closed Thread

[RobDownSouth]

Elon's GROK AI completely fabricates story of Iranian Missile Attack on Tel Aviv and promotes it to Front Page News this morning.

Israel needs to stop half-assing these "poor poor pitiful us" stories.

 

[KeithD]

The comment you're quoting here is my response to Keith.

Which showed you (doggedly) haven't been following the news.

The "official" Israeli report on what happened is already out. It came out yesterday morning. The report was covered in detail today on two media sources I watch, CNN and MSNBC. No one, to my knowledge, is accusing these outlets of false reporting of this.

The Israelis do, in fact, admit in that report that the Central Kitchen convoy was specifically targeted. The precision bombing nature of it makes obvious that "somebody" specifically targeted what was there on the ground. As I told you already, since you haven't bothered to keep up with the news, the report acknowledges the convey was targeted and the three vehicles that were separated from each other by a kilometer each as coordinated with the IDF were precision blasted by Israeli missiles and wiped out. It's hard for you to claim they didn't target the convoy when their official report admits they did and that it's self-evident that they did. What they hedged on was whether armed figures accompanied the convoy. Even if they thought they did, protocol (the report admits) was to check "what to do" up the line. Those doing the striking didn't do that.

They also didn't claim in the report that Israel didn't know it was an aid convoy. It was and it had been cleared to do what it was doing, where it was doing it, and how it was doing it with the appropriate IDF authorities. Not only has Israel already released its official report, but it's also already relieved two IDF officials of their duties and reprimanded the overall chief of the IDF action in Gaza. As far as Israel is concerned, investigation complete, guilt admitted, punishment inflicted.

You can wait for a week if you like for more information, but the official IDF report is out and it admits it should have known it was an aid convoy and that it, not anyone else, took out the convoy that required three separate precision strikes to do. Not hardly an accident. At best a sloppy cockup highlighting the level of Israeli regard for life in Gaza. They are among the very best at such operations in the world. They've had six months in Gaza to get the science of it down. They haven't bothered to. They've been doing a whole hell of a lot of it though, with high on-the-ground casualties.

 

[SmokingFap]

Posted without comment.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

I never said they did and I know they don’t!

I happen to know that military errors happen. They just do! No matter how well trained your troops are!

I feel bad for the poor souls who were there to feed people just as bad as the doctors in Afghanistans. The US never planned to target a hospital.

In plain terms, Shit Happens!

I am NOT Blaming Israel or the US.

War is hell, that’s why it needs to be avoided.

On this and many occasions like it against UNWRA workers, it’s obviously pre-meditated, and it is obviously murder.

We’re all getting fed up of Israel’s lies and excuses.

They have been obviously building conditions to displace and starve the people of Gaza for some time. Terrorising the aid groups into no longer functioning in Gaza is part of that.

Australia today has appointed their own investigator as they’re rightly calling out Israel’s ludicrous “independent” investigation.

The USA and UK are complicit in this genocide.

I personally will not forgive my government for their part in this disgusting new accelerated phase of Zionist genocidal destruction.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

Posted without comment.

Yeah John Kirby is the biggest apologist for the genocide. I hope one day he will brought to account. Shameful.

 

[SmokingFap]

Yeah John Kirby is the biggest apologist for the genocide. I hope one day he will brought to account. Shameful.

I support Biden on virtually every matter and will gladly vote for him again in November. But I'm absolutely appalled and sickened at our response and continued support of this ongoing massacre.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Yeah John Kirby is the biggest apologist for the genocide. I hope one day he will brought to account. Shameful.

Respectfully disagree. Loose cannon billionaire Bill Ackman actively seeks out errybody in the USA who does not support Israeli genocide and attempts to have them fired from their employment for their heresy.

He's also funding the ultra-right fringe party in Israel attempting to dismantle the Israeli Supreme Court, in essence making the Israeli Prime Minister an unchecked dictator.

He focuses his hatred on Academics and Journalists, using advanced AI to scour everything they've ever written, looking for improperly sourced claims and filing plagiarism complaints with news bureaus and universities. He's gotten almost two dozen sacked or had tenure revoked for cause.

Ironically, his trophy wife is a college professor and was caught in the plagiarism dragnet too.

Oh, and he's also targeting "influencer" accounts on Twitter, mass reporting those tweeting unfavorable coverage of the Israeli genocide. About two months ago, several 100K influencer accounts were suddenly suspended. People thought it was due to criticism of Elon Musk and blamed Musk. No, Musk's folks gave Ackman summary authority to pull the trigger. That was revoked when Twitter ended up with egg on their faces.

 

[butters]

Which showed you (doggedly) haven't been following the news.

