closed Thread

[ll74]

No, a political leadership structure for anything identifiable as Palestine does not exist.

Not yet.

"Who" means actual people. I challenged you to name the "who." Unless you can name anyone more than Hamas that can claim backing as a leader of the Palestinians and who can speak/negotiate/decide for them, you can't claim leaders exist.

I can claim leaders exist. Whether they have power or support is another matter....there are supporters of new leadership and a two state solution. Give them a chance to have a voice and leaders will emerge.

 

[KeithD]

Oversimplified. Does everyone have a right to return to where their ancestors originated from? Do we just ignore what has happened since?

Well, yes, that's a convenient question that applies to Isrealis as much as to anyone else who has ancestors who have lived in the region.

 

[KeithD]

Not yet.


I can claim leaders exist. Whether they have power or support is another matter....there are supporters of new leadership and a two state solution. Give them a chance to have a voice and leaders will emerge.

Name them. You can't have functional leaders in the abstract. Give two names of leaders who are accepted to speak for the Palestinians. Names.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Apology accepted.



Also:

Pointing out certain poster’s lack of objective balance in the assignment of blame for the current situation in Gaza has NOTHING to do with pushing a false narrative.

It is what it is.

I absolutely admit my "assignment of blame" is entirely subjective.
We've moved past "fair and balanced" attempts at objectivity months ago.

 

[ll74]

Well, yes, that's a convenient question that applies to Isrealis as much as to anyone else who has ancestors who have lived in the region.

I'd say the possibility that Israel will leave and let Palestinians return in their place is remote.

 

[KeithD]

I'd say the possibility that Israel will leave and let Palestinians return in their place is remote.

Me too, having lived and worked in the region. Doesn't mean I don't see both perspectives--or that I don't shade toward the Palestinians, especially with how most have skewed toward the Israeli perspective for eighty years.

 

[ll74]

Name them. You can't have functional leaders in the abstract. Give two names of leaders who are accepted to speak for the Palestinians. Names.

Asked and answered. If it isn't enough for you, so be it.

Leadership and political pressure guide people to do amazing things and I believe global leadership should work towards a lasting solution.

 

[JohnEngelman]

That was then this is now. Biden's numbers on everything are down.

That might be true, but an assertion like that needs to be documented. I could not find recent data on the matter. If you have some, please post it.

 

[KeithD]

Asked and answered. If it isn't enough for you, so be it.

Leadership and political pressure guide people to do amazing things and I believe global leadership should work towards a lasting solution.

Oh, really? You identified actual Palestinian leaders accepted to speak for them--other than Hamas? That's what I asked you. You say you've answered. The names, please. The names of real people in these roles.

 

[ll74]

Oh, really? You identified actual Palestinian leaders accepted to speak for them--other than Hamas? That's what I asked you. You say you've answered. The names, please. The names of real people in these roles.

I answered the questions and then you wanted a more specific answer to try and delegitimize my position. More power to ya.

I'm not interested in digging in the weeds. Better leadership will lead to peace. The people have shown in the past that they want it. International leaders should look to find ways to promote that and push for it.

 

[KeithD]

No, you haven't answered my questions. You stated that the Palestinians had leaders. If they do, they have names. They walk and talk. They are real people. They demonstrate that they represent the Palestinians in Gaza. You haven't answered my question until/unless you name them and they can be verified as able to speak/negotiate for the Palestinian people--at least the ones in Gaza. This is one of the ways Israel shares guilt (bigly) for the current situation in Gaza. Israel has purposely prevented leadership to form in Gaza other than the Hamas. There hasn't been an option for leadership for the Palestinians in Gaza other than Hamas for nearly two decades.

 

[jaF0]

This is how Dictatorships work:

Israel's block of AP transmission shows how ambiguity in law could restrict war coverage​

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/ip3/abcnews.go.com.icoABC|1 hour ago
The shutdown and seizure by Israel of an Associated Press video camera that provided a live glimpse into Gaza raised concerns about how a new media law could be used to restrict war coverage ...

