closed Thread

[butters]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1795877968968905209

so start a thread about it and discuss it with those who choose to read and interact with it

@Sean Renaud

I see.... so the attittude to perform a Nazi-style massacre on Jews - HAMAS acted exactly like the Dirlewanger brigade in WW2 - is nothing what disturbs you? Why does that not disturb you?

Because a figure of about 1.500 killed Jews do not bother you?
Because "only" Jews were killed?
Obviously killing Arabs disturbs you, killing Jews not. Are Arabs better humans or what is the reason?

i know this wasn't addressed to me, but this is an open forum for opinions.
the massacre of Oct.7th bothers EVERYONE with a shred of humanity... innocents tortured, killed, maimed, kidnapped, traumatized. No-one can say Israel ought not to have some response to that

but when the numbers of Palestinian civilians reaches beyond the numbers of Oct.7th, especially when it is now in the 30+thousand mark, how can Israelis not be bothered by those figures? in the eyes of at least half of the world, it's literally 'overkill' and unsanctionable

 

[Sean Renaud]

@Sean Renaud

Learn a bit history. Learn about the warfare that Dirlewanger performed. He and his criminals did exactly the same. Burning villages, killing old, young, raping children and women.

Your answer on that is that HAMAS has not the power. What is that for a nonsense? A crime is no crime because the actor is not member of a state or bureaucracy?

Do you want to say that a military weaker party is allowed to rape and kill children? If that is what you want to say then the Nazi were entitled to their crimes as the Axis powers very vastly inferior to the Allies.

Were Dirlwinger with the official government of the country doing the attacks? Cus I already pointed this out. No amount of learning about some specific brigade changes the facts here.

Yes, HAMAS nto having the power is the important detail here. A crime is entirely a matter of opinion for starters but that's not the actual point. When you are dealing with two criminals you go for the person with the more dangerous and greater crime FIRST.

HAMAS isn't even a military power so once again it would help if you were honest. I'm not in the mood to go digging through every bit of WW2 history of what the Nazis may or may not have been doing at any given moment since its really not the same thing at all. What the fuck is wrong with you?

 

[Lazaran]

the massacre of Oct.7th bothers EVERYONE with a shred of humanity...

Unfortunately, that ^ obviously leaves a fuckton of people out…



It isn’t hyperbole to submit that 1-2 BILLION "people" (maybe / probably a fuckton more) didn’t even bat an eye…



And MANY celebrated and held anti-Israel rallies IMMEDIATELY after the 10/7 attack…



That ^ is why I have steeled myself and hardened my heart to the plight of Palestinians, and Muslims in general - and I hate them for making me do that.

 

[KeithD]

It isn’t hyperbole to submit that 1-2 BILLION "people" (maybe / probably a fuckton more) didn’t even bat an eye…

Yes it is. You have no evidence of that.

 

[Lazaran]

Yes it is. You have no evidence of that.

I’m including people that did far worse than not bat an eye…

Like the millions of anti-Semites in America on the right (Jews will not replace us) AND left (Death to Israel).

 

[silky52]

so start a thread about it and discuss it with those who choose to read and interact with it

i know this wasn't addressed to me, but this is an open forum for opinions.
the massacre of Oct.7th bothers EVERYONE with a shred of humanity... innocents tortured, killed, maimed, kidnapped, traumatized. No-one can say Israel ought not to have some response to that

but when the numbers of Palestinian civilians reaches beyond the numbers of Oct.7th, especially when it is now in the 30+thousand mark, how can Israelis not be bothered by those figures? in the eyes of at least half of the world, it's literally 'overkill' and unsanctionable

You don't have to sanction anything. Other countries do what they have to do!!
The numbers that you refer to are numbers brought by the perpetrators! No one knows the exact numbers, and if you look at the videos that are sent out about these so called numbers, you will see that there are children of around 12 and under, fighting together with older Hamas Arabs.