The "official" Israeli report on what happened is already out. It came out yesterday morning. The report was covered in detail today on two media sources I watch, CNN and MSNBC. No one, to my knowledge, is accusing these outlets of false reporting of this.

The Israelis do, in fact, admit in that report that the Central Kitchen convoy was specifically targeted. The precision bombing nature of it makes obvious that "somebody" specifically targeted what was there on the ground. As I told you already, since you haven't bothered to keep up with the news, the report acknowledges the convey was targeted and the three vehicles that were separated from each other by a kilometer each as coordinated with the IDF were precision blasted by Israeli missiles and wiped out. It's hard for you to claim they didn't target the convoy when their official report admits they did and that it's self-evident that they did. What they hedged on was whether armed figures accompanied the convoy. Even if they thought they did, protocol (the report admits) was to check "what to do" up the line. Those doing the striking didn't do that.

They also didn't claim in the report that Israel didn't know it was an aid convoy. It was and it had been cleared to do what it was doing, where it was doing it, and how it was doing it with the appropriate IDF authorities. Not only has Israel already released its official report, but it's also already relieved two IDF officials of their duties and reprimanded the overall chief of the IDF action in Gaza. As far as Israel is concerned, investigation complete, guilt admitted, punishment inflicted.

You can wait for a week if you like for more information, but the official IDF report is out and it admits it should have known it was an aid convoy and that it, not anyone else, took out the convoy that required three separate precision strikes to do. Not hardly an accident. At best a sloppy cockup highlighting the level of Israeli regard for life in Gaza. They are among the very best at such operations in the world. They've had six months in Gaza to get the science of it down. They haven't bothered to. They've been doing a whole hell of a lot of it though, with high on-the-ground casualties.

the reporting i listened to last night suggested that whilst the food aid vehicles were complying and acting in accordance with the IDF, this information was not passed downline to the people who believed they identified a terrorist (still don't know how true or false that specific claim is) in one of the vehicles which they then targeted. These vehicles were all easily identifiable by logos on their roofs and sides. When they saw a survivor from the first vehicle be picked up by the second, they then targeted that one, and when two survivors of that attack were picked up by the third vehicle IT was targeted with a loss of all on board.

is it conceivable as a story? perhaps, but to knowingly and willingly destroy all the aid workers plus prevent another attempt at getting help to starving Gazans, it is absolutely unacceptable. do i, personally believe it was all a confusion? no, not really, but that's neither here nor there since we'll likely never have it confirmed publicly anyway.

Israel has begun (it says) opening more routes for aid into Gaza after a heated phone call with President Biden where matters of slow walking Israeli funding/arms and the implementation of sanctions were presented to netanyahu.

 

[KeithD]

Yeah John Kirby is the biggest apologist for the genocide. I hope one day he will brought to account. Shameful.

That's his job. He's not a policymaker. He's a spokesperson for the administration. He could, of course, resign if he couldn't speak for the administration's policy, but I don't think he's setting/influencing policy enough for this condemnation.

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...zas-maghazi-residents-find-families-in-pieces

 

[KeithD]

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...zas-maghazi-residents-find-families-in-pieces

Well, yes, an air strike will do that to a body. We're six months into this. This is hardly news.

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

We're six months into this. This is hardly news.

?

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

https://www.ticketmaster.com/

 

[icanhelp1]

Absolutely.... And what I meant was..... You can't make conclusions based on limited information. The relevant information at the time was only a few days' worth.

The comment you're quoting here is my response to Keith.

I appreciate the information sources you provided.

I’ve read and viewed, I believe, every article and video available. The fact that the attack happened is unmistakable. Did innocent people die, yes!

The IDF INVESTIGATION board admitted that the 3 vehicles were targeted. Of course they were deliberately targeted, they were perceived to be HAMAS operatives and a threat.

The problem lies in the collection of actionable intelligence. Somehow ISR data was compromised and decisions to strike was based on incomplete and compromised data. The US protocol is if the target is out of visual surveillance for basically one second the shot is called off and a new order is initiated starting all target acquisition surveillance from scratch. A missile strike is different from doorkicking. A missile strike requires 100% positive ID. Someone took a gamble, too aggressive and turned the targets hot. They could have considered the target an imminent threat, I don’t think anyone in the media can report otherwise. I believe they want to come clean without jeopardizing sources and methods and compromising troops on the ground.

What is happening now is conspiracy theorists are trying to mold a tragic event into deliberate murder without evidence of intent to murder. Sad. The IDF fired two officers and suspended all ISR strikes till the correct data collection protocol from the start of tracking to the actual strike itself and everything in between is modified. IMHO

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

A missile strike requires positive ID.

