closed Thread

[policywank]

There are valid concerns when Israel drops 300lb dumb bombs in densely populated areas.

I'll admit, I expected that Israel would go to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties and was disappointed with that effort to say the least.

Additionally, comparisons to world war 2 are truly shortsighted - technology in weaponry has had 80+ years to advance....why shouldn't we expect those who use it to use that tech to target more appropriately? In addition, diplomacy has also had 80+ years to evolve.

Yes, war sucks and kills people. That is oversimplified and truly holds no one accountable.

And to restate my positions - I favor the dismantling of Hamas and their complete surrender of leadership in Gaza. I also favor the resignation of all leadership in Israel due to their abdication of duties in protecting Israeli citizens.

Ok so now we are into the discussion of whether or not Israel is doing enough to mitigate civilian casualties in Gaza. That is a legitimate debate. I don't have the expertise to have a well developed view. But I would say that most people commenting on that aspect of the circumstance don't really have a well informed view either. On balance I think that they could be doing more to protect civilians, but a lot of people have unrealistic expectations in that regard.

In my view Israel has not only the right but the obligation (to its own citizens) to eliminate Hamas. As a member of the international community and members of the human race they also have the obligation to achieve this objective with as little collateral damage as possible. But what does that mean? It isn't defined by what other people find unpalatable or how effective the media is in presenting the story. Sadly pictures of the injured and killed tug on our heart strings but they don't tell us anything about whether or not there was a better alternative.

This is where the WW2 reference comes in. While circumstances are vastly different the pertinent details are actually very similar. An enemy with fundamentally evil intent that represents a threat that no sovereign nation can be expected to abide and which therefore must be eliminated. The fact that achieving that objective will be ugly doesn't make it any less imperative. By all means efforts to avoid civilian casualties should be optimized, but not at the expense of letting Hamas survive so that they can re-arm and carry on with their genocidal mission.

Yes technology is such that Israel should be better able to at avoid collateral damage than the Allies were in WW2. But just as in WW2 the mere fact that damage was extensive and horrific does not mean that there was a better alternative.

 

[policywank]

We have an early leader in the January "Let's rationalize teh genocide" contest!

You seem to be positing that if only Hamas would come out and fight mano-a-mano against the Israeli Genocide Force, this whole business could be wrapped up nice and quickly.

war isn't like that, sadly. Gazan fertilizer/sugar/C4 rockets are no match for the finest laser guided bombs gifted to the Israelis by indulgent big brother America. So we have guerilla war basically. Soooo unfair!

So let's address your concerns. Let's see....yes, the allies did attack strategic populated areas in WW2. (Churchill famously firebombed Dresden). By most accounts, the allies took care to concentrate their efforts against military units, not civilians populace.

Given the densely populated nature of Gaza due to geographic concerns, this isn't very easy in Gaza. Rather than make any effort to distinguish between combatant and civilian, the Israel Genocide Force seems to shrug their collective shoulders, kill anything that moves, and rely upon their crack propaganda team to make excuses for the more wretched excesses of their behavior. This is why we see footage of razed hospitals, day care center and refugee camps.

Perhaps my analogy that Israelis are no better than Nazis is a bit overblown....after some thought, they seem to be more akin to the Russian Red Army outside of Berlin in 1945. Content to reduce the enemy to rubble, block by block. After the fighting is done, I wonder if the Israeli Genocide Force will mass rape the surviving female populace before returning to a hero's welcome in Israel?

The biggest casualty in my opinion is that Israel has permanently forfeited the "perpetual victim" status it has taken such great care to cultivate since 1945 or so.

No I am saying that this whole situation wouldn't exist if Hamas did not have genocide as its mission. And we can't just ignore the fact that that is what Israel is contending with because we don't like the pictures we see on the news. You can indulge in all the juvenile name calling you like and I have no doubt that the IDF has done some terrible shit, but it is Hamas who openly and explicitly has committed themselves to a policy of genocide. And no sovereign nation can reasonably be expected to ease off on a group that has dedicated itself to the murder of all of its citizens.

Your understanding of WW2 is obviously very limited. The Allies destroyed many centres that were predominantly civilian and did so intentionally - Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima and Nagasaki come to mind - knowing full well that it was necessary to bring the devastation of war home to the people and sap their will to continue fighting. We did so intentionally and didn't even try to pretend that we were avoiding civilians.

After the war many people questioned whether or not all the bombing of civilians was necessary. The consensus seems to be that it was a necessary evil. Not everybody agrees on that. But what most grown-ups do agree on is that you can't just look at the damage and conclude that it was unnecessary unless you also consider the alternatives.