Of course those figures bother people that's what they are meant to do. It's propaganda, which Hamas are very good at. The whole world is in an uproar and anti-semitism has reared it's ugly head from beneath the surface of people's consciousness, which is where it has been these past years. Political correctness does not take Jews into consideration at all, it just wants rid of them!

 

[silky52]

You change my message.

I didi not write that HAMAS wants to kill all Jews. I wrote that they want to kill all Jews in the Near East. And that is stated in their offical documents.

They aren't listening! They simply want to spread their lies!

 

[butters]

You don't have to sanction anything. Other countries do what they have to do!!
The numbers that you refer to are numbers brought by the perpetrators! No one knows the exact numbers, and if you look at the videos that are sent out about these so called numbers, you will see that there are children of around 12 and under, fighting together with older Hamas Arabs.

Of course those figures bother people that's what they are meant to do. It's propaganda, which Hamas are very good at. The whole world is in an uproar and anti-semitism has reared it's ugly head from beneath the surface of people's consciousness, which is where it has been these past years. Political correctness does not take Jews into consideration at all, it just wants rid of them!

what number will satisfy you? the exact same number of innocent Israelis just going about their day on Oct.7th before being massacred and kidnapped?
3 times as many? 10? 20?
when will it ever be enough for you to think 'hey, this might not be right now' or will that only ever happen once hamas is destroyed (something almost everyone here desires to see) and you have the grace to think about it?

 

[Sean Renaud]

You don't have to sanction anything. Other countries do what they have to do!!
The numbers that you refer to are numbers brought by the perpetrators! No one knows the exact numbers, and if you look at the videos that are sent out about these so called numbers, you will see that there are children of around 12 and under, fighting together with older Hamas Arabs.

Of course those figures bother people that's what they are meant to do. It's propaganda, which Hamas are very good at. The whole world is in an uproar and anti-semitism has reared it's ugly head from beneath the surface of people's consciousness, which is where it has been these past years. Political correctness does not take Jews into consideration at all, it just wants rid of them!

The numbers are definitely lowballed though. HAMAS sucks at propaganda especially compared th Israel. Political Correctness doesn't take Jews into consideration?! You are just daft.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Unfortunately, that ^ obviously leaves a fuckton of people out…



It isn’t hyperbole to submit that 1-2 BILLION "people" (maybe / probably a fuckton more) didn’t even bat an eye…



And MANY celebrated and held anti-Israel rallies IMMEDIATELY after the 10/7 attack…



That ^ is why I have steeled myself and hardened my heart to the plight of Palestinians, and Muslims in general - and I hate them for making me do that.

They didn't make you do anything. That is who you are, who you were raised to be and nothing they could ever have done would have changed your opinion. Anti-Israel rallies are common and with good reason but nobody seems to be providing much proof of these celebrations of 10-7. Certainly not in the US where everybody condemned it. As more and more information has come out the more obvious it has become that Israel is flat lying about what they are doing and why.

There is no way of knowing how many people didn't bat an eye about Israel but that's not even a rational metric. China an India combined have just shy of 3 billion people. It would shock me to find out that a majority of their populations, especially in China with what we know they do as far as letting information in or out gave a damn. I don't know how or even if Indian media is censored, then lets factor in all the third world countries that don't even have regular access to the internet.

Try that bullshit on people who can't actually look at numbers and be rational!!!

 

[Lazaran]

They didn't make you do anything. That is who you are, who you were raised to be and nothing they could ever have done would have changed your opinion. Anti-Israel rallies are common and with good reason but nobody seems to be providing much proof of these celebrations of 10-7. Certainly not in the US where everybody condemned it. As more and more information has come out the more obvious it has become that Israel is flat lying about what they are doing and why.

There is no way of knowing how many people didn't bat an eye about Israel but that's not even a rational metric. China an India combined have just shy of 3 billion people. It would shock me to find out that a majority of their populations, especially in China with what we know they do as far as letting information in or out gave a damn. I don't know how or even if Indian media is censored, then lets factor in all the third world countries that don't even have regular access to the internet.

Try that bullshit on people who can't actually look at numbers and be rational!!!

Um, no.

