closed Thread

[ll74]

I think JaF0's point is clear and valid.

I asked if the attack is valid. The answer sidestepped a direct answer.

Prolonged subjugation will lead to ever-more-violent responses. You know, like the American, French, and Russian revolutions, with the suppression of the Palestinians in Israel having been more stringent that those other results of prolonged subjugation.

So the attack on October 7th was valid?

No, the resulting violence/atrocities often go beyond the acceptable/supportable, as they did in this case on 7 October, but the prolonged suppression makes them explainable, and the overkill response highlights why 7 October happened.

So the attack was valid, but the type of attack was not?

That Hamas exists has more to do with what Israel has been doing for the last 80 years than it does with anything the civilian Palestinian population has done.

Do Palestinians want Israel to be eradicated or do they want full autonomy of their own territory? Pick one. Attacking Israel accomplishes neither and instead result in retaliatory actions.

What leadership wants peace and autonomy rather than violence and endless war? (I say that in relation to both parties, not just Palestinians)

 

[Lazaran]

No, everything isn't on the Israelis. But you and others won't accept that no one has posted that it is.

When it comes to solutions to ending the WAR??? On who needs to do what???



You could have fooled me…

And your supposition that Hamas is going to give up unconditionally and release the hostages is utterly ridiculous. Stop sitting on that as well and, if you post, do so on some sort of reality.

Is my suggestion more or less realistic than expecting Israel to cease its operations and leave Hamas intact in Gaza after 10/7???



I’m going with “more”.

 

[KeithD]

So, you're just going to go on misrepresenting what others have posted to justify your unrealistic/unattainable positions?

Hamas is not going to surrender unconditionally, and it is not going to give up its remaining hostages from 7 October without getting something satisfactory in return, which obviously will include the survival of Hamas. Stop smoking that weed. And the Netanyahu government has shown it has given up on the safe return of hostages as not possible given its goals. (It doesn't even have a working means for hostages to give themselves up if they manage to escape--they shoot them).

The Netanyahu government is banking on wiping Hamas out whatever the costs--obviously not valuing the loss of civilian Palestinians as much of a cost and not giving two figs what its allies and the rest of the world think--and, who knows, they may be proved right and that the world eventually will shrug its shoulders at Israel having shown how much of the death and destruction it bears a full measure of responsibility for as long as Hamas is gone--which will lead to the next Hamas, because the Israeli policies of subjugation of the Palestinians hasn't gone away and, surprise surprise, has led to the rise of the next Hamas.

 

[Lazaran]

That Hamas exists has more to do with what Israel has been doing for the last 80 years than it does with anything the civilian Palestinian population has done

Yeah, “no one is saying EVERYTHING is Israel’s fault”…

Riiiiiight…

 

[RobDownSouth]

Or is EVERYTHING on the Israelis???

No, but a large part of the 10/7 Outdoor Concentration Camp uprising is a result of Israeli actions.

Israel made a calculated political gambit that backfired spectacularly on them.
Israel essentially forgot the cardinal rule of concentration camps: If you're going to build a prison, you had better staff it.

