AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

[MelissaBaby]

I am aware - and I am a big fan of her work. But that only adds to my argument, not the other way around. Are we saying that the way Melissa writes is the only way to write? Of course not. And so just because she does things a certain way, and does it brilliantly I might add, that doesn't mean that I have to agree when she says that one MUST include details like that, or approaching things from a certain angle. As I said above:

I appreciate your positive view of my work. I did not say "must", I said "should". I was not trying to tell anyone what they must do, I was giving my opinion on what I consider best practices.

 

[AwkwardMD]

This makes me so happy. Genuinely thrilled at the participation.

 

[Omenainen]

This is the first time I have seen, or discussed, any of @AwkwardlySet’s review. Though - as he said - he did kindly ask my permission.

This may come across as adversarial, particularly in the current heated climate (though I am much calmer now), but this is what I was expecting from a review.

I have not read any of @AwkwardMD or @Omenainen’s previous reviews - which was stupid in retrospect. I thought I understood their general nature by reputation, but I clearly didn’t.

I was triggered by two things in the AMD / Om review and one in a subsequent PM. I have offered to either explain these issues in public or in private.

I now also have some understanding why elements of my story were triggering for them. I honestly had no clue, maybe I should have.

I have written an essay about how I wrote A Hard Day’s Night, my motivations, where ideas for elements came from, what I was trying to do and so on.

While it’s not a self-review, it does comment on where I feel I did what I set out to do, and where I didn’t. This essay mentions neither AMD nor Om and does not mention their previous review.

There are a couple of places where my essay overlaps with things they have said. But the essay is in no way a rebuttal of their review. In places it is in accord with it. Though I don’t mention this.

One theme is the yawning divide between the writer’s intent and the reader’s interpretation. Particularly when you are as inexperienced a writer as me. And particularly when you are writing about personal matters while also trying to preserve some privacy.

I don’t believe that there is anything in my essay that either AMD or Om would find objectionable. But - just in case - I have offered that they can read it and veto anything they don’t like.

I think I’ve been naive in this matter to date. And I may be even more naive in thinking that we can get some closure on it now. Maybe too much has been said.

But, I’d like for AMD, Om and I to understand each other better. I think we are probably at least 90% on the same side re de-stigmatizing sex work. But clearly we have different approaches to doing this.

This note is not intended to fan the flames. So if anyone finds part of it objectionable, please tell me and I will remove that part.

Emily

I won’t be interacting with you any more. This episode was quite enough.

 

[jsmiam]

Sidenote: I’m on my phone, too hard to do elaborate typing and copy pasting. I’m answering easy to type ones only, waiting for time with a real keyboard and mouse to reply to awkwardmd.

I've been following this thread for years, and I know for sure there are over a dozen different references to grammar and flow just from the last 12 months. Flow and readability are mentioned in some way in pretty much in every single review on the thread, it certainly never came across as a personal affront imho.

you are correct, but I was very specifically saying, “grammar within dialog”, such as, (fabricated example) ‘and bob said, “ain’t that the truth?”’, and in a hypothetical critique, saying “ain’t is slang.” (Imperfect example, but back in time to the review that started it all, the chosen citation, the very first citation, was of dialog, and that grammar was what was used to demonstrate the grammar for a couple paragraphs. (Before a series of later clarifications in later posts that the grammar problems were throughout.)

I have no idea what this is about. Anyone with too much free time can go through my forum posting history and tell me if they find something.

Yes, I was referring to the exchange in the victoria14xs thread. a retort to something said was (loosely) “but you found our thread.” You can deny there was a tone to that statement, and maybe it’s even true (take a vacation if you truly believe your denial), but it isn’t unreasonable to read what you said as having some zing to it.

…BUT you missed the context. This is at the beginning of the same review…

I believe you missed mine. I acknowledged my examples were found quickly and unscientifically. I even agree with you. They weren’t very good examples at all. Except for the part where they reinforced my main point, which is (and somewhat acknowledged by awkwardmd), ‘there ain’t none.’ There aren’t examples of them picking apart grammar when it is within dialog. I spent a bit of time scanning and found none. No one else has come forth with any either. Chances are, there are examples somewhere. But I grant myself permission to claim victory here. If there were lots of examples, they would have been found by now and would have been easy to find.

