closed Thread

[icanhelp1]

No need to ___splain it for me, I know the history.

Yes, there is no genocide happening in Gaza. Just like there was no genocide happening in North America. The Trail of Tears, the Sand Creek Massacre, et. al weren’t actual acts of genocide—just a thinning out of the herd. Just like what’s happening in Gaza. They’re not being forced into gas chambers, but in its own sick way that was more “humane” than letting people starve to death, die from lack of medical facilities (because the boogeyman Hamas was hiding there, so BOOM), and using women and children as sniper practice.

Also, you’re telling me that the property lines laid out by treaty haven’t been breached? That Jewish settlers are forcing people out of their homes claiming it’s theirs “just cuz”? Sorry, but I’m not buying your explanation of “Arabs being unwilling to tolerate Jewish self-rule”—whatever the hell that means.

Until the theocracy that exist in Iran is destroyed a two state solution will never materialize. The Iranian people thirst for some kind of democratic system. Freeing the people of Iran will go a long way to settling the Palestinian debacle. Taking down Hezbollah will go a long way to peace in the Mideast. We all forget that Beirut was once the ‘jewel of the Mediterranean’

Taking out Assad and his regime could help.

 

[deckardB26354]

The hostages who were recently executed by Hamas were kept in a dark tunnel where there wasn’t room to stand upright for almost a year. They were starved and denied access to beds and bathroom facilities. Then after being forced to record a final propaganda video, they were shot in the back of the head.

Israel should treat prisoners of war humanely, but it’s wrong to create a false equivalence between them and Hamas.

I have absolutely no facts to back up what I’m about to say, but there have been enough rumors to go around about Netanyahu. Accusations have been raised about the possible ties to his funding of Hamas to keep the hate flowing. He lost his job and as people took to the streets to protest him to keep him out of government—whoops 10/7 happens.

Given the IDF’s vice-like grip on controls of the media’s access to the offensive on Gaza, how are we to know what really happened in that tunnel? The IDF kills volunteers from World Central Kitchen and it magically loses traction in the press. Footage of the IDF using Palestinians as target practice and the media practically ignores it. An American woman, protesting for Palestine, is shot in the head and killed—all the while the IDF kept changing its story, until the media heard keys jingling and moved on. Maybe the IDF stormed that tunnel expecting to find Hamas and blindly opened fire killing a hostage or two—then killed the rest to cover it up. Bibi uses the deaths to stoke more hate.

Like I said it’s all conjecture, but certainly something to think about if you want to keep an open mind.

 

[Lazaran]

I have absolutely no facts to back up what I’m about to say, but there have been enough rumors to go around about Netanyahu. Accusations have been raised about the possible ties to his funding of Hamas to keep the hate flowing. He lost his job and as people took to the streets to protest him to keep him out of government—whoops 10/7 happens.

Given the IDF’s vice-like grip on controls of the media’s access to the offensive on Gaza, how are we to know what really happened in that tunnel? The IDF kills volunteers from World Central Kitchen and it magically loses traction in the press. Footage of the IDF using Palestinians as target practice and the media practically ignores it. An American woman, protesting for Palestine, is shot in the head and killed—all the while the IDF kept changing its story, until the media heard keys jingling and moved on. Maybe the IDF stormed that tunnel expecting to find Hamas and blindly opened fire killing a hostage or two—then killed the rest to cover it up. Bibi uses the deaths to stoke more hate.

Like I said it’s all conjecture, but certainly something to think about if you want to keep an open mind.

So this ^ is where we are as we approach the 10/7 anniversary???



Russia, Iran, and Hamas etc have won.



And people wonder why / how DonOld and the MAGAts are a viable political force…

 

[deckardB26354]

So this ^ is where we are as we approach the 10/7 anniversary???



Russia, Iran, and Hamas etc have won.



And people wonder why / how DonOld and the MAGAts are a viable political force…

So this is what you’ve gathered from my post. Hmm, okay.

 

[Lazaran]

So this is what you’ve gathered from my post. Hmm, okay.

Re-read your own post.

What would anyone not named Laura Loomer gather from that post???