• Israel's nationalist Likkud party created and funded Hamas as an alternative to the Palestine Liberation Army back in 1999.
• World pressure on Israel forced them to allow Gazan elections in 2005. Gaza voted for then-Israeli-approved Hamas.
• Hamas was not much better than PLA. Israel instituted a blockade (Naval and land) around 2007. Food, Medicine, building supplies were strictly rationed. The world (and many Israelis) recognized Gaza for what it was: the world's largest open air prison
• Two thirds of Gazans have spent their entire lives growing up in this prison, never knowing anything other than Israeli oppression.
• Donald Trump is elected in 2016, and things go from bad to worse.
  • The entire world was united in criticizing Israel's blatant and illegal land grab in the West Bank.
  • But wahoooo, Trump announced that the United States would basically turn a blind eye on new Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
  • Israel recognized a limited time opportunity to build more settlements and seize more land due to Trump's turning his back on decades of carefully balanced Middle East policy.
  • Israeli West Bank settlers are opportunistic thieves, the worst of the worst that Israel has to offer.
  • These settlers are, sadly, an important voting bloc within Israel.
• Netanyahu politicked hard for Trump's re-election, inserting his country into the political affairs of the USA
• When Trump lost, the unpopular Netanyahu was dumped from office.
• Because Netanyahu, like Trump, considers "winning" to be the only thing that matters, he was forced to make a "deal with the devil": He told the West Bank voting bloc that he'd put Israeli troops on West Bank soil to back up their murder/rape/theft/land grab. The West Bank voting block, which is something like 10-15% of the Israeli populace, sided with Netanyahu and made the difference in Netanyahu's next election.
• Netanyahu needed to keep his political promise to the West Bank settlers, but had a problem: There weren't enough troops to staff the World's Largest Outdoor Prison AND to go adventuring in the West Bank
• Netanyahu tried to increase the size of the Israeli army, but was defeated because Israel refused to spend money to increase the military, expanding the draft was politically unpopular, and removing the law that gave any Orthodox Jew an automatic exemption from military service.
• His hands were tied. Netanyahu looked at Gaza, which had been comparatively "peaceful" compared to the destruction in the West Bank at the time, and made the worst decision of his life: He removed the vast majority of Israeli "boots on the ground" at the Israeli-Gaza border and shipped all but a skeleton force of his troops to the West Bank.
• Netanyahu may have been suckered into believing Israel's own self-defense propaganda
  • The "Iron Dome" appeared to be adequately working against missile attacks on Israel.
  • A network of shiny new crewless automated machine gun towers were put in place at the Gazan=Israeli border and the skeleton Israeli force controlled them remotely from 30 miles away.
• Israel and Netanyahu were banking on nobody noticing the significant change in policing Israel's wester border.
• Gaza noticed.
• Hamas began training their limited armed forces to breach Israel's meager defenses and inflict some payback on their Israeli jailers.
• 10/7 arrived, and Israel reaped the consequences of what they had sown way back 15 years ago.
• Twelve of thirteen automated machine gun towers were disabled (the 13th one, the only surviving one, cut down a large swath of Hamas invaders, but is never mentioned because it draws attention to the failure of the other 12...and also detracts from the "1160 casualties!!" talking point.
• The result was Israel got their ass kicked, the mighty Israel war machine was bested by a bunch of "subhumans" with small arms.
• Netanyahu's hand was forced. He reflexively ordered an immediate invasion of Gaza, with no clear plan of attack other than "erry male under 40 is to be considered Hamas and killed" which is Trumpian seat-of-the-pants non-planning.
• The result is the genocide we see Israel inflicting upon Gaza today.

The bottom line? Gaza is Israel's "Vietnam Moment". They're winning all their battles, but their losing the war.
The Israel propaganda machine has worked tirelessly to spin this debacle as a "win" for Israel, but all but the most ardent Israeli supporters recognize they've lost the war of public opinion, and worse, lost the unconditional backing of it's major patron, the United States.

Hard times ahead for Israel, due to actions of their own doing.

 

[Lazaran]

So, you're just going to go on misrepresenting what others have posted to justify your unrealistic/unattainable positions?

I’m going to continue to call bullshit on bullshit narratives.

Yes.

 

[KeithD]

When it comes to solutions to ending the WAR??? On who needs to do what???



You could have fooled me…





Is my suggestion more or less realistic than expecting Israel to cease its operations and leave Hamas intact in Gaza after 10/7???



I’m going with “more”.

Yes. Because even if Israel kills an organization called Hamas, it will have guaranteed the rise of the next Hamas and because pressure on Israel by those who have been instrumental in helping it survive very likely will force the ouster of Netanyahu and rise of an Israel government that will back off meeting Netanyahu's total goals.

There's no total win achievable for anyone in this.

 

[KeithD]

I’m going to continue to call bullshit on bullshit narratives.

Yes.

So, you're going to continue to bullshit. What part of you are misrepresenting any claim of support for Hamas having been posted by anyone to this board are you going to continue to ignore/pretend you didn't hear? You aren't going to be believable here until you stop lying about that.

 

[ll74]

So, you're just going to go on misrepresenting what others have posted to justify your unrealistic/unattainable positions?

Assuming you're talking to me?

What is unreasonable or unrealistic and why?

The answer is leadership. Leaders that want peace will fight and seek peace.
Those who don't and like to blame others will not.

