closed Thread

[Noor]

But you don't have to irrevocably link all Palestinians with Hamas. I worked with Palestinians. They were all Baptists.

Totally, the ones I know are Catholic, Muslim, and anti Hamas.

 

[Noor]

I think you need to recheck the Quran on that. Who, by the way, did you think lived in Jerricho when Moses's band (sans Moses) entered the region and knocked 'dem walls down?

What part of the Quran are you referring to? Also wasn’t it Joshua, who knocked the walls down?

 

[Sean Renaud]

Pretty much, yes, except that in the case of America, the European invaders didn't have a prior history of Europeans living in the region and the Zionists did have a history of prior settlement in the Holy Land. (The people they're displacing/trying to exterminate, though, have a history of continuous living in the region.) Another difference is that, although the Europeans did have a sense of a high worth of the land they were invading, it's nothing like the worth the Holyland is held it--but not just by Jews. By Muslims and Christians as well.

I do think there are moral equivalence connections, but I'm not sure if you thought there was more of a point in raising the America issue.

The Holy Land is MOSTLY important because it lies or at least did at an excellent place to to meet between Asian Nations and European Nations. It would in no way shock me to find out that people knew the value of the land and the legends got built up around that not the other way around. This fact a long with no small amount of fairly dumb luck that subsaharan Africa, Indigenous Americans and Indigenous Australians were so far behind the curve. Two of the groups were separated by literal oceans and until good sailing ships were invented the Sahara might as well have been an ocean. So knowledge and goods didn't make the jump from other cultures to those ones.

I'm not 100% certain how strong the moral equivalence is. Prior to World War 2 its not exactly like Europeans weren't doing the same to each other just with less success for a lot of reasons mostly listed above. With WW1 and WW2 everybody kind of agreed that collectively we'd been psychopaths and worse we really had the power to do things now that nations, if not the world (which I think is an exaggeration for a lot of reasons) would never recover from. In what amounted in real terms to final acts of cruelty the Middle East which was mostly formed after WW1 but still we dropped a nation on people because we felt bad.

Then many nations primarily in Africa but other places as were stuck with countries they had never learned to maintain because they had been the lower class for the most part in their own nations. Its functionally the same thing that happened to Europe after the fall of Rome. Technology that you can't use and books you can't read are kinda fucking worthless.

That isn't to excuse what America did to the Indigenous people and frighteningly recently. We like to treat it like its ancient history we were still being pretty fucked up to them as recently as the 1950s. Even if you only want to count direct violence some of you older fucks, your grandparents were literally there.

By contrast however Israel fell to Rome so on and so forth. It had been centuries since they had any truly valid claim to the land.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I think you need to recheck the Quran on that. Who, by the way, did you think lived in Jerricho when Moses's band (sans Moses) entered the region and knocked 'dem walls down?

That was Dwyane the Rock Johnson vs Chris Jericho. This was before he an Moana went island hopping. DUH.

 

[Lazaran]

If you're so morally laced up, how do you feel about invaders just showing up on the shores of a continent on top of an indigenous population and creating their own country by military force and pushing the indigenous population into enclaves in the most unproductive sectors of the region? And if you are so morally laced up, why wouldn't you justify the indigenous population trying to defend where they lived?

You really have no idea what happened in that region after WWII, do you?

•
I’ve made it quite clear that I will call out a contemporary heinous act without fear or favor.

For situation that involve historical periods where I wasn’t alive / present, and "man" was not what I (or modern society) would consider "civilized", I would take many factors and details into consideration before condemning anything.

Macro-societal level perceived heinous acts that occurred when I wasn’t alive / present, involving human migration and access to natural resources, do not inherently / necessarily warrant condemnation. “Needs must” comes into play.

Specific heinous acts perpetrated by a / the government / population that occurred when I wasn’t alive / present, but are well researched and documented can easily be condemned. (Wounded Knee, slavery, etc)

When it comes to the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, I was alive / present in the moment and easily condemned it based on video and verified documentary evidence. - You know who didn’t condemn it or show any concern for the victims???







Side note:

I’ve researched the hell out of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict AND the history and religions of the region, and I am well aware of the perceived heinous acts committed by some Jews on the Israeli side before, during, and after the nebulous region that WAS "Palestine" / "Judea" began to coalesce into the current Jewish state of Israel and the Palestinian territories of Gaza and The West Bank. But in light of the persecution and genocide Jews faced globally , plus the British colonial occupation of "Palestine" / "Judea", and the desperation for a Jewish State where Jews would be a controlling majority, (thus precluding their continued / continuing persecution) one might hesitate before declaring absolute condemnation of Israel for some Jew’s perceived heinous acts. And, notably, Israel wasn’t a state and was sans any centralized governing body when some of the worst of the perceived heinous acts were perpetrated by some Jews.