… Even if the recollection is correct, without giving specifics there's a risk that people fill the gaps with imaginings and we end up further away from a shared understanding of what happened.

In this case one option might be to use the advanced search functionality to look for posts by Omenainen mentioning EM, or vice versa, from before the date of the review.

See above. Noteworthy that even if omen denies it, awkward seemed to acknowledge my reference.

…This has been said elsewhere, but given how much has been posted in the last view days it's easily missed, so I'll note it again: the issue that A & O were discussing with sentence fragments is not limited to dialogue. It can be seen elsewhere in the story, including the opening.

Had I written the review, I'd have chosen a non-dialogue example to make the point, in order to avoid this lengthy detour. But I don't think it's fair to go to "revenge" as a motivation for raising an issue that occurs prominently in the story, including non-dialogue passages. Isn't it easier to suppose that they genuinely saw this as a weakness and just didn't pick the ideal example for illustrating that point?

Although you are correct, my source was the original review, not later clarifications. And my primary premise was whether or not it’s reasonable to question impartiality based just on the review, vs later clarifications. I remain unconvinced of impartiality, but that’s just me.

But…It’s the refusal to admit their mistakes (they say they do, but they kinda don’t) that makes people like me think “extreme over abundance of confidence, self worth, and self esteem” with those two. Why won’t they say that bolded part themselves? (They still haven’t.)

 

[jsmiam]

…I hope this clarifies our position, and if it does not then I look forward to trying again!

Yes. A Star Trek vs Star Wars reference (so not exactly Kumquat’s law): You are (pick whichever you like best) the logical Vulcan side of Spock, omen is the unruly human side. Or equivalently, you are the Human side (calmer) of Lieutenant Worf/Torres (voyager) and Omen is the Klingon (warrior/easy to anger) side.

If the review was truly impartial, as you repeatedly have said many times, I’ll take your word for it.

This (gesturing to all this) probably would have been a full sized storm anyway, even if it had all been kept in house in this thread only, where it should have.

 

[Omenainen]

you are correct, but I was very specifically saying, “grammar within dialog”, such as, (fabricated example) ‘and bob said, “ain’t that the truth?”’, and in a hypothetical critique, saying “ain’t is slang.” (Imperfect example, but back in time to the review that started it all, the chosen citation, the very first citation, was of dialog, and that grammar was what was used to demonstrate the grammar for a couple paragraphs. (Before a series of later clarifications in later posts that the grammar problems were throughout.)

Yes. The things I will be taking with me from this review is
- to pick the citations with more care (it wasn’t as if there weren’t more to choose from), because picking them from dialogue leads to this sort of observations instead of focusing on the point made
- to never engage in any sort of PMs over reviews. There’s been times when people have sent us additional questions over PMs or argued with the review afterwards, but going forward, I’m going to direct all that out here in the open.

Yes, I was referring to the exchange in the victoria14xs thread. a retort to something said was (loosely) “but you found our thread.” You can deny there was a tone to that statement, and maybe it’s even true (take a vacation if you truly believe your denial), but it isn’t unreasonable to read what you said as having some zing to it.

Seriously?

See above. Noteworthy that even if omen denies it, awkward seemed to acknowledge my reference.

Okay, let’s see. In case it’s not obvious, I’m now annoyed with you, so I’ll put all the zing I can into this. If you think that clouds my judgement forever more, maybe it’s best if you don’t ever ask for a review.

The thread is here

Emily started a thread on AH that looks to me a lot like every other post at Story Feedback. I asked why it wasn’t in this forum. This is what we do, no? People come in looking for editors, we say go to Editor’s Forum, someone comes in to pitch story ideas, we say take it to Story Ideas?

Then there’s discussion on why it should be there or here. I still think the thread is very much okay, though I am a little wary of anyone but the author initiating it, and I still don’t see why it’s not on this forum as opposed to AH.

Emily said, and I quote

I wasn’t looking to tread on anyone’s toes. FWIW I don’t know much about the world outside AH. I still bear the scars from the General Board.

