyahu and his minions? Is it so horrible that you can’t even think that Bibi would eeeever do something like that to hurt his own people? It’s not like he planned to overthrow the government and sent his cult members to the US Capitol to overturn his lost election and kill sitting members of that government or anything like that—right?

I’ve already addressed everything in your comment,

I should probably emphasize that, during Israel’s predictable retribution for 10/7, Hamas WANTED mass casualties to provoke sympathy AND a global Jihad (they have been somewhat successful) - and Hamas UNQUESTIONABLY used Gazan civilians and Israeli, etc, Hostages as human shields inside hospitals, schools, humanitarian aid stations, etc, to advance their goal of provoking sympathy and a global Jihad.

The fact that Hamas set up firing positions and command and control centers in and around civilian infrastructure is a crime against humanity; full stop.

 

[deckardB26354]

The fact that Hamas set up firing positions and command and control centers in and around civilian infrastructure is a crime against humanity; full stop.

I agree with you 1000%. What I’d like to see if actual quantifiable facts that this is what happened.

 

[Lazaran]

I agree with you 1000%. What I’d like to see if actual quantifiable facts that this is what happened.

This:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...ng-al-shifa-hospital-run-military-2023-11-14/



Weird how every time the IDF went to those hospitals, etc, they were met by fierce Hamas resistance and they discovered Hamas weapons stashes, etc.



And this:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/01/middleeast/idf-eliminated-mohammed-deif-intl



Deif and another Hamas commander were killed in a designated humanitarian zone.

How sick is that ^.

They knew the IDF was hunting them and they hid out in a designated humanitarian zone.

 

[deckardB26354]

This:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...ng-al-shifa-hospital-run-military-2023-11-14/

“He said the United States had information that Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad were using some hospitals in the Gaza Strip, including Al Shifa, to conceal or support their military operations and to hold hostages.”

Okay, so what is it? The US get that info from their good buddies at the IDF?

And this:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/01/middleeast/idf-eliminated-mohammed-deif-

“At least 90 Palestinians have been reported killed in an Israeli strike on a displacement camp in southern Gaza which Israel said targeted Hamas’ military chief, who was an alleged mastermind of the October 7 attacks.

Footage from Al-Mawasi, which has been designated as a safe zone for Palestinians fleeing the fighting elsewhere, shows bodies in the street and destroyed tents.

A senior staffer at UNRWA, the UN’s agency for Palestinian refugees, described the Nasser hospital, which took in victims of the strike, as ‘the most horrific scenes I have seen in my nine months in Gaza.’”

Well that sounds like a fair trade—90 innocent people for one bad guy. A raid on a displacement camp. That sounds pretty humane to me.

Deif and another Hamas commander were killed in a designated humanitarian zone.

How sick is that ^.

They knew the IDF was hunting them and they hid out in a designated humanitarian zone.

“Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told a press conference in Tel Aviv Saturday that he was not certain whether Deif and his deputy had been killed, but said he had given his blessing for the head of Shin Bet – Israel’s security agency – to carry out the operation after being assured there were no hostages in the area.

The strike left scenes of devastation, with the Gaza Health Ministry reporting at least 90 people killed and 300 people injured. It said women and children accounted for half of those killed and dozens of those injured. CNN has no way of verifying the casualty numbers reported by the ministry, which does not differentiate between civilians and combatants killed.”

Yeah, how sick IS that? We’re not sure he’s there, but let’s GET SOME!! It’s a good thing that there weren’t any hostages in the area—just 390 people sitting there enjoying the life that they’re forced to live. They were somehow able to verify that there weren’t any hostages there, but couldn’t quite nail down Deif’s location. Whoopsie!

What you don’t seem to want to accept that the IDF doesn’t give a single solitary fuck about any Palestinian. If you’re a Palestinian, you’re obviously Hamas. If you’re Hamas, you’re a Palestinian. So they WILL go and perform airstrikes on humanitarian camps looking for one guy. They WILL gun down innocent “rock throwing” protesters in the street under the guise of being attacked. They WILL support Jewish settlers that commit violence and vandalism against Palestinians living in the West Bank—and they’ll also support the theft of land from them as well.

