closed Thread

[silky52]

I have witnessed large numbers of Jewish people in America, Israel, etc, speaking out against Bibi’s prosecution of the war on Hamas, but, oddly enough, I have yet to witness large numbers of Palestinian people and their supporters speaking out against the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

In fact: The Palestinians and their supporters held celebrations / anti-Israel rallies IMMEDIATELY after the Hamas animal’s rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.





Also:

Those crude rockets and endless "rock throwing” (assaults with deadly weapons and mass vandalism) incidents are called “Gray Zone warfare”. They are NOT "innocent / harmless" protest / resistance.





Also:

The Hamas animals would love for Israel to be more surgical in their prosecution of the war.: Urban fighting prompted by calls for less bombardment has resulted in many Israeli casualties and has allowed the Hamas animals to claim some small victories while they simultaneously regrouped. Fortunately, Israel wised up and reverted to targeted bombing and shelling of the Hamas animals and their "civilian supporters”.



Bottom line: The Palestinians and their supporters had the opportunity in the wake of October 7th to condemn and rebel against Hamas, but instead, they IMMEDIATELY doubled down on the Hamas animals and their rape torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

Choices have consequences.

I suggest the Palestinians "civilians" choose MORE wisely, NOW, and in the future - if they can or even want to.



Israeli civilians CAN, and, very likely, WILL choose to supplant Bibi, etc, with less odious leaders, because they aren’t completely radicalized a -la the Palestinian "civilians".



Of course, the Hamas animals will claim the removal of Bibi, etc, as a victory, despite the carnage they brought down on Gaza, etc, with their October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

Very nicely said, except for one thing. Animals really? You are saying Hamas-ISIS are animals. Animals unless you attack them are usually very nice, so you are dishonouring animals. Please use the term monster, animals don't deserve to be spoken of like that. As you put it so well, Hamas-ISIS are the ones who attacked Israel. Who want the destruction of Israel, and indeed all Jewish people all over the world. Imitating Hitler and the SS will not help them now though.

 

[ll74]

Unfortunately, your presumptions do not take into account that Hamas-ISIS hides underground in thousands, and thousands of miles of tunnels! Plus the fact that 80% of those "innocent civilians," are not innocent and murdered, burned, raided, raped and took hostages back to Gaza with them on October 7th.. Evidence provided by the hostages that have thank G-d returned (we can only pray that their mental health will heal in time), tells us that they were taken by "innocent civilians," and lived with them in their flats/houses. Plus, the fact that their Muslim Arab mentality is not your mentality, culture or anything else. I doubt you would ever understand how they put their children in front of them to protect themselves! How they leave their 2 year old kids out in the street when they know that there are fighter planes coming over! How they believe that they will go to heaven and meet 67 virgins, (and probably rape them), and that Koran and their Imams have told them that it's okay to rape, burn and murder Israeli Jewish women (I did wonder about men too, and there is apparently evidence of that too).

I too favour the resignation of the PM and his band of idiots, so at least we agree on one thing!

Incorrect. Regardless of what Hamas does, dropping dumb bombs on sense populations of civilians should not be acceptable. If you think otherwise, it's not because I'm missing a piece of this puzzle. It's because you and I have different standards of expectations in war. I'm not saying that Hamas is blameless here.....far from it. Their attack on October 7 was horrendous and unexcusable and they deserve to have the shit beat out of them.

Palestinians aren't the same as hamas

 

[silky52]

Incorrect. Regardless of what Hamas does, dropping dumb bombs on sense populations of civilians should not be acceptable. If you think otherwise, it's not because I'm missing a piece of this puzzle. It's because you and I have different standards of expectations in war. I'm not saying that Hamas is blameless here.....far from it. Their attack on October 7 was horrendous and unexcusable and they deserve to have the shit beat out of them.

Palestinians aren't the same as hamas

You have no idea how wring you are!!!

 

[Lazaran]

Very nicely said, except for one thing. Animals really? You are saying Hamas-ISIS are animals. Animals unless you attack them are usually very nice, so you are dishonouring animals. Please use the term monster, animals don't deserve to be spoken of like that. As you put it so well, Hamas-ISIS are the ones who attacked Israel. Who want the destruction of Israel, and indeed all Jewish people all over the world. Imitating Hitler and the SS will not help them now though.

