closed Thread

[butters]

thankyou, L, for your thoughts above; i had this already typed when i spotted your reply but i'll post this anyway since it might draw answers from BSG and others, too.


i know i'm harping on about the maps but it's for a reason:

i won't pretend to understand the full complexities of conflict happening right now; i do understand a whole lot went on before Oct.7th and (from Israel's position of power) the barbaric violence of that day came as a monumental shock to most Israelis. The actions of that day triggered the military response from Israel, justified to the point when it became no-longer justifiable in the eyes of so many. BUT the maps...

some here are calling 'genocide', others saying 'not genocide': what i see, looking at the maps, is that Palestine has been shrunk down to disparate blobs on the map it once almost fully occupied. Those 'blobs' are small, with millions crammed into them. When we see those areas being destroyed virtually completely, as per the American doctor still there, 'eradicated', with the dismantling of everything that supports a society there, and with Israel's determination that Israel should then occupy that land to 'prevent' further activity by terrorists, it's hard not to view the actions as genocidal. Perhaps not even so much the total eradication of a people, but an eradication of Palestine as a country.
Ok, i guess there will be those who say "it's not genocide, as the peaceful Palestinians can live in Israel peacefully"... but why should Palestinians have to accept being 'allowed' to live in Israel when the land was Palestine not so long ago?

 

[ll74]

thankyou, L, for your thoughts above; i had this already typed when i spotted your reply but i'll post this anyway since it might draw answers from BSG and others, too.


i know i'm harping on about the maps but it's for a reason:

i won't pretend to understand the full complexities of conflict happening right now; i do understand a whole lot went on before Oct.7th and (from Israel's position of power) the barbaric violence of that day came as a monumental shock to most Israelis. The actions of that day triggered the military response from Israel, justified to the point when it became no-longer justifiable in the eyes of so many. BUT the maps...

some here are calling 'genocide', others saying 'not genocide': what i see, looking at the maps, is that Palestine has been shrunk down to disparate blobs on the map it once almost fully occupied. Those 'blobs' are small, with millions crammed into them. When we see those areas being destroyed virtually completely, as per the American doctor still there, 'eradicated', with the dismantling of everything that supports a society there, and with Israel's determination that Israel should them occupy that land to 'prevent' further activity by terrorists, it's hard not to view the actions as genocidal. Perhaps not even so much the total eradication of a people, but an eradication of Palestine as a country.
Ok, i guess there will be those who say "it's not genocide, as the peaceful Palestinians can live in Israel peacefully"... but why should Palestinians have to accept being 'allowed' to live in Israel when the land was Palestine not so long ago?

That's part of why I think it's imperative for a two state solution to be made. I don't think it's realistic, at the moment, to congeal the two states together as one. But Palestinians deserve a territory that is recognized internationally, that they have complete sovereignty over with guarantees against Israeli incursion. I return, Israel needs guarantees from Palestinians that they can exist without further bombardment from Hezbollah, Hamas or other aggressive players in the region.

The previous agreements did not have full buy in and support from regional players.... We need everyone on board for peace. (And no, I don't care that some don't believe it's possible)

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

i may not have looked through this thread as closely as i should, but did anyone reply about the change in the maps showing the hugely dramatic differences in what land was labeled Palestine/Israel?

why has this happened? it's great to hear Israel allows Palestinians to live a 'normal' life in Israel, but how was so much of Palestine (almost all of it) relabeled as Israel over the decades? (genuine question)

Israel's Arab neighbors attacked it the moment it came into existence. The Nakba was the "catastrophe" of failing to strangle the infant Jewish state in its crib, but the resulting 1949 borders were stable for almost 20 years.

Most of the territorial expansion came during the Six-Day War in 1967. Israel struck pre-emptively against an Arab alliance arrayed against it. Despite being stronger militarily, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon were all quickly defeated, and Israel seized Gaza, the West Bank, the Sinai Peninsula, and the Golan Heights from her enemies.

The Sinai was returned twelve years later after Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty.