 

[GhostFence2024]

This isn't a fucking war, it's a massacre of innocent civilians by Israel.

 

[Lazaran]

This isn't a fucking war, it's a massacre of innocent civilians by Israel.

With Gaza’s population of 2.3 MILLION, if Israel, with all the weapons at its disposal, was engaged in "a massacre of innocent civilians", there would be a fuckton more than 35,000 dead "innocent" Gazans after 7+ months of "genocide".

And even that ^ 35,000 number assumes that the numbers of the "innocent civilians” allegedly killed by Israel being reported by "The HAMAS ministry of health" can be believed. (The numbers can’t be believed.)



Side note:

The only confirmed massacre of innocent civilians in the Israel - Gaza conflict occurred on 10/7, and it was perpetrated by HAMAS.

Hope that ^ helps.

 

[GhostFence2024]

This is how Dictatorships work:

Israel's block of AP transmission shows how ambiguity in law could restrict war coverage​

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/ip3/abcnews.go.com.icoABC|1 hour ago
The shutdown and seizure by Israel of an Associated Press video camera that provided a live glimpse into Gaza raised concerns about how a new media law could be used to restrict war coverage ...

How to say Israel is engaging in an illegal massacre of civilians without coming out and saying they're engaging in an illegal massacre of civilians.

 

[Rightguide]

No, but a large part of the 10/7 Outdoor Concentration Camp uprising is a result of Israeli actions.

Israel made a calculated political gambit that backfired spectacularly on them.
Israel essentially forgot the cardinal rule of concentration camps: If you're going to build a prison, you had better staff it.

• Israel's nationalist Likkud party created and funded Hamas as an alternative to the Palestine Liberation Army back in 1999.
• World pressure on Israel forced them to allow Gazan elections in 2005. Gaza voted for then-Israeli-approved Hamas.
• Hamas was not much better than PLA. Israel instituted a blockade (Naval and land) around 2007. Food, Medicine, building supplies were strictly rationed. The world (and many Israelis) recognized Gaza for what it was: the world's largest open air prison
• Two thirds of Gazans have spent their entire lives growing up in this prison, never knowing anything other than Israeli oppression.
• Donald Trump is elected in 2016, and things go from bad to worse.
  • The entire world was united in criticizing Israel's blatant and illegal land grab in the West Bank.
  • But wahoooo, Trump announced that the United States would basically turn a blind eye on new Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
  • Israel recognized a limited time opportunity to build more settlements and seize more land due to Trump's turning his back on decades of carefully balanced Middle East policy.
  • Israeli West Bank settlers are opportunistic thieves, the worst of the worst that Israel has to offer.
  • These settlers are, sadly, an important voting bloc within Israel.
• Netanyahu politicked hard for Trump's re-election, inserting his country into the political affairs of the USA
• When Trump lost, the unpopular Netanyahu was dumped from office.
• Because Netanyahu, like Trump, considers "winning" to be the only thing that matters, he was forced to make a "deal with the devil": He told the West Bank voting bloc that he'd put Israeli troops on West Bank soil to back up their murder/rape/theft/land grab. The West Bank voting block, which is something like 10-15% of the Israeli populace, sided with Netanyahu and made the difference in Netanyahu's next election.
• Netanyahu needed to keep his political promise to the West Bank settlers, but had a problem: There weren't enough troops to staff the World's Largest Outdoor Prison AND to go adventuring in the West Bank
• Netanyahu tried to increase the size of the Israeli army, but was defeated because Israel refused to spend money to increase the military, expanding the draft was politically unpopular, and removing the law that gave any Orthodox Jew an automatic exemption from military service.
• His hands were tied. Netanyahu looked at Gaza, which had been comparatively "peaceful" compared to the destruction in the West Bank at the time, and made the worst decision of his life: He removed the vast majority of Israeli "boots on the ground" at the Israeli-Gaza border and shipped all but a skeleton force of his troops to the West Bank.
• Netanyahu may have been suckered into believing Israel's own self-defense propaganda
  • The "Iron Dome" appeared to be adequately working against missile attacks on Israel.
  • A network of shiny new crewless automated machine gun towers were put in place at the Gazan=Israeli border and the skeleton Israeli force controlled them remotely from 30 miles away.
• Israel and Netanyahu were banking on nobody noticing the significant change in policing Israel's wester border.
• Gaza noticed.
• Hamas began training their limited armed forces to breach Israel's meager defenses and inflict some payback on their Israeli jailers.
• 10/7 arrived, and Israel reaped the consequences of what they had sown way back 15 years ago.
• Twelve of thirteen automated machine gun towers were disabled (the 13th one, the only surviving one, cut down a large swath of Hamas invaders, but is never mentioned because it draws attention to the failure of the other 12...and also detracts from the "1160 casualties!!" talking point.
• The result was Israel got their ass kicked, the mighty Israel war machine was bested by a bunch of "subhumans" with small arms.
• Netanyahu's hand was forced. He reflexively ordered an immediate invasion of Gaza, with no clear plan of attack other than "erry male under 40 is to be considered Hamas and killed" which is Trumpian seat-of-the-pants non-planning.
• The result is the genocide we see Israel inflicting upon Gaza today.