 

[deckardB26354]

Re-read your own post.

What would anyone not named Laura Loomer gather from that post???

That the IDF is the strong arm of Netanyahu. If you can’t see that, you’re hanging on too tight.

 

[Lazaran]

That the IDF is the strong arm of Netanyahu. If you can’t see that, you’re hanging on too tight.

Um, you said a whole lot more than that…

 

[deckardB26354]

Um, you said a whole lot more than that…

Feel free to tell me what I said that I didn’t say.

 

[Lazaran]

I have absolutely no facts to back up what I’m about to say, but there have been enough rumors to go around about Netanyahu. Accusations have been raised about the possible ties to his funding of Hamas to keep the hate flowing. He lost his job and as people took to the streets to protest him to keep him out of government—whoops 10/7 happens.

Given the IDF’s vice-like grip on controls of the media’s access to the offensive on Gaza, how are we to know what really happened in that tunnel? The IDF kills volunteers from World Central Kitchen and it magically loses traction in the press. Footage of the IDF using Palestinians as target practice and the media practically ignores it. An American woman, protesting for Palestine, is shot in the head and killed—all the while the IDF kept changing its story, until the media heard keys jingling and moved on. Maybe the IDF stormed that tunnel expecting to find Hamas and blindly opened fire killing a hostage or two—then killed the rest to cover it up. Bibi uses the deaths to stoke more hate.

Like I said it’s all conjecture, but certainly something to think about if you want to keep an open mind.

This ^.

So this is what you’ve gathered from my post. Hmm, okay.

Then this ^.

That the IDF is the strong arm of Netanyahu. If you can’t see that, you’re hanging on too tight.

Then this ^.

Feel free to tell me what I said that I didn’t say.

Then this ^.

 

[butters]

There is well-documented evidence of the torture and abuse of Palestinian prisoners

Claims of torture, ill-treatment, and sexual violence against detained Palestinians by Israel, have been made before the 7 October attacks and invasion of Gaza, with documentation recorded by the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) and Amnesty International.

Sexual and gender-based violence against Palestinians during the I…​

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_against_Palestinians_…

During the ongoing Israel–Hamas war, Israeli male and female soldiers, guards as well as medical staff have reportedly committed wartime sexual violence against Palestinian children, women and men; including rape, gang-rape, sexualized torture and mutilation.[1][2][3][4][5][6] In February UN experts cited at least two cases of Palestinian women being raped by male Israeli soldiers.[7] Palestinian boys and men have also been raped and subjected to torture, and in some cases the torture has led to the victim's death.[8][9][10][11][12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexua...ians_during_the_Israel–Hamas_war#cite_note-12

In its legally mandated June 2024 investigative report, the UN's Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory (CoI) concluded: "The frequency, prevalence and severity of sexual and gender-based crimes perpetrated against Palestinians since 7 October across the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) indicate that specific forms of Sexual and gender-based violence (SGBV) are part of Israeli Security Forces (ISF) operating procedures."[13]

 

[deckardB26354]

This ^.



Then this ^.



Then this ^.



Then this ^.

Gee, thanks. Unlike the Trumptards here, I can read and I know what I wrote. I thought you might want to give me your take on what I posted because you seem to have a problem with it.

 

[butters]

Israeli protesters keep up pressure for Gaza hostage deal

Protest organisers say crowd sizes have swelled this month after an announcement by Israeli authorities that six hostages whose bodies were recovered by troops had been shot dead by militants in a southern Gaza tunnel.

One of the six was Alexander Lobanov, whose wife Michal on Saturday addressed the crowd in Israel's commercial hub of Tel Aviv, asking why the government did not "do everything" to bring him back alive.

"It was possible to save them, to rescue them through a deal," she said, according to excerpts of her remarks provided by the Hostages and Missing Families Forum campaign group.

"True, it's not as heroic as a military rescue, but it's a different kind of bravery."

Thousands of people joined the rally in Tel Aviv and another in Jerusalem, seat of the Israeli parliament, AFP correspondents said.

