AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

[Omenainen]

I've read this story and I won't disagree with the technical issues mentioned. However, I believe that you approached your review with a prejudicial "by now you should have known better" perspective. While your advice was mostly sound and accurate, it was delivered with an attitude wrongly influenced by your stated perception of this writer's experience.

If we look at this writer's portfolio of works, there are nowhere near 50 stories. There are currently 59 submissions, many of which are series or multi-part stories. With that many submissions within 17 months since her first was posted, I see a creative ingenue striving to improve her abilities. Not the seasoned writer that you took her statement about "my 5oth story" to portray.

Hopefully, to every extent possible, you will consider the experience of a writer more carefully in future reviews. And I mean their true experience.

How do you propose we gauge author’s true experience? Emily has almost twice the amount of published… okay, submissions, that I do. And this was not her first published story, this was the 50th, by her own words.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Sight unseen, I would think that an author with 10 submissions (of significant length) has enough seasoning to handle a serious critique.

 

[StillStunned]

The one thing outside the story that we look for is the author’s “Lit experience”, evaluated by the amount of stories posted. If asked to review someone’s first story (or close to it), we are more lenient on the content and more likely to offer advice on categories and other site mechanics. While I do think all reviews should theoretically have the same approach, I think first-time authors (or close to it) deserve more encouragement than the story itself might warrant.

Well, that certainly puts your very kind review of my story into perspective... I think I mentioned somewhere that I felt like Zaphod Beeblebrox stepping out of the Total Perspective Vortex and wondering what all the fuss was about.

 

[Omenainen]

How do you propose we gauge author’s true experience? Emily has almost twice the amount of published… okay, submissions, then I do. And this was not her first published story, this was the 50th, by her own words.

…premature posting

So how do I gauge an author’s “true experience?” Read through everything they have? Sample stories here and there? Count a story per time unit value?

“Is this your first story (or so) or your 10th (or more)” is roughly what we look for.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Well, that certainly puts your very kind review of my story into perspective... I think I mentioned somewhere that I felt like Zaphod Beeblebrox stepping out of the Total Perspective Vortex and wondering what all the fuss was about.

Absolutely not. The Rivals was polished and solid. Deserved every ounce of praise on its own merits.

 

[AwkwardMD]

1. The main problem here is not this thread, but that there has been virtually nothing like it on Lit. It was pretty much the only place anyone could get a serious critique of their work. There are glimmers here and there that that may change. Authors who are not able or willing to receive the kind of analysis A&O offer ask for it anyways, because there is no where else to go. I believe many of them expect the sort of review they read in a magazine or on AV Club or similar sites. Those review are written for the benefit of the audience, however and are nor usually directed toward the creator.

A plethora of opinions is ideal. We all win when more people contribute, even if other contributors disagree with us. Especially if they disagree with us.

 

[alohadave]

A plethora of opinions is ideal. We all win when more people contribute, even if other contributors disagree with us. Especially if they disagree with us.

I've been knocking around the idea of starting a thread of my own. Having no real qualifications, other than a lifetime of reading, and a short amount of time as a writer, I am hesitant.

I think the value in this type of thing isn't necessarily only the review/critique, but from various people putting their own analysis on submissions.

 

[Omenainen]

Questioning the impartiality:
If I’m not mistaken, there was a prior disagreement of sorts between Omen vs Emily, right? Before the review, although perhaps after the request for a review. Also loosely around sex work.

I have no idea what this is about. Anyone with too much free time can go through my forum posting history and tell me if they find something.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I've been knocking around the idea of starting a thread of my own. Having no real qualifications, other than a lifetime of reading, and a short amount of time as a writer, I am hesitant.

I think the value in this type of thing isn't necessarily only the review/critique, but from various people putting their own analysis on submissions.

I think the deciding factor should probably be "Do you think that your contribution adds something?" and only you can answer that. Just bear in mind that it is a major time sink, pace yourself, and set some boundaries.