As an American Democrat and atheist ,I was fairly ambivalent about the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation until 10/7.

I opposed the corrupt orange traitor’s Muslim bans, opposed moving the American Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, called for the corrupt Netanyahu and the radical right wing in Israel to be prosecuted / voted out of office. (still do), was hopeful about a two state solution, and didn’t believe Arabs / Muslims IN SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS would celebrate / rally around something like 10/7. (There WERE unsubstantiated rumors of isolated groups of Arabs / Muslims celebrating / rallying around 9/11, but I guess it took a horrific attack on Israel proper and modern media for the true hearts (hate) of the Arab Muslim world to unashamedly reveal itself in all its glory (gory?) to the world.)

I can’t unsee what I saw from SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS of Arabs / Muslims (and their supporters) on 10/7 and in the immediate aftermath. The words and actions of a few can be explained and forgiven, the words and actions of a SIGNIFICANT NUMBER cannot.

The Arab / Muslim "cause" has lost me… forever. (Or until they change on a cellular level).

 

[Sean Renaud]

Nobody is buying that crap. Being an atheist doesn't make you ambigious towards Israel. They are far to major and controversial a player not to have an opinion on. They aren't the fucking Swiss or Ukraine where you could be excused for not giving a fuck. If you buy into either event having enough fanfare to change your mind you either stand for nothing or, more likely you were always that person and now you have an excuse. Because what Israel has done really over the decades forget the last few months is far, far worse than anything that has befallen the ITs not even a contest at this point.

Honestly I'm disgusted that people who aside from the rapes which the more we learn the less likely they seem to have happened in any sort of mass numbers. No amount of rape is "okay" in the same way that no amount of drunk drivers are okay. REal people have to deal with real shit happens. We've seen the videos of what Americans did over the last twenty years. That's if we believe for whatever dumb ass reason that the very, very worst of the US and Israeli military in our conflicts are the things stupid enough to be caught on camera with smiles. . .well yeah.

It would be so much easier to just be honest.

 

[silky52]

The numbers are definitely lowballed though. HAMAS sucks at propaganda especially compared th Israel. Political Correctness doesn't take Jews into consideration?! You are just daft.

You are a hamas supporter or a stupid troll. You have no idea of what's going on!

 

[Sappho_CGN]

@silky52

or both ...

He is a classic leftie living in his fantasy world where the Arabs are valiant revolutionaries fighing for liberation of the working class and against evil imperialism.

In reality no one in the Near East even know how marxism is to spell and all are shouting always "Allah akba" instead of singing the Internationale. It is real satire.

Here in Germany I read an artilcle in the TAZ, a very leftish newspaper, that wearing a scarf is a sign of the liberation and freedom of women. This is no joke. A "leading feminist"- Alice Schwarzer - is called now a rassist as she mentioned that the islam is hardly a source of female equal rights.

The so called intellectuals are a club of self-referring biased idiots not able and especially not willing to see reality.

 

[Lazaran]

Nobody is buying that crap. Being an atheist doesn't make you ambigious towards Israel.

I was ambivalent about the Israeli -Palestinian situation before 10/7, not “ambiguous” about Israel. Israel is the only reliable secular democracy in the region, so, yeah, I’m not ambiguous about Israel.

They are far to major and controversial a player not to have an opinion on.

I gave my opinion on Israel, going so far as to call for Netanyahu and the radical right wing in Israel to be removed from office and prosecuted if warranted.

They aren't the fucking Swiss or Ukraine where you could be excused for not giving a fuck.

I give a fuck or I wouldn’t be having this conversation.

If you buy into either event having enough fanfare to change your mind you either stand for nothing or, more likely you were always that person and now you have an excuse. Because what Israel has done really over the decades forget the last few months is far, far worse than anything that has befallen the ITs not even a contest at this point.
Honestly I'm disgusted that people who aside from the rapes which the more we learn the less likely they seem to have happened in any sort of mass numbers. No amount of rape is "okay" in the same way that no amount of drunk drivers are okay. REal people have to deal with real shit happens. We've seen the videos of what Americans did over the last twenty years. That's if we believe for whatever dumb ass reason that the very, very worst of the US and Israeli military in our conflicts are the things stupid enough to be caught on camera with smiles. . .well yeah.