I did find it annoying that she’d claim ignorance over the existence of this forum, when she’s no newbie to forums and had demonstrably visited this forum enough to ask for a review in our thread. (Yes I had a feeling! Gasp! I’m also having one now, can you tell?) So, I answered “You did find our review thread in story feedback forum. Just saying.”

Now, tell me: How is this discriminating? How is this “loosely around sex work”? You know, if having any interactions with EM leads to vague accusations like this, then I’m even more resolute to not have any contact with her going forward. It is this tendency to drag the discussion from factual level to this very weird personal level that I very, very strongly oppose. In everybody.

Are you saying I’m not allowed to be irritated when people, when pointed out they’re in the wrong forum, don’t say “oh I see, I’ll take it there then”, but instead double down with excuses that seem feeble to me? You think I’m Bramblethorn or SimonDoom or something? Well I’m not.

Now that I’m suspicious of your motivations, I’ll quote your earlier post here in case you feel the urge to edit it later. I really, really think you should’ve had something stronger before coming up with this:

Questioning the impartiality:
If I’m not mistaken, there was a prior disagreement of sorts between Omen vs Emily, right? Before the review, although perhaps after the request for a review. Also loosely around sex work.

With that looming in the background, perhaps a recusal would have been better? Or just admitting some sprite was involved in the review?

 

[Devinter]

(Read The Christmas In July Luau)

The Christmas In July Luau, has two distinctly different sub-portrayals of sex workers. When I reviewed it, I loved one and detested the other, but I still recommend that story to anyone I think can handle the intensity.

Thought I'd have no problem. I've written some strange, dark stuff myself. Of course I can handle it, I thought! Mistakes were made. Finished page 4 and I'm like:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/50/63/9c/50639c1a376a7a9751d761bb0aff1939.jpg

 

[vagrantx]

Moi! I've read through about half the thread during the last week (sorry to see it derailing lately, but I have nothing at all to add to that), and after mustering some courage I'd like to toss my name onto your pile of potential reviewees.

I'm new to writing, and I'm plagued by bad habits which I'd like to nip in the bud. Lord knows it's impossible to train these away without help, so yeah, if you wouldn't mind? Kiiti!

https://literotica.com/s/encased
https://literotica.com/s/encased-ch-02-released
First submission got a bit borked and the ending was cut off, so had to split it in two. 4 pages in total, about 13k words. I know you've said any genre is okay but this is true non-con verging on horror, if that's too much I completely understand!

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Are you saying I’m not allowed to be irritated when people, when pointed out they’re in the wrong forum, don’t say “oh I see, I’ll take it there then”, but instead double down with excuses that seem feeble to me? You think I’m Bramblethorn or SimonDoom or something? Well I’m not.

Are you serious here? Who are you, forum police? I was actually the one who snapped at your belligerent posts in that thread about Victoria's story. You were way out of line with your criticism there and your insistence that the thread should be taken to the SF forum. If you have some weird case of OCD, you should just say it, otherwise, I don't understand the angry persistence you showed there.
You are also literally the only one in this thread who keeps escalating things, while everyone else is working in the opposite direction.

 

[AlinaX]

Enough, children! Go to your rooms.

 

[AlinaX]

https://literotica.com/s/encased
https://literotica.com/s/encased-ch-02-released
First submission got a bit borked and the ending was cut off, so had to split it in two.

I enjoyed this the other day. I thought the cut-off ending was deliberate and I liked it.

 

[vagrantx]

Enough, children! Go to your rooms.

A sheepish reply
"Yes Mistress, sorry Mistress"
Oh shit, wrong forum

 

[Bramblethorn]

See above.

I have seen above, but I'm unclear on whether this was the "loosely around sex work" discussion that you were referencing. Can you clarify whether that one did in fact involve SW?

 

[Omenainen]

Are you serious here? Who are you, forum police? I was actually the one who snapped at your belligerent posts in that thread about Victoria's story. You were way out of line with your criticism there and your insistence that the thread should be taken to the SF forum. If you have some weird case of OCD, you should just say it, otherwise, I don't understand the angry persistence you showed there.
You are also literally the only one in this thread who keeps escalating things, while everyone else is working in the opposite direction.

