closed Thread

[Noor]

The Holy Land is MOSTLY important because it lies or at least did at an excellent place to to meet between Asian Nations and European Nations. It would in no way shock me to find out that people knew the value of the land and the legends got built up around that not the other way around. This fact a long with no small amount of fairly dumb luck that subsaharan Africa, Indigenous Americans and Indigenous Australians were so far behind the curve. Two of the groups were separated by literal oceans and until good sailing ships were invented the Sahara might as well have been an ocean. So knowledge and goods didn't make the jump from other cultures to those ones.

I'm not 100% certain how strong the moral equivalence is. Prior to World War 2 its not exactly like Europeans weren't doing the same to each other just with less success for a lot of reasons mostly listed above. With WW1 and WW2 everybody kind of agreed that collectively we'd been psychopaths and worse we really had the power to do things now that nations, if not the world (which I think is an exaggeration for a lot of reasons) would never recover from. In what amounted in real terms to final acts of cruelty the Middle East which was mostly formed after WW1 but still we dropped a nation on people because we felt bad.

Then many nations primarily in Africa but other places as were stuck with countries they had never learned to maintain because they had been the lower class for the most part in their own nations. Its functionally the same thing that happened to Europe after the fall of Rome. Technology that you can't use and books you can't read are kinda fucking worthless.

That isn't to excuse what America did to the Indigenous people and frighteningly recently. We like to treat it like its ancient history we were still being pretty fucked up to them as recently as the 1950s. Even if you only want to count direct violence some of you older fucks, your grandparents were literally there.

By contrast however Israel fell to Rome so on and so forth. It had been centuries since they had any truly valid claim to the land.

The Holy land is only holy because of the Jews. Jesus was a Jew in Israel, on the land. The Jews may have lost battles to the Romans, but Romans are gone. Jews are still here whereas many groups in history are not, and I believe they will continue to be long after other groups are gone.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

The Holy land is only holy because of the Jews. Jesus was a Jew in Israel, on the land. The Jews may have lost battles to the Romans, but Roman’s are gone. Jews are still here whereas many groups in history are not, and I believe they will continue to be long after other groups are gone.

This is rubbish.

Islam and Christianity consider it incredibly important and many ancient sites were/are there together with the Al Aqsa Mosque.

The third oldest church in Christiandom was in Gaza and culturally of significant importance to Christianity.

At least it was. Until Israel flattened it in December.

Point of information - Israel has managed to destroy every university building, most schools, virtually all places of religious worship throughout Gaza.

Apparently they were conveniently all Hamas strongholds.

How to identify a genocide without saying it’s a genocide, look at the infrastructure that gets destroyed.

 

[Noor]

This is rubbish.

Islam and Christianity consider it incredibly important and many ancient sites were/are there together with the Al Aqsa Mosque.

The third oldest church in Christiandom was in Gaza and culturally of significant importance to Christianity.

At least it was. Until Israel flattened it in December.

Point of information - Israel has managed to destroy every university building, most schools, virtually all places of religious worship throughout Gaza.

Apparently they were conveniently all Hamas strongholds.

How to identify a genocide without saying it’s a genocide, look at the infrastructure that gets destroyed.

The Jews predate Christianity and Islam, hardly rubbish.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

The Jews predate Christianity and Islam, hardly rubbish.

Pre dating doesn’t automatically mean nothing else matters.

 

[Noor]

Pre dating doesn’t automatically mean nothing else matters.

It sure does when you are talking about indigenous populations.

 

[ll74]

Looks like talks broke down yet again and Israel pulled their negotiating teams yet again.

Israel pulls out of truce talks in Cairo, cites Hamas' 'delusional demands': Live updates​

"Israel did not receive in Cairo any new proposal of Hamas on the release of our hostages,'' Netanyahu's office said in a statement. "A change in Hamas' positions will allow the negotiations to advance,'' he said.

 

[Noor]

Looks like talks broke down yet again and Israel pulled their negotiating teams yet again.

Israel pulls out of truce talks in Cairo, cites Hamas' 'delusional demands': Live updates​

Apparently Hamas has not heard from Sinwar for the last 10 days, not sure talks without him would hold much weight anyway.

 

[ll74]

Apparently Hamas has not heard from Sinwar for the last 10 days, not sure talks without him would hold much weight anyway.

Source?

 

[Noor]

Source?

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/isra...-overnight-in-gaza-and-west-bank-live-updates

 

[Noor]

Source?

https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-785949

 

[ll74]

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/isra...-overnight-in-gaza-and-west-bank-live-updates

Any non Israeli sources corroborate?
I'm skeptical if not.

 

[Noor]

Any non Israeli sources corroborate?
I'm skeptical if not.

Reuters put it out, are you skeptical of Reuters?

 

[ll74]

Reuters put it out, are you skeptical of Reuters?

I asked if it was corroborated by non Israeli sites and would be skeptical if it wasn't.

I would do the same if someone posted something from al Jazeera that wasn't corroborated.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

It sure does when you are talking about indigenous populations.

The Palestinians are literally, genetically, the indigenous population of that area. They never left, they converted to other religions.

Thats fact. It’s been proven time and time again. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/

So try again?

 

[ll74]

The Palestinians are literally, genetically, the indigenous population of that area. They never left, they converted to other religions.

Thats fact. It’s been proven time and time again. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/

So try again?

Yah, you may want to research where the Jewish people originated from.

They both have ancestoral claims to the land.