The bottom line? Gaza is Israel's "Vietnam Moment". They're winning all their battles, but their losing the war.
The Israel propaganda machine has worked tirelessly to spin this debacle as a "win" for Israel, but all but the most ardent Israeli supporters recognize they've lost the war of public opinion, and worse, lost the unconditional backing of it's major patron, the United States.

Hard times ahead for Israel, due to actions of their own doing.

I don't think the demise of Israel is conclusive just yet.

 

[Rightguide]

I absolutely admit my "assignment of blame" is entirely subjective.
We've moved past "fair and balanced" attempts at objectivity months ago.

Years ago if we're talking about your media.

 

[butters]

The White House responded to Ireland, Norway and Spain recognizing Palestine, saying President Joe Biden supports a two-state solution, but said he thinks a Palestinian state should be realized after negotiations and "not through unilateral recognition."

With the additions of Ireland, Norway and Spain, some 143 countries now recognize the state of Palestine, according to the U.N.

Israel responded to the 3 new countries now recognising the state of Palestine by cutting funding to the Palestinian Authority.

Israel's also given the green light to settlers to move into the once-prohibited region of the West Bank

Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant has authorized settlers to enter parts of the northern West Bank that they had previously been barred.

The Israelis previously had settlements in this area that were evacuated and then demolished in 2005. Settlements in the area will still need government approval, but this authorization will make it easier for settlers to establish outposts.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=89d36418990e4c3ed7acd1c47e861b35&ei=10

In an attempt to solve the decades-long Israeli–Palestinian conflict, the Oslo Accords were signed between Israel and the PLO in 1993 and 1995, creating the Palestinian Authority (PA) as a self-governing interim administration in the Gaza Strip and around 40% of the West Bank.[5] After the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and Benjamin Netanyahu's ascension to power, negotiations between Israel and the PA stalled, which led the Palestinians to pursue international recognition of the State of Palestine without Israeli acquiescence.

In 2011, the State of Palestine was admitted into UNESCO; in 2012, after it was accepted as an observer state of the United Nations General Assembly with the votes of 138 member states of the United Nations, the PA began to officially use the name "State of Palestine" for all purposes.

Among the G20, ten countries (Argentina, Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, Mexico, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, and Turkey) have recognized Palestine as a state,[note 1] while nine countries (Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, the United Kingdom, and the United States) have not.[note 2] Although these countries generally support some form of a two-state solution to the conflict, they take the position that their recognition of a Palestinian state is conditioned to direct negotiations between Israel and the PA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

 

[Lazaran]

Israel responded to the 3 new countries now recognising the state of Palestine by cutting funding to the Palestinian Authority.

Israel's also given the green light to settlers to move into the once-prohibited region of the West Bank

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=89d36418990e4c3ed7acd1c47e861b35&ei=10






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

Yeah, I don’t think Israel is going to bend to international pressure or be swayed by diplomacy.