 

[butters]

UN official says staff fear they are 'a target' as Israel hits Gaza shelters

 

[Lazaran]

There is well-documented evidence of the torture and abuse of Palestinian prisoners





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_against_Palestinians_during_the_Israel–Hamas_war#cite_note-12

The key words in all of that ^ are “claims” and “reportedly”.



We KNOW what Hamas did on 10/7, etc, because: we have Hamas’ own video of them doing it; we have dead, raped, tortured, burned bodies of innocent Israeli civilians; we have firsthand survivors’ accounts; we have physical and video evidence of the horrible conditions the hostages were held in; we have the videos the hostages were forced to make before the Hamas terrorists shot them in the head, etc.

There really is no equivalence.

 

[Lazaran]

Um, you said a whole lot more than that…

Gee, thanks. Unlike the Trumptards here, I can read and I know what I wrote. I thought you might want to give me your take on what I posted because you seem to have a problem with it.

 

[icanhelp1]

Butters lost me at U.N.

 

[butters]

The key words in all of that ^ are “claims” and “reportedly”.



We KNOW what Hamas did on 10/7, etc, because: we have Hamas’ own video of them doing it

just how are these abused victims supposed to video their abuse?
If their 'claims' are valid enough for Amnesty International and the UN's Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory (CoI), don't you imagine they might have had physical evidence as well as the testimonies of the abused/witnesses of the abusers?

I'm not going to get into an argument here with you, L; however, I do believe you are so invested in promoting awareness of the terrible events of Oct.7th perpetrated by hamas and its associates that you appear blinkered to the realities of the violence being inflicted on Palestinian prisoners. They exist side by side, the difference being that the atrocities committed against Palestinian prisoners existed prior to Oct.7th.

There is no excusing the events, a disgrace against humanity, of that dark day... nor are there any for those that have happened before and after that date. It's all wrong... refusing to even accept it as reality means, to me, you cannot be objective in this discussion. I've seen multiple doctors (of various nationalities) come forward in tv interviews with 'claims' that bolster those of the victims. They cannot be so easily dismissed.

 

[butters]

doctor reported sexual/physical abuse but had no idea it was Israelis that were responsible:

A doctor who worked at the Sde Teiman detention facility said there was no way he could have ignored the signs of serious sexual abuse that he reported seeing on a Palestinian detainee he treated recently at the Israel Defense Forces base in southern Israel.

Speaking to the Kan broadcaster in an interview aired Friday evening, Doctor Yoel Donchin confirmed a report from medical sources that the detainee had presented at the field hospital with broken ribs and signs of physical abuse on multiple bones. He also confirmed that something round had been inserted deep into the detainee’s rectum, causing a tear in the lower bowel and damage to one of the lungs that required emergency surgery.

In the past week, ten IDF reserve soldiers have been detained on suspicion of abusing the Palestinian terror suspect, eight of whom remain in custody.

According to the IDF, the soldiers were suspected of aggravated sodomy (a charge equivalent to rape), causing bodily harm under aggravated circumstances, abuse under aggravated circumstances and conduct unbecoming of a soldier.

The veteran anesthesiologist told Kan that although he felt an obligation as a doctor to report the signs of abuse, it had not crossed his mind that the detainee had been tortured by his Israeli guards.

"Doctor who reported abuse of Palestinian detainee: I blamed fellow prisoners". The Times of Israel. 3 August 2024. Archived from the original on 8 August 2024. Retrieved 9 August 2024.

Peled, Anat; AbdulKarim, Fatima; Abdel-Baqui, Omar (6 August 2024). "Sexual-Abuse Case Rocking Israel's Military Broke After Doctors Sounded Alarm". The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 17 August 2024.

Hearst, Katherine (19 February 2024). "Palestinian women and girls raped and sexually assaulted in Israeli detention, UN experts say". Middle East Eye. Archived from the original on 8 April 2024. Retrieved 22 February 2024.

"Systematic Violation of Human Rights: The Incarceration Conditions of Palestinians in Israel Since October 7". Physicians for Human Rights Israel. 19 February 2024. Retrieved 10 August 2024.