 

[Lazaran]

We have an early leader in the January "Let's rationalize teh genocide" contest!

You seem to be positing that if only Hamas would come out and fight mano-a-mano against the Israeli Genocide Force, this whole business could be wrapped up nice and quickly.

war isn't like that, sadly. Gazan fertilizer/sugar/C4 rockets are no match for the finest laser guided bombs gifted to the Israelis by indulgent big brother America. So we have guerilla war basically. Soooo unfair!

So let's address your concerns. Let's see....yes, the allies did attack strategic populated areas in WW2. (Churchill famously firebombed Dresden). By most accounts, the allies took care to concentrate their efforts against military units, not civilians populace.

Given the densely populated nature of Gaza due to geographic concerns, this isn't very easy in Gaza. Rather than make any effort to distinguish between combatant and civilian, the Israel Genocide Force seems to shrug their collective shoulders, kill anything that moves, and rely upon their crack propaganda team to make excuses for the more wretched excesses of their behavior. This is why we see footage of razed hospitals, day care center and refugee camps.

Perhaps my analogy that Israelis are no better than Nazis is a bit overblown....after some thought, they seem to be more akin to the Russian Red Army outside of Berlin in 1945. Content to reduce the enemy to rubble, block by block. After the fighting is done, I wonder if the Israeli Genocide Force will mass rape the surviving female populace before returning to a hero's welcome in Israel?

The biggest casualty in my opinion is that Israel has permanently forfeited the "perpetual victim" status it has taken such great care to cultivate since 1945 or so.

I have witnessed large numbers of Jewish people in America, Israel, etc, speaking out against Bibi’s prosecution of the war on Hamas, but, oddly enough, I have yet to witness large numbers of Palestinian people and their supporters speaking out against the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

In fact: The Palestinians and their supporters held celebrations / anti-Israel rallies IMMEDIATELY after the Hamas animal’s rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.





Also:

Those crude rockets and endless "rock throwing” (assaults with deadly weapons and mass vandalism) incidents are called “Gray Zone warfare”. They are NOT "innocent / harmless" protest / resistance.





Also:

The Hamas animals would love for Israel to be more surgical in their prosecution of the war.: Urban fighting prompted by calls for less bombardment has resulted in many Israeli casualties and has allowed the Hamas animals to claim some small victories while they simultaneously regrouped. Fortunately, Israel wised up and reverted to targeted bombing and shelling of the Hamas animals and their "civilian supporters”.



Bottom line: The Palestinians and their supporters had the opportunity in the wake of October 7th to condemn and rebel against Hamas, but instead, they IMMEDIATELY doubled down on the Hamas animals and their rape torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

Choices have consequences.

I suggest the Palestinians "civilians" choose MORE wisely, NOW, and in the future - if they can or even want to.



Israeli civilians CAN, and, very likely, WILL choose to supplant Bibi, etc, with less odious leaders, because they aren’t completely radicalized a -la the Palestinian "civilians".



Of course, the Hamas animals will claim the removal of Bibi, etc, as a victory, despite the carnage they brought down on Gaza, etc, with their October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

 

[LLCox]

I like how Gaza is totally flattened. 'You can go home now, guys."

 

[silky52]

Collective punishment involves intentionally punishing the whole population for the offences of a few people. That isn't what is happening. If Hamas would stop hiding behind civilians Israel would not need to turn Gaza to rubble. It sucks and it is unfair to innocents. But for Israel to not protect its own citizens because of Hamas's tactics is silly.

No doubt it has been said elsewhere in this chain but the reality is that all wars involve innocent civilians. Was the west inflicting collective punishment on Germany or Japan in WW2 when it was bombing civilian areas? No, at least not in my opinion. It was taking the necessary measures to protect its own citizens by defeating the enemy. The fact that necessitated the deaths of civilians sucks. But that necessity came about because of the acts of the aggressor.

As I noted above, think of it like family. If someone is threatening to kill my family then hiding behind their own children/innocents to try to deter me from attacking them to protect my family they are the ones creating the binary option of my innocents die or their innocents die. If they would just come out and face me the innocents could be left out of it. But as long as it is my innocents or yours, well I'm sorry but your innocents are going to die. That is no collective punishment. That is me protecting my own from a hideous enemy that is bent on my destruction and putting their loved ones in harm's way. I feel horrible for those people, but I can't be expected to sacrifice my own children/innocents.