FTFY

 

[RandyRebecca]

That's his job. He's not a policymaker. He's a spokesperson for the administration. He could, of course, resign if he couldn't speak for the administration's policy, but I don't think he's setting/influencing policy enough for this condemnation.

Nazi defendants said that at the Nuremberg Trials of 1945-46. "I was just doing my job, just doing what the Führer ordered". If Kirby disagrees with the Biden administration's policies strongly enough, then he has a duty to resign from his post, or else he is complicit to some extent.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

I’ve read and viewed, I believe, every article and video available. The fact that the attack happened is unmistakable. Did innocent people die, yes!

The IDF INVESTIGATION board admitted that the 3 vehicles were targeted. Of course they were deliberately targeted, they were perceived to be HAMAS operatives and a threat.

The problem lies in the collection of actionable intelligence. Somehow ISR data was compromised and decisions to strike was based on incomplete and compromised data. The US protocol is if the target is out of visual surveillance for basically one second the shot is called off and a new order is initiated starting all target acquisition surveillance from scratch. A missile strike is different from doorkicking. A missile strike requires 100% positive ID. Someone took a gamble, too aggressive and turned the targets hot. They could have considered the target an imminent threat, I don’t think anyone in the media can report otherwise. I believe they want to come clean without jeopardizing sources and methods and compromising troops on the ground.

What is happening now is conspiracy theorists are trying to mold a tragic event into deliberate murder without evidence of intent to murder. Sad. The IDF fired two officers and suspended all ISR strikes till the correct data collection protocol from the start of tracking to the actual strike itself and everything in between is modified. IMHO

Bullshit of the highest order.

The IDF knew the coordinates and the vehicles were there.

There was no confirmation that there was a gunman.

Even if one man was a Hamas operative, how does that justify blowing up all three cars?

It has become too normalised to treat civilians and aid workers as collateral damage in a war that has gone beyond all reasonable force.

Also - “conspiracy theorists” - mate, the Australian, Polish and British governments have literally pointed out how fucking nuts it is over the last day and a half.

The IDF are constantly caught lying, obfuscating and more.

This isn’t a conspiracy theory, it’s actually happening in real time.

The fact you’re too pig headed to see the wood for the trees is not my problem.

I look forward to all of the governments pressing the IDF and Israel for criminal charges, including that of premeditated murder, which this is the latest in a long line of murders of aid workers.

 

[Chobham]

Biden and his handlers are floundering.......again. They are mixing domestic politics with foreign policy and that is a toxic brew. With regards to Hamas they are trying to play both ends against the middle. Trying to satisfy the parties Jewish constituents and the Muslim constituents simultaneously and that can't be done. There are two states in which the Muslim voters can swing the vote, Minnesota and Michigan. Minnesota is safely blue, Michigan is a swing state. Their vacillating policy re. Israel is basically dragging out the conflict which only results in more opportunities for mistakes and casualties. He/they should have stood solidly behind Israel and then go to the Muslim voters and make their case as to why. Muslims are not monolithic and for the most part are reasonable individuals.

In a semi-related, and equally stupid, maneuver Blinken has flatly stated that Ukraine will join NATO. If it is your intention to move the Russian hand closer to the nuclear trigger, that's how you go about it. In this case it appears that they see this as a jab against the Republican congress and hence Trump and the block on the vote for military aid to Ukraine. The block on that vote has virtually nothing to do with Ukraine and everything to do with border policy. This is a weak, and dangerous, card poorly played.

Some points;

The legislation proposed by the democrats merely enshrined in law what current policy is, it was NOT a solution.

The longer the border remains out of control the less concerned the US public will be over the Ukraine-Russian conflict. (And to a lesser extent what is happening on the Gaza strip.)

Enraging Putin is not a path to resolving the issue.

It is becoming ever more obvious that there are no statesmen in this administration, just run of the mill politicians. Floundering around with foreign policy in the interests of keeping a job is stupid, dangerous, and in the end most likely self-defeating.

 

[jomar]

the reporting i listened to last night suggested that whilst the food aid vehicles were complying and acting in accordance with the IDF, this information was not passed downline to the people who believed they identified a terrorist (still don't know how true or false that specific claim is) in one of the vehicles which they then targeted. These vehicles were all easily identifiable by logos on their roofs and sides. When they saw a survivor from the first vehicle be picked up by the second, they then targeted that one, and when two survivors of that attack were picked up by the third vehicle IT was targeted with a loss of all on board.

is it conceivable as a story? perhaps, but to knowingly and willingly destroy all the aid workers plus prevent another attempt at getting help to starving Gazans, it is absolutely unacceptable. do i, personally believe it was all a confusion? no, not really, but that's neither here nor there since we'll likely never have it confirmed publicly anyway.