In their own (better) way, imho, Israel is becoming a bit more like North Korea: Isolationist for its survival.

Also:

Much like North Korea has aligned itself with a "benefactor" big brother in China, but also has an uneasy alliance with China, Israel has aligned itself with the U.S., but also has an uneasy alliance with the U.S.

Ironically, it’s western (U.S.) capitalism, the rise of Islam, Chinese expansion, and the global refugee problem (caused by climate change from industrialized countries, war, overpopulation, etc) that has led to MANY countries being more isolationist to protect their sovereignty and their "culture".

It isn’t surprising that countries will give a big “fuck you” to the world and become more isolationist when they feel an existential threat to their existence is confronting them.

The U.S. OBVIOUSLY isn’t immune to the lure of isolationism (which would be a big mistake imho), and the results of this next election (if the corrupt orange traitor wins) could send the U.S. down a very dark path of EXTREME isolationism, even though the country really isn’t facing an existential crisis at the moment.



JFC

SAD!!!

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

What a difference two weeks makes. Israel has evacuated 950,000 from Rafah and already discovered 50 tunnels crossing from Rafah into Egypt. The White House has erased its red line and a senior official now says the operation might create “opportunities for getting the hostage deal back on track.”

 

[snailspace]

Of course

 

[snailspace]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1793621754138743247

 

[Chobham]

What a difference two weeks makes. Israel has evacuated 950,000 from Rafah and already discovered 50 tunnels crossing from Rafah into Egypt. The White House has erased its red line and a senior official now says the operation might create “opportunities for getting the hostage deal back on track.”

Is Biden still working his "two state" deal, Minnesota and Michigan?

 

[snailspace]

THE ENEMY WITHIN: Hamas thanks student protesters, dubs them part of the Oct. 7 ‘flood’ to annihilate Jews.

 

[Rightguide]

Much of US Aid Meant for Gaza Being Stolen - Is Anyone Really Shocked?​

By Becky Noble | 3:45 PM on May 22, 2024

If there is one fact that constantly escapes Democrats and the left, it is that people in other countries, from different cultures, don't think the same twisted way they do. For Democrats, it is all kittens and sunshine, Kumbaya, and can't we all just get along? You might think that the horrors of the Israel-Hamas war would burst that bubble, but it seems that has not happened. When Joe Biden has not been busy throwing Israel under the bus, he has ordered millions of American taxpayer dollars in aid to Gaza. But are women and children in Gaza seeing any of that aid? If you guessed no, you would be right.

On Tuesday, Pentagon spokesperson Maj. Gen. Pat Ryder stated that none of the 569 tons sent in just the last week for Palestinians in Gaza has actually reached them; it has all been stolen. Ryder explained that the way the aid distribution is set up is that the U.S. military delivers it via the floating pier that was built by the military. From there, non-US contractors transport it to an assembly area where various NGOs take it for distribution. Well, what looks good on paper doesn't always happen, especially in the Middle East. Aid is also being transported to distribution warehouses around Gaza.

Recently, of 16 trucks bringing food and medicine en route to one of the warehouses in Gaza, only five made it to the warehouse intact; supplies from the other 11 were stolen as the trucks traveled through an area that has not seen much aid. One U.N. official said, "They've not seen trucks for a while. They just basically mounted on the trucks and helped themselves to some of the food parcels."

But in typical fashion, if the world can find something to blame Israel for, they will do it. The U.N. World Food Program stated that Joe Biden's $320 million Pier designed for humanitarian aid to Gaza is in jeopardy if Israel does not ensure the safety of trucks transporting the aid. But what the U.N. or anyone else is not talking about is the fact that it is more than likely Hamas terrorists are stealing the aid and have been doing it for quite a while. There have even been reports that U.N. employees steal it and resell it.

More enlightenment for the left here: https://redstate.com/beckynoble/202...eing-stolen-is-anyone-really-shocked-n2174514

Another Biden foreign policy boondoggle.