 

[butters]

Israel's Arab neighbors attacked it the moment it came into existence. The Nakba was the "catastrophe" of failing to strangle the infant Jewish state in its crib, but the resulting 1949 borders were stable for almost 20 years.

Most of the territorial expansion came during the Six-Day War in 1967. Israel struck pre-emptively against an Arab alliance arrayed against it. Despite being stronger militarily, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon were all quickly defeated, and Israel seized Gaza, the West Bank, the Sinai Peninsula, and the Golan Heights from her enemies.

The Sinai was returned twelve years later after Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty.

thanks, BSG.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

thankyou, L, for your thoughts above; i had this already typed when i spotted your reply but i'll post this anyway since it might draw answers from BSG and others, too.


i know i'm harping on about the maps but it's for a reason:

i won't pretend to understand the full complexities of conflict happening right now; i do understand a whole lot went on before Oct.7th and (from Israel's position of power) the barbaric violence of that day came as a monumental shock to most Israelis. The actions of that day triggered the military response from Israel, justified to the point when it became no-longer justifiable in the eyes of so many. BUT the maps...

some here are calling 'genocide', others saying 'not genocide': what i see, looking at the maps, is that Palestine has been shrunk down to disparate blobs on the map it once almost fully occupied. Those 'blobs' are small, with millions crammed into them. When we see those areas being destroyed virtually completely, as per the American doctor still there, 'eradicated', with the dismantling of everything that supports a society there, and with Israel's determination that Israel should then occupy that land to 'prevent' further activity by terrorists, it's hard not to view the actions as genocidal. Perhaps not even so much the total eradication of a people, but an eradication of Palestine as a country.
Ok, i guess there will be those who say "it's not genocide, as the peaceful Palestinians can live in Israel peacefully"... but why should Palestinians have to accept being 'allowed' to live in Israel when the land was Palestine not so long ago?

There has never been a Palestinian state. Before the Six-Day War, Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan.

 

[Lazaran]

i may not have looked through this thread as closely as i should, but did anyone reply about the change in the maps showing the hugely dramatic differences in what land was labeled Palestine/Israel?

why has this happened? it's great to hear Israel allows Palestinians to live a 'normal' life in Israel, but how was so much of Palestine (almost all of it) relabeled as Israel over the decades? (genuine question)

On a more positive note:

Israel DID return a fuckton of land they secured in the various wars with their "neighbors" - and Israel also abandoned their settlements in Gaza…

 

[jaF0]

And before the 1950s, there was no Israel at all.

 

[snailspace]

And it may take forceful action by a neutral third party. A type of UN Peacekeeping force to establish a demilitarized zone between the two.

what a dumbass comment

there is a "UN BUFFER ZONE" in Lebanon, how is that working out

 

[snailspace]

the next time some BS artist talks humanitarian crisis

read

https://hotair.com/david-strom/2024...oing-with-aid-we-are-sending-to-gaza-n3788759

BTW, Israel evacuated 1.5 million "people" from Rafah with ZERO issues, the JEW HATERS said it couldnt be done

 

[butters]

There has never been a Palestinian state. Before the Six-Day War, Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan.

so why are the maps labeled the way they are?

https://me-confidential.com/11683-israel-annexes-largest-palestinian-land-since-2014.html

i am not trying to be obtuse, just to understand.
before the U.N partitioning of '47, the majority of the land is labeled 'Palestine'. Even the map showing the partition pan still labels a good-sized chunk of the land as 'Palestine'. Was it a country or not? :uber confused:

the article states that, in 2016:

Israel announced that it is annexing 154hectares of land in the Jordan Valley, northern part of the occupied West Bank, close to Jericho. The move has been condemned by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon.

was this the land returned?

 

[ll74]

the next time some BS artist talks humanitarian crisis

read

https://hotair.com/david-strom/2024...oing-with-aid-we-are-sending-to-gaza-n3788759

BTW, Israel evacuated 1.5 million "people" from Rafah with ZERO issues, the JEW HATERS said it couldnt be done

Where did those numbers come from? How did they identify them as people?

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

And before the 1950s, there was no Israel at all.