Israel has begun (it says) opening more routes for aid into Gaza after a heated phone call with President Biden where matters of slow walking Israeli funding/arms and the implementation of sanctions were presented to netanyahu.

To be clear, I’m not excusing the IDF, but yes it’s very conceivable. We only have to look at Tamir Rice in the US who cops rolled up on and shot without so much as a warning. For some reason dispatch did not pass on the callers comment that Tamir was a child, seemed challenged and that what he had looked like a practice gun because of the orange barrel tip.

But if that wasn’t the case, why did the IDF not believe the food aid vehicles were legit or was there another fuckup in play?

 

[jomar]

Biden and his handlers are floundering.......again. They are mixing domestic politics with foreign policy and that is a toxic brew. With regards to Hamas they are trying to play both ends against the middle. Trying to satisfy the parties Jewish constituents and the Muslim constituents simultaneously and that can't be done. There are two states in which the Muslim voters can swing the vote, Minnesota and Michigan. Minnesota is safely blue, Michigan is a swing state. Their vacillating policy re. Israel is basically dragging out the conflict which only results in more opportunities for mistakes and casualties. He/they should have stood solidly behind Israel and then go to the Muslim voters and make their case as to why. Muslims are not monolithic and for the most part are reasonable individuals.

In a semi-related, and equally stupid, maneuver Blinken has flatly stated that Ukraine will join NATO. If it is your intention to move the Russian hand closer to the nuclear trigger, that's how you go about it. In this case it appears that they see this as a jab against the Republican congress and hence Trump and the block on the vote for military aid to Ukraine. The block on that vote has virtually nothing to do with Ukraine and everything to do with border policy. This is a weak, and dangerous, card poorly played.

Some points;

The legislation proposed by the democrats merely enshrined in law what current policy is, it was NOT a solution.

The longer the border remains out of control the less concerned the US public will be over the Ukraine-Russian conflict. (And to a lesser extent what is happening on the Gaza strip.)

Enraging Putin is not a path to resolving the issue.

It is becoming ever more obvious that there are no statesmen in this administration, just run of the mill politicians. Floundering around with foreign policy in the interests of keeping a job is stupid, dangerous, and in the end most likely self-defeating.

Maybe Biden should ask trump to write a few love letters.

 

[icanhelp1]

Biden and his handlers are floundering.......again. They are mixing domestic politics with foreign policy and that is a toxic brew. With regards to Hamas they are trying to play both ends against the middle. Trying to satisfy the parties Jewish constituents and the Muslim constituents simultaneously and that can't be done. There are two states in which the Muslim voters can swing the vote, Minnesota and Michigan. Minnesota is safely blue, Michigan is a swing state. Their vacillating policy re. Israel is basically dragging out the conflict which only results in more opportunities for mistakes and casualties. He/they should have stood solidly behind Israel and then go to the Muslim voters and make their case as to why. Muslims are not monolithic and for the most part are reasonable individuals.

In a semi-related, and equally stupid, maneuver Blinken has flatly stated that Ukraine will join NATO. If it is your intention to move the Russian hand closer to the nuclear trigger, that's how you go about it. In this case it appears that they see this as a jab against the Republican congress and hence Trump and the block on the vote for military aid to Ukraine. The block on that vote has virtually nothing to do with Ukraine and everything to do with border policy. This is a weak, and dangerous, card poorly played.

Some points;

The legislation proposed by the democrats merely enshrined in law what current policy is, it was NOT a solution.

The longer the border remains out of control the less concerned the US public will be over the Ukraine-Russian conflict. (And to a lesser extent what is happening on the Gaza strip.)

Enraging Putin is not a path to resolving the issue.

It is becoming ever more obvious that there are no statesmen in this administration, just run of the mill politicians. Floundering around with foreign policy in the interests of keeping a job is stupid, dangerous, and in the end most likely self-defeating.

That NATO proclamation was about the dumbest and most irresponsible statement ever. The sooner Biden is out of office the sooner clowns like Blinken disappear. That dumbass statement pushed us closer to nuclear annihilation.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

That NATO proclamation was about the dumbest and most irresponsible statement ever. The sooner Biden is out of office the sooner clowns like Blinken disappear. That dumbass statement pushed us closer to nuclear annihilation.

Biden doesn't speak for NATO. Biden is President of the US, and the US a member of NATO.

 

[icanhelp1]

Biden doesn't speak for NATO. Biden is President of the US, and the US a member of NATO.

Pretty official to most of us who listen.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Pretty official to most of us who listen.

Doesn't matter who listens to whom. The US in not the head of NATO, and you attributing Biden to be the defacto head, just shows you lack the knowledge to have your posts accepted as fact, or even considered. The later part is my personal opinion.