Just using “animals” as a pejorative.

Calling them “monsters” suggests that they aren’t real, or that they are supernatural.

I should probably call them “The Hamas RABID animals”, but that almost seems redundant when I’m already using “animals” as a pejorative.

 

[policywank]

Incorrect. Regardless of what Hamas does, dropping dumb bombs on sense populations of civilians should not be acceptable. If you think otherwise, it's not because I'm missing a piece of this puzzle. It's because you and I have different standards of expectations in war. I'm not saying that Hamas is blameless here.....far from it. Their attack on October 7 was horrendous and unexcusable and they deserve to have the shit beat out of them.

Palestinians aren't the same as hamas

So what is the alternative? I mean that sincerely. I don't know if what Israel is doing is the best way or a necessary measure. But who the hell are we to tell them how to defend themselves if we have no viable alternative.

Hamas does not want peace. Containment didn't work. Sending in more ground troops may or may not mean fewer Palestinians die, but it certainly means more Israeli troops will die. And one way or another dismantling their terror infrastructure will mean bombing.

No nation is going to allow the slaughter of its innocents. How many more people including innocent civilians did America kill in its hunt for Bin Laden than Bin Laden killed on 9/11? Was there a quota? Did America say oh well we can kill up to 5 of theirs for every one of ours that died, but if it goes beyond that we will just pack up our shit and go home while Bin Laden makes plans to do it again?

 

[ll74]

So what is the alternative? I mean that sincerely. I don't know if what Israel is doing is the best way or a necessary measure. But who the hell are we to tell them how to defend themselves if we have no viable alternative.

Be more targeted and careful. Don't use high yield dumb bombs in densely populated areas.

Hamas does not want peace. Containment didn't work. Sending in more ground troops may or may not mean fewer Palestinians die, but it certainly means more Israeli troops will die. And one way or another dismantling their terror infrastructure will mean bombing.

I don't doubt bombing is a strategy.

No nation is going to allow the slaughter of its innocents. How many more people including innocent civilians did America kill in its hunt for Bin Laden than Bin Laden killed on 9/11? Was there a quota? Did America say oh well we can kill up to 5 of theirs for every one of ours that died, but if it goes beyond that we will just pack up our shit and go home while Bin Laden makes plans to do it again?

I'm supportive of their rights to retaliate.

 

[silky52]

Be more targeted and careful. Don't use high yield dumb bombs in densely populated areas.


I don't doubt bombing is a strategy.


I'm supportive of their rights to retaliate.

Very kind of you! Why don't you get on a plane and come see whether your proposals are viable?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

So what is the alternative? I mean that sincerely. I don't know if what Israel is doing is the best way or a necessary measure. But who the hell are we to tell them how to defend themselves if we have no viable alternative.

The issue isn't about today's conflict. The foundations of this failure goes back to 1916/17 and the Balfour Declaration. Then "Mandatory Palestine", followed by the United Nations Partition Plan. The history is there for all to read, so I'm not about to try giving a history lesson. But this foundational failure only leads to conflict, not resolution. There will never be peace unless the past is discarded.

The only way forward towards a lasting peace, is to throw away the past. The whole of the middle east needs to now sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution, based upon the right to exist for both the Israels and Palestinians. Both have the right to a homeland, and they (middle east region) can figure out the path forward. The West has fucked this up enough.

 

[ll74]

Very kind of you! Why don't you get on a plane and come see whether your proposals are viable?

They are viable. Not easy, but viable. No need to jump on a plane.

Those who say they aren't are full of shit.

 

[policywank]

Be more targeted and careful. Don't use high yield dumb bombs in densely populated areas.


I don't doubt bombing is a strategy.


I'm supportive of their rights to retaliate.

Ok, but now we are getting into tactics. I am certainly not qualified to comment on military tactics or the specific circumstances on the ground in Gaza. Very few of us are qualified to weigh in on those things.