Hamas is not going to surrender unconditionally, and it is not going to give up its remaining hostages from 7 October without getting something satisfactory in return, which obviously will include the survival of Hamas.

If arab countries pressured them, they'd do more.

Stop smoking that weed. And the Netanyahu government has shown it has given up on the safe return of hostages as not possible given its goals. (It doesn't even have a working means for hostages to give themselves up if they manage to escape--they shoot them).

I have called on Israelis to elect new leadership as well.

The Netanyahu government is banking on wiping Hamas out whatever the costs--obviously not valuing the loss of civilian Palestinians as much of a cost and not giving two figs what its allies and the rest of the world think--and, who knows, they may be proved right and that the world eventually will shrug its shoulders at Israel having shown how much of the death and destruction it bears a full measure of responsibility for as long as Hamas is gone--which will lead to the next Hamas, because the Israeli policies of subjugation of the Palestinians hasn't gone away and, surprise surprise, has led to the rise of the next Hamas.

I'm not picking sides here. Leadership of both parties need to commit to peace. All countries need to pressure them both to do so. Pressuring only one side to stop their shit just results in defiance.

 

[KeithD]

Assuming you're talking to me?

What is unreasonable or unrealistic and why?

The answer is leadership. Leaders that want peace will fight and seek peace.
Those who don't and like to blame others will not.


If arab countries pressured them, they'd do more.



I have called on Israelis to elect new leadership as well.



I'm not picking sides here. Leadership of both parties need to commit to peace. All countries need to pressure them both to do so. Pressuring only one side to stop their shit just results in defiance.

No, I haven't addressed anything to you, so I'm not aware of a disagreement to discuss.

 

[Lazaran]

So, you're going to continue to bullshit. What part of you are misrepresenting any claim of support for Hamas having been posted by anyone to this board are you going to continue to ignore/pretend you didn't hear? You aren't going to be believable here until you stop lying about that.

Please direct my attention to a SINGLE post where I labeled ANYONE here as “supporting” Hamas.



Have I called out the Pro-"Palestine" crowd for putting EVERYTHING on Israel???



Sure.

(See also: Post #5,436)

 

[ll74]

No, I haven't addressed anything to you, so I'm not aware of a disagreement to discuss.

You didn't quote anyone, yet were clearly addressing someone. I guess maybe AJ

 

[KeithD]

Please direct my attention to a SINGLE post where I labeled ANYONE here as “supporting” Hamas.



Have I called out the Pro-"Palestine" crowd for putting EVERYTHING on Israel???



Sure.

(See also: Post #5,436)

Don't be disingenuous. All of your posts give a false narrative on blame. Most recently and directly #5,419 and #5,485. You raise an "all blame" narrative that fingers nonexistent posting here.

You've made it obvious you can't be an objective or fair discussant on this, so I'll stop trying.

 

[KeithD]

You didn't quote anyone, yet were clearly addressing someone. I guess maybe AJ

Would have to have been Lazaran, because that's the only false narrative posting I've been going after today. I probably thought I was directly responding to a Lazaran post immediately above mine and someone got in a post between them. I'm not the only one who's tried to tell Lazaran today that he's posting a false "all blame" narrative here.

 

[butters]

i may not have looked through this thread as closely as i should, but did anyone reply about the change in the maps showing the hugely dramatic differences in what land was labeled Palestine/Israel?

why has this happened? it's great to hear Israel allows Palestinians to live a 'normal' life in Israel, but how was so much of Palestine (almost all of it) relabeled as Israel over the decades? (genuine question)

 

[ll74]

Would have to have been Lazaran, because that's the only false narrative posting I've been going after today. I probably thought I was directly responding to a Lazaran post immediately above mine and someone got in a post between them. I'm not the only one who's tried to tell Lazaran today that he's posting a false "all blame" narrative here.

Yah, that reply button is tough. I get it.

 

[Lazaran]

No, but a large part of the 10/7 Outdoor Concentration Camp uprising is a result of Israeli actions.

Israel made a calculated political gambit that backfired spectacularly on them.
Israel essentially forgot the cardinal rule of concentration camps: If you're going to build a prison, you had better staff it.