EDIT: Alternately, you're more than welcome to cut your teeth adding to the discussions here, writing them at whatever pace you feel comfortable with. You might get to stuff before we do, or after, but we're going to answer everything anyway so the requester will always get the thing they came looking for.

 

[SimonDoom]

3. Imagine I write a Gay Male story set in San Francisco in the 1980s in which I never mention AIDS and none of my characters practice safe sex. I suspect I would get lambasted for irresponsibility, and rightly so. I doubt anyone would say "It's okay, it's just a fantasy." The same standard ought to apply in other circumstances, including sex work. Potentially harmful fantasies should be presented as such.

This would be my response to such a story, as a critic. It would flunk the verisimilitude test. I have a VERY high tolerance for barely believable fantasy, and a considerable ability to set aside disbelief, but I have limits. So I might read this story, as you've described it, and roll my eyes and think, "Come on."

But my objection would be aesthetic, not moral. I wouldn't deem a story written in 2024 about 1980s San Francisco featuring an unrealistic portrayal of AIDS and safe sex practices by gay men in that time and that setting as unethical. I wouldn't be too concerned that a story set over 40 years ago might have adverse effects on how people might act in the real world today. That seems far-fetched to me. So if I were critiquing such a story, my critique would shy away from moral judgments but might emphasize the story's excessive unbelievability. I would leave it to the readers of my critique to make their own moral judgments about the possible consequences of the story's deviation from reality.

 

[Omenainen]

Does this outfit make me look fat?

You look very pretty in it!

 

[AwkwardMD]

This would be my response to such a story, as a critic. It would flunk the verisimilitude test. I have a VERY high tolerance for barely believable fantasy, and a considerable ability to set aside disbelief, but I have limits. So I might read this story, as you've described it, and roll my eyes and think, "Come on."

But my objection would be aesthetic, not moral. I wouldn't deem a story written in 2024 about 1980s San Francisco featuring an unrealistic portrayal of AIDS and safe sex practices by gay men in that time and that setting as unethical. I wouldn't be too concerned that a story set over 40 years ago might have adverse effects on how people might act in the real world today. That seems far-fetched to me. So if I were critiquing such a story, my critique would shy away from moral judgments but might emphasize the story's excessive unbelievability. I would leave it to the readers of my critique to make their own moral judgments about the possible consequences of the story's deviation from reality.

The nuance that always gets lost in the shuffle here is that aside from foot fetish stuff, I don't think we've ever reviewed a story that contained a kink or theme that I haven't written about myself. It's a common refrain to call us too prudish or too moral or whatever, but that hasn't stopped me from writing varied, murky, complex, and gritty stories.

I don't accidentally imply things I didn't mean to. I don't try to write one thing and end up with another. I wrote the Abu Ghraib of erotica (which, I have been informed, will not be on my tombstone despite my best efforts to ensure it). I write about cheating and drug use and misogyny and power dynamics and interracial and you name it. I do these things while following my own advice.

If I can do it, you can too. I am not that great.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

How do you propose we gauge author’s true experience? Emily has almost twice the amount of published… okay, submissions, then I do. And this was not her first published story, this was the 50th, by her own words.

It's always going to be a subjective determination, and not always easy.

Your technical assessment was fine. It was the visible attitude in your presentation that displayed your biases.

I point out the perceived biases in your review in response to some of the criticism you have both received about the review as something that you may want to pay more attention to, especially as you present your opinions on a story, and the writer.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Sight unseen, I would think that an author with 10 submissions (of significant length) has enough seasoning to handle a serious critique.

And I would think that a serious reviewer wouldn't make their biases (real or imagined) quite so obvious in their presentation of a critique.

You made it clear that your perception of her experience factored into your critique of her technical skills, and your experience researching and writing about sex workers factored into your critique of the story as a whole. Both are somewhat understandable, but they call into question how truly objective your reviews can be.