Okay.

 

[EmilyMiller]

For the record. None of our little worlds - mine included, especially mine - is quite so important as we think.

I genuinely had spent zero time in this forum before recent events. I tried GB and got horribly burned by some denizens. I posted stuff that should be in other forums - pause for irony - and got a shit load of nasty abuse (this was maybe month two).

So - for a long time - I just PMed people. Then tried Fetish & Sexuality, which you might think would be my thing. But I had the same thing with “being a sub is not a choice it’s a way of life thing” zealots. More burning, more nasty PMs.

So back to just PMs - then I started writing. Then I found AH. I have no idea whether or not you can check this, but I suspect that 95% of my posts are there. I’m not a creature of the forums. I’m a creature of AH.

It used to be my safe space (hah!)

People often come to AH and say - been here X years never knew this place existed. We are an archipelago. Some people flit between the islands. Some, like me, mostly stay in one place. There is a tendency in some (e.g. me) to think our island is the island.

A number of people on AH were complaining that there were not enough threads about writing and stories. So - given I normally try to do stuff about shit (I think this “it’s down to me to do it” complex is associated with ASD, but I may have that wrong). So I started a thread about Victoria’s bitter sweet story.

I of course did this in my own little world, it was meant to be responding to AH concerns. It was meant to be a positive thing. It certainly didn’t have malice a forethought.

I had a few weeks earlier asked AMD and Om to review a story. This wasn’t based on me spending time here. It was based on other authors mentioning it on AH. Maybe I should have put two and two together. But I didn’t.

Again, maybe it’s ASD, but I had no real clue Om was upset. I don’t always read people well. And, frankly, I don’t always pay that much attention.

FWIW one AH regular PMed me to say maybe move the thread to SR. But then I didn’t really get round thinking about it.

Nothing bad was intended. It was meant to be a good thing. I think it was as @StillStunned came up with an even better idea.

But I certainly apologize if I inadvertently gave offense.

Emily

 

[AlinaX]

Again, maybe it’s ASD, but I had no real clue Om was upset. I don’t always read people well. And, frankly, I don’t always pay that much attention.

I didn't get the sense at that time that anyone intended or took offence, although certainly there was confusion about why you would start a feedback thread in AH. (I actually find it a little frustrating that so many are doing it now, but n/m.)

It's a little weird to see people now reading more into than is really merited.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I love your work, Melissa - but I don't agree with this at all. Only if your story aims to portray some sort of high-level realism, and is of some considerable length, and includes many other references to how San Francisco truly was in that time would leaving this out be even remotely strange. In any other case, talking about AIDS is hardly going to add erotic value. If a story is around 10k words, and it's about a hot and spicy hook-up, I don't want that in the story - just like I don't want people to talk about STI's in stories where people are sleeping around with a lot of partners all willy-nilly. It may add to the realism, but it straight up takes away from the arousal aspect which is what those type of stories aim to maximize. Therefore, it strongly depends on what you're trying to achieve with the story if including details like this is an improvement or not in my opinion.

Secondly, if all potentially harmful fantasies can only be presented as such, that vastly limits the author's way to approach a topic and makes stories on the website more similar to one another. You don't have to take a moral stance on everything you write, and you also don't have to force-feed it to the reader. Let them decide. A story that comes to mind is @StillStunned 's Love at first sight - and without spoiling anything, it deals with a harmful fantasy. Sure, there's a few lines in there that acknowledges that the main character might not be proud of all of their actions, but I would not say it's being presented as harmful - and it's intentionally creepy. Stories like that stick out because they dare to challenge the status-quo, and oftentimes that adds to their value, not the other way around. A fantasy is just that; and I personally do not subscribe to the idea that us writing a story or two is going to make people go out into the real world and do horrible things that they wouldn't have found an excuse to do regardless.

I feel that now that I am more rested and lively, I owe you a bit of a better reply.

As to the San Francisco scenario, a quick google tells me that approximately 20,000 gay men died from AIDS in San Francisco in the 1980s. The epidemic was hardly a detail like trolley cars or fog. But I am afraid my example has diverted from rather than explained my point.