Very well said!

 

[silky52]

There are valid concerns when Israel drops 300lb dumb bombs in densely populated areas.

I'll admit, I expected that Israel would go to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties and was disappointed with that effort to say the least.

Additionally, comparisons to world war 2 are truly shortsighted - technology in weaponry has had 80+ years to advance....why shouldn't we expect those who use it to use that tech to target more appropriately? In addition, diplomacy has also had 80+ years to evolve.

Yes, war sucks and kills people. That is oversimplified and truly holds no one accountable.

And to restate my positions - I favor the dismantling of Hamas and their complete surrender of leadership in Gaza. I also favor the resignation of all leadership in Israel due to their abdication of duties in protecting Israeli citizens.

Unfortunately, your presumptions do not take into account that Hamas-ISIS hides underground in thousands, and thousands of miles of tunnels! Plus the fact that 80% of those "innocent civilians," are not innocent and murdered, burned, raided, raped and took hostages back to Gaza with them on October 7th.. Evidence provided by the hostages that have thank G-d returned (we can only pray that their mental health will heal in time), tells us that they were taken by "innocent civilians," and lived with them in their flats/houses. Plus, the fact that their Muslim Arab mentality is not your mentality, culture or anything else. I doubt you would ever understand how they put their children in front of them to protect themselves! How they leave their 2 year old kids out in the street when they know that there are fighter planes coming over! How they believe that they will go to heaven and meet 67 virgins, (and probably rape them), and that Koran and their Imams have told them that it's okay to rape, burn and murder Israeli Jewish women (I did wonder about men too, and there is apparently evidence of that too).

I too favour the resignation of the PM and his band of idiots, so at least we agree on one thing!

 

[silky52]

I have witnessed large numbers of Jewish people in America, Israel, etc, speaking out against Bibi’s prosecution of the war on Hamas, but, oddly enough, I have yet to witness large numbers of Palestinian people and their supporters speaking out against the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

In fact: The Palestinians and their supporters held celebrations / anti-Israel rallies IMMEDIATELY after the Hamas animal’s rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.





Also:

Those crude rockets and endless "rock throwing” (assaults with deadly weapons and mass vandalism) incidents are called “Gray Zone warfare”. They are NOT "innocent / harmless" protest / resistance.





Also:

The Hamas animals would love for Israel to be more surgical in their prosecution of the war.: Urban fighting prompted by calls for less bombardment has resulted in many Israeli casualties and has allowed the Hamas animals to claim some small victories while they simultaneously regrouped. Fortunately, Israel wised up and reverted to targeted bombing and shelling of the Hamas animals and their "civilian supporters”.



Bottom line: The Palestinians and their supporters had the opportunity in the wake of October 7th to condemn and rebel against Hamas, but instead, they IMMEDIATELY doubled down on the Hamas animals and their rape torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

Choices have consequences.

I suggest the Palestinians "civilians" choose MORE wisely, NOW, and in the future - if they can or even want to.



Israeli civilians CAN, and, very likely, WILL choose to supplant Bibi, etc, with less odious leaders, because they aren’t completely radicalized a -la the Palestinian "civilians".



Of course, the Hamas animals will claim the removal of Bibi, etc, as a victory, despite the carnage they brought down on Gaza, etc, with their October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

Very nicely said, except for one thing. Animals really? You are saying Hamas-ISIS are animals. Animals unless you attack them are usually very nice, so you are dishonouring animals. Please use the term monster, animals don't deserve to be spoken of like that. As you put it so well, Hamas-ISIS are the ones who attacked Israel. Who want the destruction of Israel, and indeed all Jewish people all over the world. Imitating Hitler and the SS will not help them now though.

 

[ll74]

Unfortunately, your presumptions do not take into account that Hamas-ISIS hides underground in thousands, and thousands of miles of tunnels! Plus the fact that 80% of those "innocent civilians," are not innocent and murdered, burned, raided, raped and took hostages back to Gaza with them on October 7th.. Evidence provided by the hostages that have thank G-d returned (we can only pray that their mental health will heal in time), tells us that they were taken by "innocent civilians," and lived with them in their flats/houses. Plus, the fact that their Muslim Arab mentality is not your mentality, culture or anything else. I doubt you would ever understand how they put their children in front of them to protect themselves! How they leave their 2 year old kids out in the street when they know that there are fighter planes coming over! How they believe that they will go to heaven and meet 67 virgins, (and probably rape them), and that Koran and their Imams have told them that it's okay to rape, burn and murder Israeli Jewish women (I did wonder about men too, and there is apparently evidence of that too).