Contemporarily, I WOULD condemn Jewish settlers in the West Bank and those once in Gaza, but that whole situation is murky af. One would have to be permanently living in the area to make a determination if condemnation is / was warranted.



To think, I once was reluctant to condemn the Palestinians who were "ONLY" launching primitive rockets at Israel, slinging stones at Jews and their property, and occasionally murdering Jews with a knife or a bomb, because Israel WAS retaliating quite forcefully and with extreme prejudice.

The things we become numb to when exposed to it enough…

 

[Noor]

The Holy Land is MOSTLY important because it lies or at least did at an excellent place to to meet between Asian Nations and European Nations. It would in no way shock me to find out that people knew the value of the land and the legends got built up around that not the other way around. This fact a long with no small amount of fairly dumb luck that subsaharan Africa, Indigenous Americans and Indigenous Australians were so far behind the curve. Two of the groups were separated by literal oceans and until good sailing ships were invented the Sahara might as well have been an ocean. So knowledge and goods didn't make the jump from other cultures to those ones.

I'm not 100% certain how strong the moral equivalence is. Prior to World War 2 its not exactly like Europeans weren't doing the same to each other just with less success for a lot of reasons mostly listed above. With WW1 and WW2 everybody kind of agreed that collectively we'd been psychopaths and worse we really had the power to do things now that nations, if not the world (which I think is an exaggeration for a lot of reasons) would never recover from. In what amounted in real terms to final acts of cruelty the Middle East which was mostly formed after WW1 but still we dropped a nation on people because we felt bad.

Then many nations primarily in Africa but other places as were stuck with countries they had never learned to maintain because they had been the lower class for the most part in their own nations. Its functionally the same thing that happened to Europe after the fall of Rome. Technology that you can't use and books you can't read are kinda fucking worthless.

That isn't to excuse what America did to the Indigenous people and frighteningly recently. We like to treat it like its ancient history we were still being pretty fucked up to them as recently as the 1950s. Even if you only want to count direct violence some of you older fucks, your grandparents were literally there.

By contrast however Israel fell to Rome so on and so forth. It had been centuries since they had any truly valid claim to the land.

I don’t know if you are aware of this but Native American women and First Nations women have been disappearing. I probably wouldn’t know it if I didn’t have a fair number of native friends and live close to the border with Manitoba which still have a fair amount of indigenous people as does my state. So depending on what is disappearing these women, it’s still happening in 2020s.

 

[Noor]

The Holy Land is MOSTLY important because it lies or at least did at an excellent place to to meet between Asian Nations and European Nations. It would in no way shock me to find out that people knew the value of the land and the legends got built up around that not the other way around. This fact a long with no small amount of fairly dumb luck that subsaharan Africa, Indigenous Americans and Indigenous Australians were so far behind the curve. Two of the groups were separated by literal oceans and until good sailing ships were invented the Sahara might as well have been an ocean. So knowledge and goods didn't make the jump from other cultures to those ones.

I'm not 100% certain how strong the moral equivalence is. Prior to World War 2 its not exactly like Europeans weren't doing the same to each other just with less success for a lot of reasons mostly listed above. With WW1 and WW2 everybody kind of agreed that collectively we'd been psychopaths and worse we really had the power to do things now that nations, if not the world (which I think is an exaggeration for a lot of reasons) would never recover from. In what amounted in real terms to final acts of cruelty the Middle East which was mostly formed after WW1 but still we dropped a nation on people because we felt bad.

Then many nations primarily in Africa but other places as were stuck with countries they had never learned to maintain because they had been the lower class for the most part in their own nations. Its functionally the same thing that happened to Europe after the fall of Rome. Technology that you can't use and books you can't read are kinda fucking worthless.

That isn't to excuse what America did to the Indigenous people and frighteningly recently. We like to treat it like its ancient history we were still being pretty fucked up to them as recently as the 1950s. Even if you only want to count direct violence some of you older fucks, your grandparents were literally there.

By contrast however Israel fell to Rome so on and so forth. It had been centuries since they had any truly valid claim to the land.

The Holy land is only holy because of the Jews. Jesus was a Jew in Israel, on the land. The Jews may have lost battles to the Romans, but Romans are gone. Jews are still here whereas many groups in history are not, and I believe they will continue to be long after other groups are gone.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

The Holy land is only holy because of the Jews. Jesus was a Jew in Israel, on the land. The Jews may have lost battles to the Romans, but Roman’s are gone. Jews are still here whereas many groups in history are not, and I believe they will continue to be long after other groups are gone.

This is rubbish.

Islam and Christianity consider it incredibly important and many ancient sites were/are there together with the Al Aqsa Mosque.

The third oldest church in Christiandom was in Gaza and culturally of significant importance to Christianity.

At least it was. Until Israel flattened it in December.

Point of information - Israel has managed to destroy every university building, most schools, virtually all places of religious worship throughout Gaza.

Apparently they were conveniently all Hamas strongholds.