 

[AwkwardMD]

It's always going to be a subjective determination, and not always easy.

Your technical assessment was fine. It was the visible attitude in your presentation that displayed your biases.

I point out the perceived biases in your review in response to some of the criticism you have both received about the review as something that you may want to pay more attention to, especially as you present your opinions on a story, and the writer.

We welcome a plethora of opinions as they relate to the story. Read it and contribute, and then our voices are just one of many. It is within your power, Mr. Brandt, (yes you) to help.

I think it's telling that this particular review has gotten such widespread pushback, because it is not the most critical review we've ever given. There have been worse (much worse), but those authors did not have EM's very specific forum presence.

This is the one you want to take a stand on and tell me about my biases? This one?

EDIT: There is no such thing as an unbiased opinion or review. It's not possible for human beings, and we have never claimed otherwise. This is why we have always, constantly, begged for more contributors.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

We welcome a plethora of opinions as they relate to the story. Read it and contribute, and then our voices are just one of many. It is within your power, Mr. Brandt, (yes you) to help.

I think it's telling that this particular review has gotten such widespread pushback, because it is not the most critical review we've ever given. There have been worse (much worse), but those authors did not have EM's very specific forum presence.

This is the one you want to take a stand on and tell me about my biases? This one?

You are absolutely right. I was drawn into this fiasco by the posts of others and curiosity over what the hub-bub was all about.

I do not venture into this thread on my own, and I have no interest in reading any more of your reviews, but that is not a reflection on them, just my lack of interest.

I read the story and agreed with your technical assessment of it. In my opinion, your presentation could have been fairer and more encouraging to an aspiring writer. You've read some of my posts on the subject and should realize that I am all about improving the quality of the writing on this site. To the extent that your reviews contribute to that ideal, I support you.

 

[mirafrida]

(Sidenote: I blame the forum software for (somewhat and sometimes) retaining abandoned drafts. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. )

I legitimately laughed at this, because it's so true. But also, it strikes me as a metaphor for our times (though I need to think exactly what it says about us all)

 

[AG31]

3. Imagine I write a Gay Male story set in San Francisco in the 1980s in which I never mention AIDS and none of my characters practice safe sex. I suspect I would get lambasted for irresponsibility, and rightly so. I doubt anyone would say "It's okay, it's just a fantasy."

Depends on the story. I can imagine saying just that.

 

[MelissaBaby]

This would be my response to such a story, as a critic. It would flunk the verisimilitude test. I have a VERY high tolerance for barely believable fantasy, and a considerable ability to set aside disbelief, but I have limits. So I might read this story, as you've described it, and roll my eyes and think, "Come on."

But my objection would be aesthetic, not moral. I wouldn't deem a story written in 2024 about 1980s San Francisco featuring an unrealistic portrayal of AIDS and safe sex practices by gay men in that time and that setting as unethical. I wouldn't be too concerned that a story set over 40 years ago might have adverse effects on how people might act in the real world today. That seems far-fetched to me. So if I were critiquing such a story, my critique would shy away from moral judgments but might emphasize the story's excessive unbelievability. I would leave it to the readers of my critique to make their own moral judgments about the possible consequences of the story's deviation from reality.

Fair enough. Morals are a personal thing on which folks can differ with respect.

 

[mirafrida]

I've sometimes felt the urge to ask for a review here, and then blessedly held myself back (with the help of some thoughtful PMs from AwkwardMD that gave me an inkling of how bad an idea it would be).

In pondering why I've had that urge, there's definitely a yen for validation from people I respect. I would certainly struggle with 2500 words of relentless negativity. However, I'm also motivated by a genuine desire for helpful criticism and thoughtful discussion. I think a lot about what I write on Lit (however unlikely it may seem based on the output), and it would be fun to have those mental efforts augmented by intellectual engagement with others. On occasion I get it from reader comments, but of course one wants more.