I too favour the resignation of the PM and his band of idiots, so at least we agree on one thing!

Incorrect. Regardless of what Hamas does, dropping dumb bombs on sense populations of civilians should not be acceptable. If you think otherwise, it's not because I'm missing a piece of this puzzle. It's because you and I have different standards of expectations in war. I'm not saying that Hamas is blameless here.....far from it. Their attack on October 7 was horrendous and unexcusable and they deserve to have the shit beat out of them.

Palestinians aren't the same as hamas

 

[silky52]

Incorrect. Regardless of what Hamas does, dropping dumb bombs on sense populations of civilians should not be acceptable. If you think otherwise, it's not because I'm missing a piece of this puzzle. It's because you and I have different standards of expectations in war. I'm not saying that Hamas is blameless here.....far from it. Their attack on October 7 was horrendous and unexcusable and they deserve to have the shit beat out of them.

Palestinians aren't the same as hamas

You have no idea how wring you are!!!

 

[Lazaran]

Very nicely said, except for one thing. Animals really? You are saying Hamas-ISIS are animals. Animals unless you attack them are usually very nice, so you are dishonouring animals. Please use the term monster, animals don't deserve to be spoken of like that. As you put it so well, Hamas-ISIS are the ones who attacked Israel. Who want the destruction of Israel, and indeed all Jewish people all over the world. Imitating Hitler and the SS will not help them now though.

Just using “animals” as a pejorative.

Calling them “monsters” suggests that they aren’t real, or that they are supernatural.

I should probably call them “The Hamas RABID animals”, but that almost seems redundant when I’m already using “animals” as a pejorative.

 

[policywank]

Incorrect. Regardless of what Hamas does, dropping dumb bombs on sense populations of civilians should not be acceptable. If you think otherwise, it's not because I'm missing a piece of this puzzle. It's because you and I have different standards of expectations in war. I'm not saying that Hamas is blameless here.....far from it. Their attack on October 7 was horrendous and unexcusable and they deserve to have the shit beat out of them.

Palestinians aren't the same as hamas

So what is the alternative? I mean that sincerely. I don't know if what Israel is doing is the best way or a necessary measure. But who the hell are we to tell them how to defend themselves if we have no viable alternative.

Hamas does not want peace. Containment didn't work. Sending in more ground troops may or may not mean fewer Palestinians die, but it certainly means more Israeli troops will die. And one way or another dismantling their terror infrastructure will mean bombing.

No nation is going to allow the slaughter of its innocents. How many more people including innocent civilians did America kill in its hunt for Bin Laden than Bin Laden killed on 9/11? Was there a quota? Did America say oh well we can kill up to 5 of theirs for every one of ours that died, but if it goes beyond that we will just pack up our shit and go home while Bin Laden makes plans to do it again?

 

[ll74]

So what is the alternative? I mean that sincerely. I don't know if what Israel is doing is the best way or a necessary measure. But who the hell are we to tell them how to defend themselves if we have no viable alternative.

Be more targeted and careful. Don't use high yield dumb bombs in densely populated areas.

Hamas does not want peace. Containment didn't work. Sending in more ground troops may or may not mean fewer Palestinians die, but it certainly means more Israeli troops will die. And one way or another dismantling their terror infrastructure will mean bombing.

I don't doubt bombing is a strategy.

No nation is going to allow the slaughter of its innocents. How many more people including innocent civilians did America kill in its hunt for Bin Laden than Bin Laden killed on 9/11? Was there a quota? Did America say oh well we can kill up to 5 of theirs for every one of ours that died, but if it goes beyond that we will just pack up our shit and go home while Bin Laden makes plans to do it again?

I'm supportive of their rights to retaliate.

 

[silky52]

Be more targeted and careful. Don't use high yield dumb bombs in densely populated areas.


I don't doubt bombing is a strategy.


I'm supportive of their rights to retaliate.

Very kind of you! Why don't you get on a plane and come see whether your proposals are viable?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

So what is the alternative? I mean that sincerely. I don't know if what Israel is doing is the best way or a necessary measure. But who the hell are we to tell them how to defend themselves if we have no viable alternative.

The issue isn't about today's conflict. The foundations of this failure goes back to 1916/17 and the Balfour Declaration. Then "Mandatory Palestine", followed by the United Nations Partition Plan. The history is there for all to read, so I'm not about to try giving a history lesson. But this foundational failure only leads to conflict, not resolution. There will never be peace unless the past is discarded.