Putting “Two wrongs don’t make a right” and “bothsidesism” aside, remind me again of the times the U.S. or Israel committed an atrocity like 9/11 or 10/7 and then Americans and Israelis celebrated / held rallies.

It would be so much easier to just be honest.

I’m generally honest to a fault.

 

[LLCox]

Since I couldn't find a Hootie thread... I didn't try real hard.

https://avia-pro.net/blog/amerikans...akovali-avianosec-dwight-eisenhower-v-krasnom

 

[butters]

let's hope the new plan for peace will bear fruit

 

[Sean Renaud]

I was ambivalent about the Israeli -Palestinian situation before 10/7, not “ambiguous” about Israel. Israel is the only reliable secular democracy in the region, so, yeah, I’m not ambiguous about Israel.





I gave my opinion on Israel, going so far as to call for Netanyahu and the radical right wing in Israel to be removed from office and prosecuted if warranted.





I give a fuck or I wouldn’t be having this conversation.





Putting “Two wrongs don’t make a right” and “bothsidesism” aside, remind me again of the times the U.S. or Israel committed an atrocity like 9/11 or 10/7 and then Americans and Israelis celebrated / held rallies.





I’m generally honest to a fault.

Sorry I used the wrong word. Nobody is ambivalent. Israel being the most reliable source of information in the ME is subjective. Regardless that is like walking in on the Legion of Doom and pointing out that Lex Luthor is more reliable than anybody else in the room. There is a reason why Israel isn't allowing journalists into Gaza. Why they have been proven liars multiple times over the last six months.

I don't have video of America following the bombing of Hiroshima but I know they happened and that was infinitely worse than everything the terrorists have done to America and Israel combined all alone. Even if we are just going to talk government against its own people we could talk the civil rights and just the say the last 60 years of US history or the constant settlers in Palestine by Israel in blatant disregard to international law.

Two wrongs quite often do make a right and that is the literal cornerstone of American philosophy. Unless you're a peerson of color in which case take the beating and ask for another is the actual law. Bothsidesism is bullshit but this isn't both sides. Sorry you can tell that lie all day. You'd be better off telling the at least half truth that the majority of Americans KNOW what ISrael is doing is evil but we are so ill educated that we are going to let Trump win so he can kill people properly instead of just not complaining enough like Biden.

 

[Lazaran]

let's hope the new plan for peace will bear fruit

If Israel really has signed off on that incredibly generous offer and Hamas ignores or rejects it, then the hostages are most likely dead, and Hamas is just stalling for time. Let’s hope this deal goes through and LIVE hostages, along with the bodies of the dead, start being reunited with their families.



Side note:

I still can’t see how Hamas can go on being the ruling faction in Gaza, but maybe Israel has a plan for that on “the day after”.



Interesting development at the very least.

 

[censurat]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1796023788552778155

yet another hoax

 

[butters]

If Israel really has signed off on that incredibly generous offer and Hamas ignores or rejects it, then the hostages are most likely dead, and Hamas is just stalling for time. Let’s hope this deal goes through and LIVE hostages, along with the bodies of the dead, start being reunited with their families.



Side note:

I still can’t see how Hamas can go on being the ruling faction in Gaza, but maybe Israel has a plan for that on “the day after”.