The founding of Israel in the 1940's was part of the wave of anticolonialism that swept the British Empire after World War II. There had been Jews in the Levant for thousands of years, surviving as second-class citizens under the yoke of their Arab and Ottoman overlords. When Britain gained control of Mandatory Palestine after WW I, the Zionists who had been working since the 19th Century to create a Jewish state began fighting harder to win their independence.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

so why are the maps labeled the way they are?

https://me-confidential.com/11683-israel-annexes-largest-palestinian-land-since-2014.html

i am not trying to be obtuse, just to understand.
before the U.N partitioning of '47, the majority of the land is labeled 'Palestine'. Even the map showing the partition pan still labels a good-sized chunk of the land as 'Palestine'. Was it a country or not? :uber confused:

the article states that, in 2016:

was this the land returned?

The British name for the territory was "Mandatory Palestine". When the partition was first proposed, the land was divided into an Arab sphere and a Jewish sphere. Much of the Arab sphere became Lebanon and Jordan. The "Palestinian Jews"--as they were called at the time--formed Israel along with other Jews driven out of Arab countries in the middle east and refugees from the Holocaust..

As I mentioned above, Gaza was controlled by Egypt until 1967.

 

[butters]

The British name for the territory was "Mandatory Palestine". When the partition was first proposed, the land was divided into an Arab sphere and a Jewish sphere. Much of the Arab sphere became Lebanon and Jordan. The "Palestinian Jews"--as they were called at the time--formed Israel along with other Jews driven out of Arab countries in the middle east and refugees from the Holocaust..

As I mentioned above, Gaza was controlled by Egypt until 1967.

thanks, again. it led me to this in Wiki.
what a freakin' mess.

do i support a two-state solution? yes. how that can be achieved, though... well, damn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_State_of_Palestine

 

[KeithD]

Do Palestinians want Israel to be eradicated or do they want full autonomy of their own territory? Pick one. Attacking Israel accomplishes neither and instead result in retaliatory actions.

Depends on which Palestinians you ask. There are a hefty number supporting either, although bombing is whittling down the total number. The Palestinians I know, most of whom are Baptists from families that have been Christian back to the time of the conversion by Constantine's mother, just want to go back to the homes and jobs they had before they were forced out. But most of them were met either in Cyprus or the States, so their positions are probably less radical than those now living (or not) in Gaza.

But this is what Israel is facing in its current stance in Gaza and its approach to eradicating Hamas (which certainly would be good to have done--some less civilian-killing way): Say you were a young Palestinian man living in Gaza city with a lucrative rug exporting company. You have a wife and two young children, and your widowed mother lives with you in a comfortable apartment. While you are at work one day and your wife has taken your three-year-old to a nursery school, an Israeli bomb lands on your neighborhood, killing your mother and your four-month-old she was looking after. Your apartment is destroyed. You learn that you're being told by the Hamas-hunting Israelis to leave Gaza City and evacuate to Khan Yunis, 16 miles to the south. By the time you decide you have to and have managed to bury your mother and your baby, while huddling in a shelter, your business and the nursery school have been bombed and the road to Khan Yunis isn't open enough for you to take your car. You make it to Khan Yunis on foot and by the time you are settling in a refugee shelter, still in shock from losing your mother, baby, your apartment, and your business, the Israelis are bombing Khan Yunis to get at Hamas fighters and you're told to evacuate to Rafah 20 miles south on foot. When you get there you find you have to track down an aid truck giving out water and food--and you do find it--but while you do an Israeli bomb kills your wife and your three-year-old.

What are the chances this will radicalize you? Will you sign up with Hamas, even realizing it's only Hamas the Israelis claim they are trying eradicate? And if Hamas is eradicated, will you join up with whatever terrorism/resistance group replaces them? Be honest about what you would do--until it's you who are killed.

 

[ll74]

Depends on which Palestinians you ask.

That's rather broad.

There are a hefty number supporting either, although bombing is whittling down the total number. The Palestinians I know, most of whom are Baptists from families that have been Christian back to the time of the conversion by Constantine's mother, just want to go back to the homes and jobs they had before they were forced out. But most of them were met either in Cyprus or the States, so their positions are probably less radical than those now living (or not) in Gaza.