We can have a discussion about this if you can unemotionally review the facts. Take any two countries and use their names in place of Israel and Palestine/Gaza/West Bank—say Russia and Ukraine for example. If Russia was Israel and Ukraine was Palestine, would you feel the same? Meh, just a thought.

 

[Lazaran]

“He said the United States had information that Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad were using some hospitals in the Gaza Strip, including Al Shifa, to conceal or support their military operations and to hold hostages.”

Okay, so what is it? The US get that info from their good buddies at the IDF?




“At least 90 Palestinians have been reported killed in an Israeli strike on a displacement camp in southern Gaza which Israel said targeted Hamas’ military chief, who was an alleged mastermind of the October 7 attacks.

Footage from Al-Mawasi, which has been designated as a safe zone for Palestinians fleeing the fighting elsewhere, shows bodies in the street and destroyed tents.

A senior staffer at UNRWA, the UN’s agency for Palestinian refugees, described the Nasser hospital, which took in victims of the strike, as ‘the most horrific scenes I have seen in my nine months in Gaza.’”

Well that sounds like a fair trade—90 innocent people for one bad guy. A raid on a displacement camp. That sounds pretty humane to me.



“Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told a press conference in Tel Aviv Saturday that he was not certain whether Deif and his deputy had been killed, but said he had given his blessing for the head of Shin Bet – Israel’s security agency – to carry out the operation after being assured there were no hostages in the area.

The strike left scenes of devastation, with the Gaza Health Ministry reporting at least 90 people killed and 300 people injured. It said women and children accounted for half of those killed and dozens of those injured. CNN has no way of verifying the casualty numbers reported by the ministry, which does not differentiate between civilians and combatants killed.”

Yeah, how sick IS that? We’re not sure he’s there, but let’s GET SOME!! It’s a good thing that there weren’t any hostages in the area—just 390 people sitting there enjoying the life that they’re forced to live. They were somehow able to verify that there weren’t any hostages there, but couldn’t quite nail down Deif’s location. Whoopsie!

What you don’t seem to want to accept that the IDF doesn’t give a single solitary fuck about any Palestinian. If you’re a Palestinian, you’re obviously Hamas. If you’re Hamas, you’re a Palestinian. So they WILL go and perform airstrikes on humanitarian camps looking for one guy. They WILL gun down innocent “rock throwing” protesters in the street under the guise of being attacked. They WILL support Jewish settlers that commit violence and vandalism against Palestinians living in the West Bank—and they’ll also support the theft of land from them as well.

We can have a discussion about this if you can unemotionally review the facts. Take any two countries and use their names in place of Israel and Palestine/Gaza/West Bank—say Russia and Ukraine for example. If Russia was Israel and Ukraine was Palestine, would you feel the same? Meh, just a thought.

1) The U.S. intelligence assessments are independent and separate from the IDF assessments.

2) DEIF (etc), WAS known to be there, but they weren’t sure he had been killed. The IDF got approval for the strike when it was determined that there were no hostages present.

3) Hamas doesn’t differentiate between Hamas casualties and civilian casualties in their reports, so…

4) The sick part is Hamas using hospitals and refugee camps, etc, as bases of operation; full stop.

5) Hamas (with the aid of RUSSIA, Iran, etc) IS RUSSIA in your Russia - Ukraine scenario. I.E. Hamas is the instigating aggressor.

6) I have made a conscious effort to remove emotion from my assessment of the situation. My views / positions are based on definitive facts in evidence.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

1) The U.S. intelligence assessments are independent and separate from the IDF assessments.

2) DEIF (etc), WAS known to be there, but they weren’t sure he had been killed. The IDF got approval for the strike when it was determined that there were no hostages present.