And to those who have served in the military, respectfully no that does not make one a master tactician, much less inform one about the circumstances in Gaza.

What I do know is that no matter how targeted and careful the bombing is the media would still find ways to portray it in the worst light and Israel's enemies would still be making all of the accusations that they are making. The PR war strategy is to tug on the heart strings and make it all about death and destruction without regard for the absence of viable alternatives.

I can certainly see questioning Israel's tactics. People in Israel are doing that - because they are a democratic country (unlike their enemies) that permits free speech and dissent. But what is the basis upon which we who are either unqualified in matters of military tactics or unfamiliar with the circumstances on the ground in Gaza or both believe that with highly imperfect and incomplete information we are in a position to not only second guess but draw firm conclusions regarding the conduct of one of the most qualified and professional militaries in the world?

 

[ll74]

The issue isn't about today's conflict. The foundations of this failure goes back to 1916/17 and the Balfour Declaration. Then "Mandatory Palestine", followed by the United Nations Partition Plan. The history is there for all to read, so I'm not about to try giving a history lesson. But this foundational failure only leads to conflict, not resolution. There will never be peace unless the past is discarded.

The only way forward towards a lasting peace, is to throw away the past. The whole of the middle east needs to now sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution, based upon the right to exist for both the Israels and Palestinians. Both have the right to a homeland, and they (middle east region) can figure out the path forward. The West has fucked this up enough.

Yep.

I'm honestly sick of those who dismiss diplomacy because it's too hard. And for some reason, the entire world is heading that way.

 

[ll74]

Ok, but now we are getting into tactics. I am certainly not qualified to comment on military tactics or the specific circumstances on the ground in Gaza. Very few of us are qualified to weigh in on those things.

It's easy - if the actions result in mass civilian casualties, think of different actions.

And to those who have served in the military, respectfully no that does not make one a master tactician, much less inform one about the circumstances in Gaza.

There are always more ways to reach objectives.

What I do know is that no matter how targeted and careful the bombing is the media would still find ways to portray it in the worst light and Israel's enemies would still be making all of the accusations that they are making. The PR war strategy is to tug on the heart strings and make it all about death and destruction without regard for the absence of viable alternatives.

If Israel can demonstrate what they are doing to prevent civilians from dying (or minimizing them) then they can beat the media spin. But yes,.the level of civilian deaths due to erratic bombing has made the political winds shift. Austin said that it would.

I can certainly see questioning Israel's tactics. People in Israel are doing that - because they are a democratic country (unlike their enemies) that permits free speech and dissent. But what is the basis upon which we who are either unqualified in matters of military tactics or unfamiliar with the circumstances on the ground in Gaza or both believe that with highly imperfect and incomplete information we are in a position to not only second guess but draw firm conclusions regarding the conduct of one of the most qualified and professional militaries in the world?

The basis are a shitload of dead civilians.

 

[policywank]

The issue isn't about today's conflict. The foundations of this failure goes back to 1916/17 and the Balfour Declaration. Then "Mandatory Palestine", followed by the United Nations Partition Plan. The history is there for all to read, so I'm not about to try giving a history lesson. But this foundational failure only leads to conflict, not resolution. There will never be peace unless the past is discarded.

The only way forward towards a lasting peace, is to throw away the past. The whole of the middle east needs to now sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution, based upon the right to exist for both the Israels and Palestinians. Both have the right to a homeland, and they (middle east region) can figure out the path forward. The West has fucked this up enough.

I am quite familiar with the history. And you are quite right that the seeds of this conflict were sown a long time ago, by people who probably shouldn't have been fucking around with it at all. But a big part of the history is also the observable fact that the Palestinians have repeatedly rejected a two state solution and even when more moderate factions engage in that discussion groups like Hamas throw a wrench into the works.

Meanwhile no matter how the past unfolded we cannot expect the Jews of Israel to simply slit their own throats and that of their children and throw themselves into the sea.

The only viable solution in my mind is diplomacy. But I think that will continue to fail until the Palestinians can get their extremists under control. To be sure Israel has extremists as well who will actively resist a two state solution. But Israel is a democratic society that is equipped to hear those voices without letting them rule by terror. And Israel's allies are prepared to bring pressure to bear on them.