Most Gazans have never known Israel as home.

But this is what Israel is facing in its current stance in Gaza and its move to eradicate Hamas (which certainly would be good to have done--some less civilian-killing way): Say you were a young Palestinian man living in Gaza city with a lucrative rug exporting company. You have a wife and two young children, and your widowed mother lives with you in a comfortable apartment. While you are at work one day and your wife has taken your three-year-old to a nursery school, an Israeli bomb lands on your neighborhood, killing your mother and your four-month-old she was looking after. Your apartment is destroyed. You learn that you're being told by the Hamas-hunting Israelis to leave Gaza City and evacuate to Khan Yunis, 16 miles to the south. By the time you decide you have to and have managed to bury your mother and your baby, while huddling in a shelter, your business and the nursery school have been bombed and the road to Khan Yunis isn't open enough for you to take your car. You make it to Khan Yunis on foot and by the time you are settling in a refugee shelter, still in shock from losing your mother, baby, your apartment, and your business, the Israelis are bombing Khan Yunis to get at Hamas fighters and you're told to evacuate to Rafah 20 miles south on foot. When you get there you find you have to track down an aid truck giving out water and food--and you do find it--but while you do an Israeli bomb kills your wife and your three-year-old.

What are the chances this will radicalize you? Will you sign up with Hamas, even realizing it's only Hamas the Israelis claim they are trying eradicate? And if Hamas is eradicated, will you join up with whatever terrorism/resistance group replaces them? Be honest about what you would do--until it's you who are killed.

I am not condoning large scale bombing.

As for radicalized Palestinians, if leaders all pushed for peace, and showed them all that peace was possible, they could reverse the political damage the conflict has caused. I think having Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab nations on board would also be beneficial for the region.

 

[Lazaran]

thanks, again. it led me to this in Wiki.
what a freakin' mess.

do i support a two-state solution? yes. how that can be achieved, though... well, damn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_State_of_Palestine

It can’t really be achieved, because, as the Wikipedia page clearly illustrates, the "Palestinians" have zero desire or intention to let the sovereign Jewish majority / controlled sanctuary state of Israel exist.

The key evidence supporting that ^ conclusion from the Wikipedia page:


“In 1947, the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was voted for. The leaders of the Jewish Agency for Palestine accepted parts of the plan, while Arab leaders refused it. This triggered the 1947–1949 Palestine war and led, in 1948, to the establishment of the state of Israel on a part of Mandate Palestine as the Mandate came to an end.”

And:

“Since then there have been proposals to establish a Palestinian state. In 1969, for example, the PLO proposed the establishment of a binational state over THE WHOLE of the former British Mandate territory. This proposal was rejected by Israel, as it would have amounted to the disbanding of the state of Israel. “



Taken together, those two entries pretty much tell the whole story.



Ultimately, the "Palestinians" are attacking Israel on multiple fronts using various tactics:

War, terror, "diplomacy", propaganda, and procreation are all being employed / leveraged to achieve the one true goal of the "Palestinians" and the Arab Muslim cabal: “The end of Israel as a sovereign Jewish majority / controlled sanctuary state.”



The sovereign Jewish majority / controlled sanctuary state of Israel has been facing an existential threat to its existence since its inception, and, much like the Russians are currently trying to wear down western support for Ukraine via economic costs and propaganda, the Arab Muslim cabal is currently trying to wear down western support for Israel via economic costs and propaganda:

Just the latest existential threat to the sovereign Jewish majority / controlled sanctuary state of Israel’s existence.

 

[KeithD]

As for radicalized Palestinians, if leaders all pushed for peace, and showed them all that peace was possible, they could reverse the political damage the conflict has caused. I think having Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab nations on board would also be beneficial for the region.

Palestinians don't have leaders outside of Hamas. which is self-selecting. They haven't had permission to have anything like an election for so long that there is no leadership structure in place above the (bombed) neighborhood level.

That said, a start with the Palestinians would be a recognition of working toward a two-state proposal as some sort of recognition of them at all. And what is the Netanyahu government's stance on that?