Kingsley, Patrick; Shbair, Bilal. "Inside the Base Where Israel Has Detained Thousands of Gazans". The New York Times. Retrieved 16 June 2024.

al-Hajjar, Mohammed; Durgham, Nader (8 August 2024). "'Raped by female soldiers': Palestinian in leaked Sde Teiman photo speaks out". Middle East Eye. Archived from the original on 8 August 2024. Retrieved 9 August 2024.

Ansari, Milena (26 August 2024). "A Palestinian Paramedic's Ordeal in Israeli Detention". Human Rights Watch. Archived from the original on 26 August 2024. Retrieved 26 August 2024.


so many more links on the wiki page

 

[Lazaran]

Butters lost me at U.N.

butters is a faaaaar better human being that ineedhelp1 will ever be - even when taking into consideration butters’ conflating of: Israel’s inarguably excessively deadly and destructive military operation in Gaza with the Hamas 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping terrorist operation in Israel, and the conflating of the treatment of Hamas and Palestinian civilian prisoners in Israeli custody with the treatment / murder of innocent Israeli and American hostages.

In fact, in most other situations butters’ behavior would be downright noble - but this is Hamas post 10/7 we’re talking about.

 

[Lazaran]

doctor reported sexual/physical abuse but had no idea it was Israelis that were responsible:







"Doctor who reported abuse of Palestinian detainee: I blamed fellow prisoners". The Times of Israel. 3 August 2024. Archived from the original on 8 August 2024. Retrieved 9 August 2024.

Peled, Anat; AbdulKarim, Fatima; Abdel-Baqui, Omar (6 August 2024). "Sexual-Abuse Case Rocking Israel's Military Broke After Doctors Sounded Alarm". The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 17 August 2024.

Hearst, Katherine (19 February 2024). "Palestinian women and girls raped and sexually assaulted in Israeli detention, UN experts say". Middle East Eye. Archived from the original on 8 April 2024. Retrieved 22 February 2024.

"Systematic Violation of Human Rights: The Incarceration Conditions of Palestinians in Israel Since October 7". Physicians for Human Rights Israel. 19 February 2024. Retrieved 10 August 2024.

Kingsley, Patrick; Shbair, Bilal. "Inside the Base Where Israel Has Detained Thousands of Gazans". The New York Times. Retrieved 16 June 2024.

al-Hajjar, Mohammed; Durgham, Nader (8 August 2024). "'Raped by female soldiers': Palestinian in leaked Sde Teiman photo speaks out". Middle East Eye. Archived from the original on 8 August 2024. Retrieved 9 August 2024.

Ansari, Milena (26 August 2024). "A Palestinian Paramedic's Ordeal in Israeli Detention". Human Rights Watch. Archived from the original on 26 August 2024. Retrieved 26 August 2024.


so many more links on the wiki page

butters, I am not saying it didn’t possibly happen: I am saying that we have claims, accusations, and investigations, but no absolute proof like we have for 10/7 - and nothing on the scale of 10/7.

Also:

There is every possibility that a Hamas, etc, prisoner raped / attacked and injured / killed another prisoner and Hamas, etc, is blaming it on the guards - at least as much of a possibility as the guards raping / injuring / killing a prisoner.

Related:

Hamas has been beating and killing their own people in Gaza for even speaking up about their condition that resulted from the 10/7 attack. There have also been reports of the Palestinians torturing and sexually abusing those they suspect of collaborating with the Israelis.

Related:

https://unwatch.org/rights-group-exposes-palestinian-torture-ahead-of-first-un-review/



Now I certainly don’t believe the Israelis are incapable of atrocities, as I see their excessively deadly and destructive prosecution of the war in Gaza as an atrocity shared by Israel and Hamas, but I have yet to be presented with definitive evidence for Palestinian prisoners being abused on par with the definitive evidence associated with the 10/7 attack or the hostage murders.

I’m open to definitive evidence of individual or large scale systematic Israeli abuses of Palestinian prisoners, and I will condemn it without reservation

 

[deckardB26354]

Now I certainly don’t believe the Israelis are incapable of atrocities, as I see their excessively deadly and destructive prosecution of the war in Gaza as an atrocity shared by Israel and Hamas, but I have yet to be presented with definitive evidence for Palestinian prisoners being abused on par with the definitive evidence associated with the 10/7 attack or the hostage murders.