Interesting development at the very least.

from President Biden's announcement of Israel's offer, hamas is so decimated it no longer has the power to carry out another such attack as Oct.7th and that hamas would not be in place as the ruling power in Palestine (edit: i may have got that wrong and will change this if i find i am definitely wrong). Palestinians would be self-governing but not under hamas. Aid would flood in immediately on agreement, hostages would be returned and hostages/prisoners in Israel would be given in return. Temporary housing units would be ready to safely house the Palestinians bombed out of their towns as infrastructure is repaired. An absolute cease-fire in place unless hamas breaks that, at which time Israel would resume hostilities against hamas.

a complicated, twothree-part solution, with no doubt many disagreements yet to come either side. i hope it gets the chance to see Palestinians and Israelis move forward to a more sustainable way of living where all civilians can feel safe. President Biden pointed out that the ball is in hamas' court, now, but acknowledged the simple fact that there are hardliners in Israel who are stridently against seeking this way forward to peace, with nothing more on their minds than continued violence to destroy hamas and anyone who happens to be in the way.

as for 'Israel's plan', this one has come about by international pressure and a whole lot of diplomatic work on every side... Israel had to step back from the 'next step' of occupying (effectively taking over) all of Gaza, and there are those (the same ones who want to continue the war) who are still adamant this should happen. The new agreement brought to the table sees a clear separation of Palestinian and Israeli control over the land so, as has been stated, a whole lot could go wrong yet.

edited after Lazaran's input

 

[Lazaran]

from President Biden's announcement of Israel's offer, hamas is so decimated it no longer has the power to carry out another such attack as Oct.7th and that hamas would not be in place as the ruling power in Palestine. Palestinians would be self-governing but not under hamas. Aid would flood in immediately on agreement, hostages would be returned and hostages/prisoners in Israel would be given in return. Temporary housing units would be ready to safely house the Palestinians bombed out of their towns as infrastructure is repaired. An absolute cease-fire in place unless hamas breaks that, at which time Israel would resume hostilities against hamas.

a complicated, two-part solution, with no doubt many disagreements yet to come either side. i hope it gets the chance to see Palestinians and Israelis move forward to a more sustainable way of living where all civilians can feel safe. President Biden pointed out that the ball is in hamas' court, now, but acknowledged the simple fact that there are hardliners in Israel who are stridently against seeking this way forward to peace, with nothing more on their minds than continued violence to destroy hamas and anyone who happens to be in the way.

I did not hear anything about Hamas not remaining in power in President Biden’s speech.

What I heard, was that Israel would continue to negotiate with Hamas, and that there would be three stages of negotiations.

I did hear President Biden make some vague reference to Israel continuing to pursue the members of Hamas who planned and carried out the 10/7 terror attack, but I didn’t get a sense that Hamas as a controlling entity would be defunct.



The statement from Netanyahu was a bit more pointed as to the elimination of Hamas as the a controlling entity in Gaza, but that just leads me to believe that there are some gray areas in the deal, and that Hamas may use Netanyahu’s stance as an excuse to reject the deal.





I would say there is a significantly less than 50/50 chance that Hamas accepts the deal.





Also:

The Hamas strategy of using their own people as human shields to garner public sympathy around the world has been working like a charm, so why would / should they stop the war now???

Also:

With the disruptive division the conflict is sowing in The West, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Russia, China, and Iran, etc, are paying the Hamas leaders to keep the war going.





Hope for the best, I guess…

 

[butters]

been trying to find the full video of his speech today but am coming up empty. I can't believe i was hallucinating about the Gaza under Palestinian control not Israeli part, and perhaps my tired brain today misinterpreted what i did hear.

if i find it, i'll post it.

as of now, it's netanyahu who's rejecting the cessation of violence, announcing his determination to continue the war until Israel's goals are all met.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

been trying to find the full video of his speech today but am coming up empty. I can't believe i was hallucinating about the Gaza under Palestinian control not Israeli part, and perhaps my tired brain today misinterpreted what i did hear.

if i find it, i'll post it.

as of now, it's netanyahu who's rejecting the cessation of violence, announcing his determination to continue the war until Israel's goals are all met.

Hamas is demanding a ceasefire before they will negotiate a ceasefire and the release of the hostages.

 

[butters]

hey, Lazaran, i haven't checked the footage but the quotation from USA Today reads:

The new proposal is "one that brings all the hostages home, ensures Israel's security, creates a better day after in Gaza without Hamas in power, and sets the stage for political settlement that provides a better future for Israelis and Palestinians alike," Biden said.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...easefire-proposal-biden-approval/73921351007/