How to identify a genocide without saying it’s a genocide, look at the infrastructure that gets destroyed.

 

[Noor]

This is rubbish.

Islam and Christianity consider it incredibly important and many ancient sites were/are there together with the Al Aqsa Mosque.

The third oldest church in Christiandom was in Gaza and culturally of significant importance to Christianity.

At least it was. Until Israel flattened it in December.

Point of information - Israel has managed to destroy every university building, most schools, virtually all places of religious worship throughout Gaza.

Apparently they were conveniently all Hamas strongholds.

How to identify a genocide without saying it’s a genocide, look at the infrastructure that gets destroyed.

The Jews predate Christianity and Islam, hardly rubbish.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

The Jews predate Christianity and Islam, hardly rubbish.

Pre dating doesn’t automatically mean nothing else matters.

 

[Noor]

Pre dating doesn’t automatically mean nothing else matters.

It sure does when you are talking about indigenous populations.

 

[ll74]

Looks like talks broke down yet again and Israel pulled their negotiating teams yet again.

Israel pulls out of truce talks in Cairo, cites Hamas' 'delusional demands': Live updates​

"Israel did not receive in Cairo any new proposal of Hamas on the release of our hostages,'' Netanyahu's office said in a statement. "A change in Hamas' positions will allow the negotiations to advance,'' he said.

 

[Noor]

Looks like talks broke down yet again and Israel pulled their negotiating teams yet again.

Israel pulls out of truce talks in Cairo, cites Hamas' 'delusional demands': Live updates​

Apparently Hamas has not heard from Sinwar for the last 10 days, not sure talks without him would hold much weight anyway.

 

[ll74]

Apparently Hamas has not heard from Sinwar for the last 10 days, not sure talks without him would hold much weight anyway.

Source?

 

[Noor]

Source?

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/isra...-overnight-in-gaza-and-west-bank-live-updates

 

[Noor]

Source?

https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-785949

 

[ll74]

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/isra...-overnight-in-gaza-and-west-bank-live-updates

Any non Israeli sources corroborate?
I'm skeptical if not.

 

[Noor]

Any non Israeli sources corroborate?
I'm skeptical if not.

Reuters put it out, are you skeptical of Reuters?

 

[ll74]

Reuters put it out, are you skeptical of Reuters?

I asked if it was corroborated by non Israeli sites and would be skeptical if it wasn't.

I would do the same if someone posted something from al Jazeera that wasn't corroborated.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

It sure does when you are talking about indigenous populations.

The Palestinians are literally, genetically, the indigenous population of that area. They never left, they converted to other religions.

Thats fact. It’s been proven time and time again. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/

So try again?

 

[ll74]

The Palestinians are literally, genetically, the indigenous population of that area. They never left, they converted to other religions.

Thats fact. It’s been proven time and time again. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/

So try again?

Yah, you may want to research where the Jewish people originated from.

They both have ancestoral claims to the land.

 

[KeithD]

It sure does when you are talking about indigenous populations.

You're ignoring the "who was there before the Jews?" issue. It sinks your reasoning. Who were inside the walls of Jericho when Jashua led the Jews into the "promised land" to take it over by force?

The Palestinians connect to the continuous indigenous people of the region tracing back to before Jewish occupation (if you go by Jewish scriptures). Jewish scriptures themselves have the Jewish religion establishing after Abraham took his family to Egypt and they had to migrate back to take over the area, displacing people who were there already.

And on who can claim the area as its Holyland, yes, both Christianity and Islam formed out of the Jews, but that doesn't make their sacred connection to the area any less than that of the Jews. According to Islam, Mohammad ascended to heaven from the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and according to Christian scriptures, Jesus was crucified outside of the walls of Jerusalem. You can't get more sacred for those two religions than that.

 

[ll74]

If "we had ancestors there" is how people have ownership of the area, we'd all be fighting over Africa.

Lots of people used to live lots of places. It doesnt mean they have a right to anything.....

 

[KeithD]

If "we had ancestors there" is how people have ownership of the area, we'd all be fighting over Africa.

Lots of people used to live lots of places. It doesnt mean they have a right to anything.....

And Christians (the Crusader period--the Outremers) and Islam ruled in the Holyland for as long as Israel has--and the predecessors of the current Palestinians for even longer probably--so what's giving the Israelis any more right to anything or the moral high ground there than anyone else? They grabbed the region by force after WWII against the efforts of the victors of the war who claimed the right to recarve the globe.

 

[ll74]

And Christians (the Crusader period) and Islam ruled in the Holyland for as long as Israel has--and the predecessors of the current Palestinians for even longer probably--so what's giving the Israelis any more right to anything or the moral high ground there than anyone else?

History is great for understanding how we got here. No single group has any "right of return" because they were once there and someone kicked them out.

I've never said anyone has any moral high ground. People need to work together to find peace. As far as I'm concerned, the whole religious angle is horseshot.