I’m open to definitive evidence of individual or large scale systematic Israeli abuses of Palestinian prisoners, and I will condemn it without reservation

But you’re going to bust MY balls over what I posted about Israeli atrocities? Really?

 

[Lazaran]

But you’re going to bust MY balls over what I posted about Israeli atrocities? Really?

You must have missed the part where I specified that I consider the death and destruction in Gaza a shared atrocity between Israel and Hamas.

I have also made my view / position abundantly clear throughout this thread that sans the Hamas 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, there would be no catastrophe in Gaza right now.

There is zero contradiction in my stance: The Gaza catastrophe is a shared atrocity between Israel and Hamas (and Russia and Iran, etc), but Hamas bears the lion’s share of the blame; full stop.

Also:

I am certainly NOT offering or seriously entertaining any wild conspiracy theories that involve Netanyahu, etc, betraying Israel in such a horrific manner without any damning connecting evidence the way you did: Netanyahu, etc, deserve to be impeached or in prison for other reasons, imho, but conspiracy to genocide on their own people??? Yeah, I’m not there yet…

 

[deckardB26354]

You have to understand that given everything that has come out the the Trump administration, you have to know that I’ll have to take everything that the Israeli government has to say with a massive grain of salt.

 

[butters]

After denials for months, the Israeli military says there is a “high probability” its air strike was responsible for the deaths of three Israeli captives in Gaza in November.

The military on Sunday said it was unaware the captives were present in a tunnel in the Palestinian territory when they launched the attack on November 10, 2023.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=ac6787d5b6a0457ca7bf1cd523b62892&ei=22

The bodies of the three captives – Corporal Nik Beizer, Sergeant Ron Sherman and French-Israeli national Elia Toledano – were recovered on December 14. But the cause of death was not determined.

“The findings of the investigation suggest a high probability that the three were killed as a result of a byproduct of an [Israeli army] air strike, during the elimination of the Hamas Northern Brigade commander, Ahmed Ghandour, on November 10th, 2023,” the military said in a statement.

"killed as a byproduct"... such odd, sanitised language
it can mean anything from 'killed by hamas because we were bombing them' to 'buried and crushed to death by the rubble the strike generated'.

“At the time of the strike, the [army] did not have information about the presence of hostages in the targeted compound,” the military statement said.

given hamas' preponderance for using human shields, it should have been at least a consideration; perhaps it was and the desire to take out ghandour relegated the possibilities to simply 'acceptable risk'... it happens in any war, but this is happening too often for the tens of thousands of marching Israelis to tolerate with comfort.

 

[butters]

Four high-profile journalists have quit the London-based Jewish weekly newspaper The Jewish Chronicle (The JC), following a scandal which saw the publication remove a series of sensational articles relating to the Gaza conflict.

Haaretz Israel News reports that columnists Jonathan Freedland and Hadley Freeman had both resigned, both sharing their decisions on social media early Sunday:

Fellow columnists David Baddiel and David Aaronovitch have also announced their resignations.

Founded in 1841, The JC began publishing several months ago a series of articles described as being by a British-based Israeli journalist, Elon Perry, based on well-placed sources.

Elon Perry claimed the hamas leader could flee Gaza WITH hostages through tunnels. After some investigations, into both this story and his own resume, it was deemed not to be verified and the JC withdrew all articles by this 'Elon' and terminated any work with him.

"The Jewish Chronicle has concluded a thorough investigation into freelance journalist Elon Perry, which commenced after allegations were made about aspects of his record. While we understand he did serve in the Israel Defense Forces, we were not satisfied with some of his claims.

"We have therefore removed his stories from our website and ended any association with Mr Perry.

It goes deeper than that, though, for the journalists leaving: they claim there's a recent lack of transparency, even down to who owns the publication. As such, and given the publications of dubious/inflammatory articles by this person who isn't what they seem, the JC has lost credibility in their eyes and their trust to uphold truthful, genuine reporting.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...&cvid=ac6787d5b6a0457ca7bf1cd523b62892&ei=141