3) Hamas doesn’t differentiate between Hamas casualties and civilian casualties in their reports, so…

4) The sick part is Hamas using hospitals and refugee camps, etc, as bases of operation; full stop.

5) Hamas (with the aid of RUSSIA, Iran, etc) IS RUSSIA in your Russia - Ukraine scenario. I.E. Hamas is the instigating aggressor.

6) I have made a conscious effort to remove emotion from my assessment of the situation. My views / positions are based on definitive facts in evidence.

It should also be pointed that the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) has been co-opted by Hamas. UN staffers took part in the October 7th attack, and have helped hide the hostages. The rot goes deep at the UN and you shouldn’t uncritically accept any claims they make about Israel without independent confirmation.

 

[Lazaran]

It should also be pointed that the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) has been co-opted by Hamas. UN staffers took part in the October 7th attack, and have helped hide the hostages. The rot goes deep at the UN and you shouldn’t uncritically accept any claims they make about Israel without independent confirmation.

I would prefer not to throw the entire UN baby (or UNWRA) out with the bath water, so I will confine my criticism / skepticism to the definitive fact / evidence that SOME members of UNWRA unquestionably DID take part in the 10/7 attack, and that SOME members of the UN unquestionably HAVE been overly accepting of information provided by Hamas and HAVE demonstrated a bias towards the Palestinian side of the narrative.

Your point is well taken, however. If we’re going to be critical / skeptical of the major players involved in the Israel- Gaza conflict, then the UN / UNWRA can’t be excluded.

 

[butters]

out of the thousands of UNWRA workers, it was determined that perhaps as many as 12 were working with, or under the duress, of hamas

 

[silky52]

Hamas brutally murders 6 hostages on film. Reaction from the UK and others, including allies, the western press, and even some Israelis: Blame Israel.

Of course, what did you expect sympathy for Israel does not exist. After all we are the ones committing genocide and we are the ones who rape, murder and cook children in an oven. Of course it's Israel's fault! You want them to blame Hamas, those lovely people who are only too happy to shield themselves from danger with so-called innocent Gazans! I think someone has something around the wrong way here. It's only Israel and the Jews who are to blame!!

 

[butters]

Of course, what did you expect sympathy for Israel does not exist. After all we are the ones committing genocide and we are the ones who rape, murder and cook children in an oven. Of course it's Israel's fault! You want them to blame Hamas, those lovely people who are only too happy to shield themselves from danger with so-called innocent Gazans! I think someone has something around the wrong way here. It's only Israel and the Jews who are to blame!!

you are unhinged

most of us here are entirely anti-hamas, anti-terrorist but also have our damned eyes and ears open enough to see Israel ALSO shares responsibility.... the numbers of dead Palestinians since 10/7 massively outweighs those killed (in an attack most of us here also fully and loudly condemn) that day. Israel shares and even engenders blame. It is NOT blameless in this, no matter how much you try and insist it is and only Israelis are the victims.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

you are unhinged

most of us here are entirely anti-hamas, anti-terrorist but also have our damned eyes and ears open enough to see Israel ALSO shares responsibility.... the numbers of dead Palestinians since 10/7 massively outweighs those killed (in an attack most of us here also fully and loudly condemn) that day. Israel shares and even engenders blame. It is NOT blameless in this, no matter how much you try and insist it is and only Israelis are the victims.

No. Hamas is to blame.

 

[butters]

No. Hamas is to blame.

you, and others, can keep repeating that; it doesn't make it true but i get you believe it.

 

[Lazaran]

you, and others, can keep repeating that; it doesn't make it true but i get you believe it.

BabyBoobs is just trolling you.

Netanyahu and the all-male right wing cabal (that allegedly was the only group that could keep Israel safe) FAILED to stop the 10/7 attack despite warnings from female members of the IDF that Hamas was conducting unusually intense dry runs of a major assault on Israel in the area where the attack ultimately occurred.

That ^ deserves blame.