The only way forward towards a lasting peace, is to throw away the past. The whole of the middle east needs to now sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution, based upon the right to exist for both the Israels and Palestinians. Both have the right to a homeland, and they (middle east region) can figure out the path forward. The West has fucked this up enough.

 

[ll74]

Very kind of you! Why don't you get on a plane and come see whether your proposals are viable?

They are viable. Not easy, but viable. No need to jump on a plane.

Those who say they aren't are full of shit.

 

[policywank]

Be more targeted and careful. Don't use high yield dumb bombs in densely populated areas.


I don't doubt bombing is a strategy.


I'm supportive of their rights to retaliate.

Ok, but now we are getting into tactics. I am certainly not qualified to comment on military tactics or the specific circumstances on the ground in Gaza. Very few of us are qualified to weigh in on those things.

And to those who have served in the military, respectfully no that does not make one a master tactician, much less inform one about the circumstances in Gaza.

What I do know is that no matter how targeted and careful the bombing is the media would still find ways to portray it in the worst light and Israel's enemies would still be making all of the accusations that they are making. The PR war strategy is to tug on the heart strings and make it all about death and destruction without regard for the absence of viable alternatives.

I can certainly see questioning Israel's tactics. People in Israel are doing that - because they are a democratic country (unlike their enemies) that permits free speech and dissent. But what is the basis upon which we who are either unqualified in matters of military tactics or unfamiliar with the circumstances on the ground in Gaza or both believe that with highly imperfect and incomplete information we are in a position to not only second guess but draw firm conclusions regarding the conduct of one of the most qualified and professional militaries in the world?

 

[ll74]

The issue isn't about today's conflict. The foundations of this failure goes back to 1916/17 and the Balfour Declaration. Then "Mandatory Palestine", followed by the United Nations Partition Plan. The history is there for all to read, so I'm not about to try giving a history lesson. But this foundational failure only leads to conflict, not resolution. There will never be peace unless the past is discarded.

The only way forward towards a lasting peace, is to throw away the past. The whole of the middle east needs to now sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution, based upon the right to exist for both the Israels and Palestinians. Both have the right to a homeland, and they (middle east region) can figure out the path forward. The West has fucked this up enough.

Yep.

I'm honestly sick of those who dismiss diplomacy because it's too hard. And for some reason, the entire world is heading that way.

 

[ll74]

Ok, but now we are getting into tactics. I am certainly not qualified to comment on military tactics or the specific circumstances on the ground in Gaza. Very few of us are qualified to weigh in on those things.

It's easy - if the actions result in mass civilian casualties, think of different actions.

And to those who have served in the military, respectfully no that does not make one a master tactician, much less inform one about the circumstances in Gaza.

There are always more ways to reach objectives.

What I do know is that no matter how targeted and careful the bombing is the media would still find ways to portray it in the worst light and Israel's enemies would still be making all of the accusations that they are making. The PR war strategy is to tug on the heart strings and make it all about death and destruction without regard for the absence of viable alternatives.

If Israel can demonstrate what they are doing to prevent civilians from dying (or minimizing them) then they can beat the media spin. But yes,.the level of civilian deaths due to erratic bombing has made the political winds shift. Austin said that it would.

I can certainly see questioning Israel's tactics. People in Israel are doing that - because they are a democratic country (unlike their enemies) that permits free speech and dissent. But what is the basis upon which we who are either unqualified in matters of military tactics or unfamiliar with the circumstances on the ground in Gaza or both believe that with highly imperfect and incomplete information we are in a position to not only second guess but draw firm conclusions regarding the conduct of one of the most qualified and professional militaries in the world?

The basis are a shitload of dead civilians.

 

[policywank]

The issue isn't about today's conflict. The foundations of this failure goes back to 1916/17 and the Balfour Declaration. Then "Mandatory Palestine", followed by the United Nations Partition Plan. The history is there for all to read, so I'm not about to try giving a history lesson. But this foundational failure only leads to conflict, not resolution. There will never be peace unless the past is discarded.

The only way forward towards a lasting peace, is to throw away the past. The whole of the middle east needs to now sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution, based upon the right to exist for both the Israels and Palestinians. Both have the right to a homeland, and they (middle east region) can figure out the path forward. The West has fucked this up enough.

I am quite familiar with the history. And you are quite right that the seeds of this conflict were sown a long time ago, by people who probably shouldn't have been fucking around with it at all. But a big part of the history is also the observable fact that the Palestinians have repeatedly rejected a two state solution and even when more moderate factions engage in that discussion groups like Hamas throw a wrench into the works.