 

[KeithD]

It sure does when you are talking about indigenous populations.

You're ignoring the "who was there before the Jews?" issue. It sinks your reasoning. Who were inside the walls of Jericho when Jashua led the Jews into the "promised land" to take it over by force?

The Palestinians connect to the continuous indigenous people of the region tracing back to before Jewish occupation (if you go by Jewish scriptures). Jewish scriptures themselves have the Jewish religion establishing after Abraham took his family to Egypt and they had to migrate back to take over the area, displacing people who were there already.

And on who can claim the area as its Holyland, yes, both Christianity and Islam formed out of the Jews, but that doesn't make their sacred connection to the area any less than that of the Jews. According to Islam, Mohammad ascended to heaven from the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and according to Christian scriptures, Jesus was crucified outside of the walls of Jerusalem. You can't get more sacred for those two religions than that.

 

[ll74]

If "we had ancestors there" is how people have ownership of the area, we'd all be fighting over Africa.

Lots of people used to live lots of places. It doesnt mean they have a right to anything.....

 

[KeithD]

If "we had ancestors there" is how people have ownership of the area, we'd all be fighting over Africa.

Lots of people used to live lots of places. It doesnt mean they have a right to anything.....

And Christians (the Crusader period--the Outremers) and Islam ruled in the Holyland for as long as Israel has--and the predecessors of the current Palestinians for even longer probably--so what's giving the Israelis any more right to anything or the moral high ground there than anyone else? They grabbed the region by force after WWII against the efforts of the victors of the war who claimed the right to recarve the globe.

 

[ll74]

And Christians (the Crusader period) and Islam ruled in the Holyland for as long as Israel has--and the predecessors of the current Palestinians for even longer probably--so what's giving the Israelis any more right to anything or the moral high ground there than anyone else?

History is great for understanding how we got here. No single group has any "right of return" because they were once there and someone kicked them out.

I've never said anyone has any moral high ground. People need to work together to find peace. As far as I'm concerned, the whole religious angle is horseshot.

 

[dmallord]

And returning to the present day ... neither side has found a peaceful resolution. Most of that stems directly from religious intolerance. Never mind who owned or lived were - that's a non-starter solution. Those people are gone. The present people must come to grips with how to get along with one another.

How do you overcome that hatred to achieve a lasting peace? It will not happen with Hamas using textbooks to school children positing science questions on gravity illustrated by Arab gunmen shooting Israelis down in the street or a stated political aim of irradicating all Jews within its core documents. It doesn't come by attacks against one another that precipitate counter-attacks ad infinitum.

Israel is not helping the issue with further land grabs and extreme treatment of the Palestinians. Nor by controlling waterways, food supplies, medical access, and work restrictions on some two million nearly subjugation situations. That only feeds the region's despair, poverty, anger, and continuous strife.

It's as if the whole region needs a UN interdiction. An outside force that steps between the two parties and acts to disarm Hamas and corrals the leaders - perhaps Gitmo as a place to cool off until they are no longer a threat. That would still involve bloodyness, but at least it would be a unified battle against both warring parties. I suspect Israel would be open to ending such A legal body that imposes restrictions on Israel and a force with sets of rules that allow the Gaza region to heal and begin to prosper without oversight by Israel. An outside force that benevolently governs until a few generations have expired, and Gazans see some prosperity by co-existence and a threat by the UN that any more attempts will be met by harsh reprisals set into the governing rules for the region.

Some would say that's been tried before, and yes, it failed when the Brits pulled out. Shows that no one stayed the course long enough or set into stone a set of 'iron-fisted' benevolence. Maybe we could send in Trump - he'd declare 'victory' within a day and set things right.

 

[Noor]

I asked if it was corroborated by non Israeli sites and would be skeptical if it wasn't.

I would do the same if someone posted something from al Jazeera that wasn't corroborated.

The Palestinians are literally, genetically, the indigenous population of that area. They never left, they converted to other religions.

Thats fact. It’s been proven time and time again. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/

So

The Palestinians are literally, genetically, the indigenous population of that area. They never left, they converted to other religions.

Thats fact. It’s been proven time and time again. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/

So try again?

From your own link
“Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences.”

 

[ll74]

House of Commons set to vote on two measures on the war. Scottish Nationals are calling for an immediate and full cease fire. The Labour party has filed a motion for temp cease fire but added additional conditions.

UK Labour is backing an ‘immediate’ Gaza cease-fire. But the devil’s in the details

The Labour amendment calls for work to deliver a two-state solution in the region, and reaffirms the importance of recognizing a Palestinian state as a “contribution to rather than outcome of” any peace process.

But the amendment also removes any reference to the phrase “collective punishment of the Palestinian people,” which the SNP motion contains. Collective punishment — indiscriminate retribution against civilians — is illegal under international law.

 

[ll74]

The people are now openly calling for Hamas to leave....the EU and fellow Jew haters are trying to save Hamas

Wtf are you talking about?

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

Wtf are you talking about?

Norman Finkelstein has probably put it best. Group dementia. Literally the only explanation for the at odds with reality stuff coming out of the pro-Israel lobby that is literally enabling a famine, genocide and mass displacement of an entire indigenous population.

 

[ll74]

There are mass demonstrations in Gaza against Hamas, it's all over Arab media

So you could absolutely provide a source for this information instead of just your usual random non sequiturs.

There were Arab demonstrations and statements against Hamas before October 7 as well.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org...ritique-and-condemnation-hamas-october-7-2023