• Israel's nationalist Likkud party created and funded Hamas as an alternative to the Palestine Liberation Army back in 1999.
• World pressure on Israel forced them to allow Gazan elections in 2005. Gaza voted for then-Israeli-approved Hamas.
• Hamas was not much better than PLA. Israel instituted a blockade (Naval and land) around 2007. Food, Medicine, building supplies were strictly rationed. The world (and many Israelis) recognized Gaza for what it was: the world's largest open air prison
• Two thirds of Gazans have spent their entire lives growing up in this prison, never knowing anything other than Israeli oppression.
• Donald Trump is elected in 2016, and things go from bad to worse.
  • The entire world was united in criticizing Israel's blatant and illegal land grab in the West Bank.
  • But wahoooo, Trump announced that the United States would basically turn a blind eye on new Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
  • Israel recognized a limited time opportunity to build more settlements and seize more land due to Trump's turning his back on decades of carefully balanced Middle East policy.
  • Israeli West Bank settlers are opportunistic thieves, the worst of the worst that Israel has to offer.
  • These settlers are, sadly, an important voting bloc within Israel.
• Netanyahu politicked hard for Trump's re-election, inserting his country into the political affairs of the USA
• When Trump lost, the unpopular Netanyahu was dumped from office.
• Because Netanyahu, like Trump, considers "winning" to be the only thing that matters, he was forced to make a "deal with the devil": He told the West Bank voting bloc that he'd put Israeli troops on West Bank soil to back up their murder/rape/theft/land grab. The West Bank voting block, which is something like 10-15% of the Israeli populace, sided with Netanyahu and made the difference in Netanyahu's next election.
• Netanyahu needed to keep his political promise to the West Bank settlers, but had a problem: There weren't enough troops to staff the World's Largest Outdoor Prison AND to go adventuring in the West Bank
• Netanyahu tried to increase the size of the Israeli army, but was defeated because Israel refused to spend money to increase the military, expanding the draft was politically unpopular, and removing the law that gave any Orthodox Jew an automatic exemption from military service.
• His hands were tied. Netanyahu looked at Gaza, which had been comparatively "peaceful" compared to the destruction in the West Bank at the time, and made the worst decision of his life: He removed the vast majority of Israeli "boots on the ground" at the Israeli-Gaza border and shipped all but a skeleton force of his troops to the West Bank.
• Netanyahu may have been suckered into believing Israel's own self-defense propaganda
  • The "Iron Dome" appeared to be adequately working against missile attacks on Israel.
  • A network of shiny new crewless automated machine gun towers were put in place at the Gazan=Israeli border and the skeleton Israeli force controlled them remotely from 30 miles away.
• Israel and Netanyahu were banking on nobody noticing the significant change in policing Israel's wester border.
• Gaza noticed.
• Hamas began training their limited armed forces to breach Israel's meager defenses and inflict some payback on their Israeli jailers.
• 10/7 arrived, and Israel reaped the consequences of what they had sown way back 15 years ago.
• Twelve of thirteen automated machine gun towers were disabled (the 13th one, the only surviving one, cut down a large swath of Hamas invaders, but is never mentioned because it draws attention to the failure of the other 12...and also detracts from the "1160 casualties!!" talking point.
• The result was Israel got their ass kicked, the mighty Israel war machine was bested by a bunch of "subhumans" with small arms.
• Netanyahu's hand was forced. He reflexively ordered an immediate invasion of Gaza, with no clear plan of attack other than "erry male under 40 is to be considered Hamas and killed" which is Trumpian seat-of-the-pants non-planning.
• The result is the genocide we see Israel inflicting upon Gaza today.

The bottom line? Gaza is Israel's "Vietnam Moment". They're winning all their battles, but their losing the war.
The Israel propaganda machine has worked tirelessly to spin this debacle as a "win" for Israel, but all but the most ardent Israeli supporters recognize they've lost the war of public opinion, and worse, lost the unconditional backing of it's major patron, the United States.

Hard times ahead for Israel, due to actions of their own doing.

Now. Do. The. Other. Side.



I find this similar to the Russia - Ukraine thread, where "Becky" presents the narrative that EVERYTHING is the fault of "The West" (The U.S.), and completely fails to FULLY acknowledge Russia’s culpability for ANYTHING.



Now I’m not saying you’re as extreme as "Becky", but I do detect an absence of objective balance in the assignment of "blame" for the current situation in Gaza in many of your posts.