Meanwhile no matter how the past unfolded we cannot expect the Jews of Israel to simply slit their own throats and that of their children and throw themselves into the sea.

The only viable solution in my mind is diplomacy. But I think that will continue to fail until the Palestinians can get their extremists under control. To be sure Israel has extremists as well who will actively resist a two state solution. But Israel is a democratic society that is equipped to hear those voices without letting them rule by terror. And Israel's allies are prepared to bring pressure to bear on them.

As long as Hamas can derail any peace initiative by blowing someone up diplomacy will fail. They have to be eliminated then both sides need to be forced to the bargaining table by their citizens and their allies.

 

[ll74]

I am quite familiar with the history. And you are quite right that the seeds of this conflict were sown a long time ago, by people who probably shouldn't have been fucking around with it at all. But a big part of the history is also the observable fact that the Palestinians have repeatedly rejected a two state solution and even when more moderate factions engage in that discussion groups like Hamas throw a wrench into the works.

Meanwhile no matter how the past unfolded we cannot expect the Jews of Israel to simply slit their on throats and throw themselves into the sea.

The only viable solution in my mind is diplomacy. But I think that will continue to fail until the Palestinians can get their extremists under control. To be sure Israel has extremists as well who will actively resist a two state solution. But Israel is a democratic society that is equipped to hear those voices without letting the rule by terror. And Israel's allies are prepared to bring pressure to bear on them.

As long as Hamas can derail any peace initiative by blowing someone up diplomacy will fail. They have to be eliminated then both sides need to be forced to the bargaining table by their citizens and their allies.

So you agree that better leadership is needed.

 

[policywank]

It's easy - if the actions result in mass civilian casualties, think of different actions.


There are always more ways to reach objectives.


If Israel can demonstrate what they are doing to prevent civilians from dying (or minimizing them) then they can beat the media spin. But yes,.the level of civilian deaths due to erratic bombing has made the political winds shift. Austin said that it would.


The basis are a shitload of dead civilians.

I am sorry but the basic premise that civilian casualties of any given magnitude automatically indicates that you are on the wrong track is flawed. Those casualties should certainly give everyone pause but they are not proof positive that the alternative is superior.

 

[silky52]

The issue isn't about today's conflict. The foundations of this failure goes back to 1916/17 and the Balfour Declaration. Then "Mandatory Palestine", followed by the United Nations Partition Plan. The history is there for all to read, so I'm not about to try giving a history lesson. But this foundational failure only leads to conflict, not resolution. There will never be peace unless the past is discarded.

The only way forward towards a lasting peace, is to throw away the past. The whole of the middle east needs to now sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution, based upon the right to exist for both the Israels and Palestinians. Both have the right to a homeland, and they (middle east region) can figure out the path forward. The West has fucked this up enough.

I wish!!

 

[silky52]

They are viable. Not easy, but viable. No need to jump on a plane.

Those who say they aren't are full of shit.

Said from far away of course they are!!

 

[policywank]

So you agree that better leadership is needed.

Absolutely, on all sides and among each side's respective allies. But unless we can surgically remove Hamas and everyone who thinks like them as well as the extremists in Israel that will be a long hard road and may involve violence.

The thing about casualties and violence is that it is a bit too easy to say war is stupid and it should be avoided. Of course it is stupid and should be avoided, but that only works if both sides feel that way. If one side is bound and determined to commit violence the other side has to deal with that and sometimes that requires force.

I know not everyone agrees with the example but there are useful parallels to WW2. By any reasonable measure Chamberlain attempted to avoid war through diplomacy. It was the right thing to do. But it didn't work because the other side didn't want peace, much like Hamas and various factions among the Palestinians don't want peace. For all of his best intentions Chamberlain would have led the world to a very bad place. Churchill by many measures was a belligerent asshole who caused a lot of death and destruction. But history has shown that was the least bad option, given the nature and the intent of the enemy.

 

[ll74]

I am sorry but the basic premise that civilian casualties of any given magnitude automatically indicates that you are on the wrong track is flawed. Those casualties should certainly give everyone pause but they are not proof positive that the alternative is superior.

You missed the word "mass".

Civilian casualties cannot be completely eliminated. I've never said otherwise.

The problem that Israel has, is that they've used more.bombs in a few months than the entire Afghan war. Most of them were high yield and dumb in densely populated areas. That is why they are losing support for their efforts and being questioned more on their objectives. They should be.