DonOld assassinating Iran’s national hero, trying to collapse Iran’s economy, moving the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, shutting down the Palestinian consulate in Jerusalem, excluding the Palestinians from the Abraham Accords, etc, etc, contributed to the 10/7 attack.

That ^ deserves blame.

Any Israeli acts that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (with definitive evidence) to have violated international law and are unrelated to any legitimate security concern or war objective is criminal.

That ^ deserves blame IF proven.

Israel IS responsible / accountable for their prosecution of the war in Gaza, etc, which has devastated civilian infrastructure, etc, but that doesn’t equal “blame”, imho.

That ^ is just the price of war for the Palestinians - including the innocents - which Hamas, etc, brought upon everyone with their 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Another day, Another war crime

At least 22 killed in Israeli strike on Gaza school compound​

Most casualties were women and children. Several children survived but required amputations.

Oops.

IDF offered up the usual "Hamas was seen hiding there!" excuses.

Cue the "collateral damage is unavoidable! UNAVOIDABLE" and "Everybody knows Hamas uses human shields! HUMAN SHIELDS!" rationalizations.

 

[ll74]

Hamas should definitely surrender and turn over remaining hostages they didn't murder yet.

 

[deckardB26354]

Hamas should definitely surrender and turn over remaining hostages they didn't murder yet.

So Israel doesn’t kill them by mistake first?

 

[ll74]

So Israel doesn’t kill them by mistake first?

Israel is at war with Hamas.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Israeli forces shove at least four men off West Bank roof​

Warning: Graphic video in link above.
I thought that Palestinians were the ones who were called "barbaric" for throwing folks off of roofs?

 

[deckardB26354]

ll74 said:
Hamas should definitely surrender and turn over remaining hostages they didn't murder yet.

So Israel doesn’t kill the hostages by mistake first?

ll74 said:
Israel is at war with Hamas.


Clarified my post for you.

 

[Rightguide]

Another day, Another war crime

At least 22 killed in Israeli strike on Gaza school compound​

Most casualties were women and children. Several children survived but required amputations.

Oops.

IDF offered up the usual "Hamas was seen hiding there!" excuses.

Cue the "collateral damage is unavoidable! UNAVOIDABLE" and "Everybody knows Hamas uses human shields! HUMAN SHIELDS!" rationalizations.

Is your source still Hamas?

 

[Rightguide]

Israeli forces shove at least four men off West Bank roof​

Warning: Graphic video in link above.
I thought that Palestinians were the ones who were called "barbaric" for throwing folks off of roofs?

"It was not clear if the men were still alive at the time, though their bodies were motionless. At least two were bound, and one was kicked off the roof of the building. The incident came after an Israeli raid targeting militants in the area that included at least one exchange of fire near the building, which sits just behind two school buildings."

 

[RobDownSouth]

"It was not clear if the men were still alive at the time, though their bodies were motionless. At least two were bound, and one was kicked off the roof of the building. The incident came after an Israeli raid targeting militants in the area that included at least one exchange of fire near the building, which sits just behind two school buildings."

Corpse desecration seems to be the "hot" trend in 2024

Given your full-throated defense of convicted felon Donald J Trump's desecration of graves at Arlington National Cemetery for a cheap political stunt, it stands to reason you'd also support the IDF desecrating corpses of their enemies, if in fact the enemy were actually dead.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

So Israel doesn’t kill them by mistake first?

Part of the reason that ceasefire negotiations fell apart last November is that is Hamas offered to return the bodies of hostages that Israel knew were still alive. So claims by Hamas that Israel has killed hostages with air strikes should be viewed with suspicion.

 

[deckardB26354]

Part of the reason that ceasefire negotiations fell apart last November is that is Hamas offered to return the bodies of hostages that Israel knew were still alive. So claims by Hamas that Israel has killed hostages with air strikes should be viewed with suspicion.

Please post a link to that fact because I’d truly like to read it. Honestly.