 

[ll74]

It can’t really be achieved, because, as the Wikipedia page clearly illustrates, the "Palestinians" have zero desire or intention to let the sovereign Jewish majority / controlled sanctuary state of Israel exist.

The key evidence supporting that ^ conclusion from the Wikipedia page:


“In 1947, the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was voted for. The leaders of the Jewish Agency for Palestine accepted parts of the plan, while Arab leaders refused it. This triggered the 1947–1949 Palestine war and led, in 1948, to the establishment of the state of Israel on a part of Mandate Palestine as the Mandate came to an end.”

And:

“Since then there have been proposals to establish a Palestinian state. In 1969, for example, the PLO proposed the establishment of a binational state over THE WHOLE of the former British Mandate territory. This proposal was rejected by Israel, as it would have amounted to the disbanding of the state of Israel. “



Taken together, those two entries pretty much tell the whole story.



Ultimately, the "Palestinians" are attacking Israel on multiple fronts using various tactics:

War, terror, "diplomacy", propaganda, and procreation are all being employed / leveraged to achieve the one true goal of the "Palestinians" and the Arab Muslim cabal: “The end of Israel as a sovereign Jewish majority / controlled sanctuary state.”



The sovereign Jewish majority / controlled sanctuary state of Israel has been facing an existential threat to its existence since its inception, and, much like the Russians are currently trying to wear down western support for Ukraine via economic costs and propaganda, the Arab Muslim cabal is currently trying to wear down western support for Israel with economic costs and propaganda:

Just the latest existential threat to the sovereign Jewish majority / controlled sanctuary state of Israel’s existence.

I posted a poll multiple times here - prior to October 7, a majority of Palestinians favored both new leadership and a two state solution.

https://thehill.com/regulation/cour...aws-bragg-eyes-a-backup-plan/?nxs-test=mobile

 

[ll74]

Palestinians don't have leaders outside of Hamas. which is self-selecting. They haven't had permission to have anything like an election for so long that there is no leadership structure in place above the (bombed) neighborhood level.

They do have leaders outside of Hamas. They haven't had an opportunity to select new leadership since 2008.

That said, a start with the Palestinians would be a recognition of working toward a two-state proposal as some sort of recognition of them at all. And what is the Netanyahu government's stance on that?

They don't support a two state solution, which is why they should also be replaced.

 

[KeithD]

That's rather broad.


Most Gazans have never known Israel as home.

Israel, as "home" was plopped down on top of existing Palestinian homes--mostly by force. The current Israel didn't exist before 1948. There were periods of Jewish settlement before that, certainly, but what do you think I was establishing with the Joshua fit the battle of Jericho story? This started with a band of Hebrews invading people who already were there.

 

[KeithD]

They do have leaders outside of Hamas.

Oh really? Who?

 

[ll74]

Oh really? Who?

Palestinians have leaders all over the place. They may not have political clout that gives them prominence, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Leaders start locally and gain steam with the right messaging.... I have no doubt that there are Palestinians who want a different path..... That poll I posted shows that people want that..... All it takes is for someone to step up.

 

[ll74]

Israel, as "home" was plopped down on top of existing Palestinian homes--mostly by force. The current Israel didn't exist before 1948. There were periods of Jewish settlement before that, certainly, but what do you think I was establishing with the Joshua fit the battle of Jericho story? This started with a band of Hebrews invading people who already were there.

Oversimplified. Does everyone have a right to return to where their ancestors originated from? Do we just ignore what has happened since?

 

[KeithD]

Palestinians have leaders all over the place. They may not have political clout that gives them prominence, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Leaders start locally and gain steam with the right messaging.... I have no doubt that there are Palestinians who want a different path..... That poll I posted shows that people want that..... All it takes is for someone to step up.

No, a political leadership structure for anything identifiable as Palestine does not exist. "Who" means actual people. I challenged you to name the "who." Unless you can name anyone more than Hamas that can claim backing as a leader of the Palestinians and who can speak/negotiate/decide for them, you can't claim leaders exist.