Much of this discussion seems to posit a false dichotomy, wherein any author writing about sex work has to choose between following after either Pretty Woman or Last Exit to Brooklyn. There is a world of gradation in between. I have known a lot of sex workers. Some enjoyed opulent lifestyles, others lived lives of squalor and degradation. For many, it was a job with some benefits and some drawbacks. Personally, I think that middle ground is where the interesting stories are to be found, but the range is open to exploration.

I am no more advocating for Last Exit than I am for Pretty Woman. I don't think sex work has to be presented exclusively as harmful. That's not how I have written it. I'm not here to plug my own work, but I have written a number of stories about sex workers and I have always worked that middle ground and sought to write entertaining stories that did not gloss over the down side. I work from the premise that the right amount of detail does not detract from the readers experience, but enhances it. I would think that even in "stroker" fantasy, the reader wants to identify with one character or another, and some grounding in reality makes the scenario more accessible to them.

The issues in Emily's story are easily reparable, and I don't see how a few changes would detract from the eroticism. Don't ask the client for his WhatsApp. Rewrite the second guy to make him a repeat customer. Simple things. Whatever anyone thinks of Emily's writing, no one can deny that she has a clever imagination. She could have pulled that off without losing any of the readers who were there for the titillation.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I’ve not heard back from either AMD or Om, I assume they have me on ignore. So - taking Om’s advice to do things out in the open. Here is what triggered me.

First of all, it wasn’t grammar and punctuation. I know I write idiosyncratically. At work, I write technical reports with long sentences and lots of sub clauses and brackets and emdashes. I lean against that in creative writing. I write on my ‘phone and Word has zero grammar checking options on 365. No not grammar or punctuation.

The first thing that triggered me was the implication that I don’t respect or empathize with sex workers. As I explain in my essay, I know one (albeit only slightly) and she was terribly kind to me at a bad point in my life (the worst actually). In general I am pro-sex in any consensual form. I think sex workers should be protected in the workplace like any worker. I think it should be just another job.

I also have my own very personal reasons for being hurt by this accusation. I overshare as it is here. So I’ll just leave it at that. If AMD and Om want to understand, I will consider maybe expanding in private.

The second thing that triggered me was Emily writes like a guy. Above I say we don’t know much about each other (I had no clue AMD and Om were sex worker activists), but I have had so much misery around my gender. And I’m totally aware I’m inviting more of it by referring to this issue here. I’ve had nasty PMs. I’ve had even worse stuff via the feedback form. Worst of all, I’ve had friends PMed saying the same shit about me. Most ignored it I’m happy to say.

And I had a well-known author wander the forums posting accusations about me for fun. They did it for months. And again I know I’m inviting the same shit by talking about it.

In my horror and dread, I leapt to the conclusion that AMD an Om were getting on the “Em is a dude” conspiracy theory bandwagon. That hurt like fuck. I hope - in retrospect - that it was as inadvertent as me posting a review somewhere other than SF.

But the combination of these two things had me seeing red.

The final thing was AMD’s PM saying that any positive feedback I have ever had about my writing was wrong and only because the person saying it had objectified me.

I challenge any writer to not be triggered by that.

But I was triggered. I was overwhelmed by anger. I felt I I was being attacked. Which had me flashing back to IRL attacks. It’s a bad spiral.

As I did IRL, I fought back in any way I could. It’s a survival thing. But, again, I was triggered. Which means I was genuinely upset about things that maybe were not intended as I took them to be.

I’m not seeking to blame here. I’m willing to believe that this has all been a horrible misunderstanding. I hope so.

But it’s impossible to understand my behavior without understanding what was going on in my rather dysfunctional head.

More than enough from me. And sorry for being so whiny and angst-ridden.

Emily

 

[jsmiam]

I did find it annoying that she’d claim ignorance over the existence of this forum, when she’s no newbie to forums and had demonstrably visited this forum enough to ask for a review in our thread. (Yes I had a feeling! Gasp! I’m also having one now, can you tell?) So, I answered “You did find our review thread in story feedback forum. Just saying.”