For me at least, though, all of that is predicated on getting reviewed within the framework of the fantasies that speak to my twisted mind, and in relation to what I'm trying to do erotically. And to their credit, my sense has been that AwkwardMD and Omenainen have been up-front in communicating that this is not what they are providing.

It's like if there's a reviewer who hates superhero movies, and has given all Marvel movies for the last 20 years one star. That's their honest opinion. But if you're a maker of superhero movies, that reviewer is not going to provide helpful feedback. You want critique based on how well you executed within your genre and chosen frame of reference.

Because media reviewers are aiming at a wider audience, they usually try to adopt a broader mindset, at least to an extent. They know many readers do like superhero movies, and are looking for which one to see Friday night. I don't think that's what A&O are aiming for, however, and that's understandable. It's probably a lot to ask from any amateur reviewer. I would struggle to do that.

 

[Omenainen]

I've been knocking around the idea of starting a thread of my own. Having no real qualifications, other than a lifetime of reading, and a short amount of time as a writer, I am hesitant.

I think the value in this type of thing isn't necessarily only the review/critique, but from various people putting their own analysis on submissions.

One thing you could do is answer some of the people who start their own threads asking for feedback on their stories. There’s many posts every day and not very many people answering them. Then it’s not such a bar to think that you should give extensive reviews right off the bat. Then, when people find your comments useful, you could set up your own thread if you feel like it?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Because media reviewers are aiming at a wider audience, they usually try to adopt a broader mindset, at least to an extent. They know many readers do like superhero movies, and are looking for which one to see Friday night. I don't think that's what A&O are aiming for, however, and that's understandable. It's probably a lot to ask from any amateur reviewer. I would struggle to do that.

My understanding of this is that the stance of a media reviewer (as it is commonly understood/the Roger Eberts of the world) is to help an audience understand what to spend their dollars and time on. Don't watch this show, it's garbage. Watch that movie, it's brilliant.

It has value, and it has a place, but most of it isn't intended to get back to the creators for the specific purpose of helping the creators improve. By contrast, most readers aren't coming to the Lit forum for their reading recommendations. This is largely a creator space, an artist space, and so the point of us has always been the collective improvement of the art.

That is lofty, and we don't always hit that mark, but we try. Every time, we try.

 

[StillStunned]

However, I'm also motivated by a genuine desire for helpful criticism and thoughtful discussion. I think a lot about what I write on Lit (however unlikely it may seem based on the output), and it would be fun to have those mental efforts augmented by intellectual engagement with others. On occasion I get it from reader comments, but of course one wants more.

For me at least, though, all of that is predicated on getting reviewed within the framework of the fantasies that speak to my twisted mind, and in relation to what I'm trying to do erotically.

You could try what I've been doing over in the Hangout: choose a story (or an excerpt) and analyse it, explain what you were trying to achieve, why you choose a particular style or imagery. I always ask people to respect the story for what it is, just critique the aspects I've highlighted and discuss my thought processes.

A couple of other authors have posted their own threads too.

 

[MelissaBaby]

You could try what I've been doing over in the Hangout: choose a story (or an excerpt) and analyse it, explain what you were trying to achieve, why you choose a particular style or imagery. I always ask people to respect the story for what it is, just critique the aspects I've highlighted and discuss my thought processes.

A couple of other authors have posted their own threads too.

I think that's a great idea. I thought about doing a thread as you did, but most of my stories are fairly long, and I don't think it's fair to expect people to read 20 pages just to critique.

I'll be doing some shorter pieces this year, maybe I'll put a couple up for comments.

 

[AG31]

For me at least, though, all of that is predicated on getting reviewed within the framework of the fantasies that speak to my twisted mind, and in relation to what I'm trying to do erotically.

Yes.

And to their credit, my sense has been that AwkwardMD and Omenainen have been up-front in communicating that this is not what they are providing.

Yes.