Just sayin’…

 

[jaF0]

Yeah, “no one is saying EVERYTHING is Israel’s fault”…

I'm saying the government of Israel has been abusing their neighbors for many decades. They have made no effort at all not to. Is that their fault? Or the fault of their neighbors?

i may not have looked through this thread as closely as i should, but did anyone reply about the change in the maps showing the hugely dramatic differences in what land was labeled Palestine/Israel?

why has this happened? it's great to hear Israel allows Palestinians to live a 'normal' life in Israel, but how was so much of Palestine (almost all of it) relabeled as Israel over the decades? (genuine question)

I addressed that above ... I think. Since the 60s, Israel has been slowing and forcefully chipping away, taking more and more land, bit by bit, war by war. The UN has admonished them several times, but no one has stood up to them and forced them to give back the land they've taken.


Israel needs to be made to go back to their original UN designated borders. By force if necessary.

 

[Lazaran]

Don't be disingenuous. All of your posts give a false narrative on blame. Most recently and directly #5,419 and #5,485. You raise an "all blame" narrative that fingers nonexistent posting here.

You've made it obvious you can't be an objective or fair discussant on this, so I'll stop trying.

Apology accepted.



Also:

Pointing out certain poster’s lack of objective balance in the assignment of blame for the current situation in Gaza has NOTHING to do with pushing a false narrative.

It is what it is.

 

[Lazaran]

m saying the government of Israel has been abusing their neighbors for many decades. They have made no effort at all not to. Is that their fault? Or the fault of their neighbors?

No effort at all???



And “their neighbors” have been doing what for the past 75+ years???



Thought so…

 

[ll74]

Now. Do. The. Other. Side.



I find this similar to the Russia - Ukraine thread, where "Becky" presents the narrative that EVERYTHING is the fault of "The West" (The U.S.), and completely fails to FULLY acknowledge Russia’s culpability for ANYTHING.



Now I’m not saying you’re as extreme as "Becky", but I do detect an absence of objective balance in the assignment of "blame" for the current situation in Gaza in many of your posts.

Just sayin’…

I don't agree with every one of your positions on this discussion, though definitely align with the majority. I'd say probably the parts I disagree with are the disparaging and dehumanizing parts.....and to be honest, most of that is more reactionary because of the conflation that occurs on both tribes of discussion.

What bothers me is that people seem to apply pressure or criticize one party rather than understand that it will take changes to both to achieve positive results.

 

[Lazaran]

i may not have looked through this thread as closely as i should, but did anyone reply about the change in the maps showing the hugely dramatic differences in what land was labeled Palestine/Israel?

why has this happened? it's great to hear Israel allows Palestinians to live a 'normal' life in Israel, but how was so much of Palestine (almost all of it) relabeled as Israel over the decades? (genuine question)

One explanation, is that Israel was attacked from those formerly "Palestinian" territories during various wars of aggression, and, subsequent to Israel winning those wars, Israel occupied some of the territory for security reasons - which then naturally morphed into settlement expansion.

Was there some opportunism involved???



There’s always opportunism where humans are involved.

 

[snailspace]

I'm saying the government of Israel has been abusing their neighbors for many decades. They have made no effort at all not to. Is that their fault? Or the fault of their neighbors?

I addressed that above ... I think. Since the 60s, Israel has been slowing and forcefully chipping away, taking more and more land, bit by bit, war by war. The UN has admonished them several times, but no one has stood up to them and forced them to give back the land they've taken.


Israel needs to be made to go back to their original UN designated borders. By force if necessary.

they DONT take land, they are attacked and CAPTURE land.

who are they abusing and how?

 

[jaF0]

I don't agree with every one of your positions on this discussion, though definitely align with the majority. I'd say probably the parts I disagree with are the disparaging and dehumanizing parts.....and to be honest, most of that is more reactionary because of the conflation that occurs on both tribes of discussion.

What bothers me is that people seem to apply pressure or criticize one party rather than understand that it will take changes to both to achieve positive results.

And it may take forceful action by a neutral third party. A type of UN Peacekeeping force to establish a demilitarized zone between the two.

 

[ll74]

And it may take forceful action by a neutral third party. A type of UN Peacekeeping force to establish a demilitarized zone between the two.

I think you're correct. And I think Arab nations should be the ones to lead it.