Now, tell me: How is this discriminating? How is this “loosely around sex work”? You know, if having any interactions with EM leads to vague accusations like this, then I’m even more resolute to not have any contact with her going forward. It is this tendency to drag the discussion from factual level to this very weird personal level that I very, very strongly oppose. In everybody.

So you say this…

Now that I’m suspicious of your motivations, I’ll quote your earlier post here in case you feel the urge to edit it later. I really, really think you should’ve had something stronger before coming up with this:

Then this….

To disprove my premise that there was a past between you two?

 

[Winter_Fare]

The final thing was AMD’s PM saying that any positive feedback I have ever had about my writing was wrong and only because the person saying it had objectified me.

I hope to god that isn't what was actually said. It is true that if you ask a friend who cares about sparing your feelings for their feedback, you'll get a substantially different answer than you would from an absolute stranger who advertises their feedback with the caveat:

I don't pull punches. I'll criticize things, and I will praise things; high risk, high reward

Though you obviously write non fiction in a more structured way, your voice is very casual when writing erotica. I personally enjoy reading everything you've shared, but there is absolutely room for technical improvement. It is not a personal attack to say your grammar needed a second pass. It is not a personal attack to say your MC was put in a dangerous situation that her acceptance of it jarred with her level of experience in her line of work.

And while we're on the subject of personal attacks, this forum, the whole of the AH, the fucking internet at large is not, will never be, has never been a safe space. It's an amusing place full of characters, noone here is being their honest to goodness self, for their own protection.

 

[Winter_Fare]

So you say this…

Then this….

To disprove my premise that there was a past between you two?

Sort yourself out mate and stop stirring. A quick search will show you Emily has posted on the feedback forum 9 times in the past year before asking for a review. She knew it was here, but chose the AH instead for added visibility and who cares! Her structured feedback post was well received and spawned others. No-one is hung up on it, it happened ages ago.

 

[jsmiam]

…Yes. The things I will be taking with me from this review is
- to pick the citations with more care (it wasn’t as if there weren’t more to choose from), because picking them from dialogue leads to this sort of observations instead of focusing on the point made…

Thank you for saying this, but the way. Actually acknowledging a misstep is the right thing to do, when one makes a misstep.

And in this case you moved on to a new topic, so unlike so many of your “maybe I was wrong” statements, there wasn’t a stack of follow-up paragraphs reversing into the conclusion that you weren’t actually wrong. Keep this up. This helps you improve your credibility.

Get awkward to do the same thing, and we’re talking true progress!

 

[jsmiam]

Sort yourself out mate and stop stirring. A quick search will show you Emily has posted on the feedback forum 9 times in the past year before asking for a review. She knew it was here, but chose the AH instead for added visibility and who cares! Her structured feedback post was well received and spawned others. No-one is hung up on it, it happened ages ago.

I’m not sure how you comprehended anything other than me saying omen and Emily had a spat before the review was published. Try re-reading.

 

[EmilyMiller]

It is not a personal attack to say your MC was put in a dangerous situation that her acceptance of it jarred with her level of experience in her line of work.

I explain my motivations in my essay. In brief:

1. That scene was about something in my personal life - I put myself in a bad situation and couldn’t get out of it
2. I moved it to a BDSM paradigm as a) I was dissociating and b) I’ve written a lot of BDSM
3. It was a bad choice as I ended up fetishizing that scene more that any of the others - it became just another Emily Miller BDSM scene

I didn’t write about my character being put it a bad place. I wrote about doing that to myself. Though - as I expand on in my essay - how is the reader meant to know that? Particularly at my rudimentary level of skill.

Afterthought: it being water off a duck’s back for Lauren / Mimi was two things:

1. From my POV it wasn’t a very heavy BDSM session - YMMV
2. It was wish fulfilment for me that the FMC got out unscathed - I didn’t IRL

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

Sort yourself out mate and stop stirring. A quick search will show you Emily has posted on the feedback forum 9 times in the past year before asking for a review. She knew it was here, but chose the AH instead for added visibility and who cares! Her structured feedback post was well received and spawned others. No-one is hung up on it, it happened ages ago.

I’m sorry. I spoke loosely before. Instead of zero, I should have said 9 / 8475 ~ 0.0018.

The place barely registered in my conciousness. Is that better?

Em