As long as Hamas can derail any peace initiative by blowing someone up diplomacy will fail. They have to be eliminated then both sides need to be forced to the bargaining table by their citizens and their allies.

 

[ll74]

I am quite familiar with the history. And you are quite right that the seeds of this conflict were sown a long time ago, by people who probably shouldn't have been fucking around with it at all. But a big part of the history is also the observable fact that the Palestinians have repeatedly rejected a two state solution and even when more moderate factions engage in that discussion groups like Hamas throw a wrench into the works.

Meanwhile no matter how the past unfolded we cannot expect the Jews of Israel to simply slit their on throats and throw themselves into the sea.

The only viable solution in my mind is diplomacy. But I think that will continue to fail until the Palestinians can get their extremists under control. To be sure Israel has extremists as well who will actively resist a two state solution. But Israel is a democratic society that is equipped to hear those voices without letting the rule by terror. And Israel's allies are prepared to bring pressure to bear on them.

As long as Hamas can derail any peace initiative by blowing someone up diplomacy will fail. They have to be eliminated then both sides need to be forced to the bargaining table by their citizens and their allies.

So you agree that better leadership is needed.

 

[policywank]

It's easy - if the actions result in mass civilian casualties, think of different actions.


There are always more ways to reach objectives.


If Israel can demonstrate what they are doing to prevent civilians from dying (or minimizing them) then they can beat the media spin. But yes,.the level of civilian deaths due to erratic bombing has made the political winds shift. Austin said that it would.


The basis are a shitload of dead civilians.

I am sorry but the basic premise that civilian casualties of any given magnitude automatically indicates that you are on the wrong track is flawed. Those casualties should certainly give everyone pause but they are not proof positive that the alternative is superior.

 

[silky52]

The issue isn't about today's conflict. The foundations of this failure goes back to 1916/17 and the Balfour Declaration. Then "Mandatory Palestine", followed by the United Nations Partition Plan. The history is there for all to read, so I'm not about to try giving a history lesson. But this foundational failure only leads to conflict, not resolution. There will never be peace unless the past is discarded.

The only way forward towards a lasting peace, is to throw away the past. The whole of the middle east needs to now sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution, based upon the right to exist for both the Israels and Palestinians. Both have the right to a homeland, and they (middle east region) can figure out the path forward. The West has fucked this up enough.

I wish!!

 

[silky52]

They are viable. Not easy, but viable. No need to jump on a plane.

Those who say they aren't are full of shit.

Said from far away of course they are!!

 

[policywank]

So you agree that better leadership is needed.

Absolutely, on all sides and among each side's respective allies. But unless we can surgically remove Hamas and everyone who thinks like them as well as the extremists in Israel that will be a long hard road and may involve violence.

The thing about casualties and violence is that it is a bit too easy to say war is stupid and it should be avoided. Of course it is stupid and should be avoided, but that only works if both sides feel that way. If one side is bound and determined to commit violence the other side has to deal with that and sometimes that requires force.

I know not everyone agrees with the example but there are useful parallels to WW2. By any reasonable measure Chamberlain attempted to avoid war through diplomacy. It was the right thing to do. But it didn't work because the other side didn't want peace, much like Hamas and various factions among the Palestinians don't want peace. For all of his best intentions Chamberlain would have led the world to a very bad place. Churchill by many measures was a belligerent asshole who caused a lot of death and destruction. But history has shown that was the least bad option, given the nature and the intent of the enemy.

 

[ll74]

I am sorry but the basic premise that civilian casualties of any given magnitude automatically indicates that you are on the wrong track is flawed. Those casualties should certainly give everyone pause but they are not proof positive that the alternative is superior.

You missed the word "mass".

Civilian casualties cannot be completely eliminated. I've never said otherwise.

The problem that Israel has, is that they've used more.bombs in a few months than the entire Afghan war. Most of them were high yield and dumb in densely populated areas. That is why they are losing support for their efforts and being questioned more on their objectives. They should be.

 

[ll74]

Said from far away of course they are!!

Said from close up they are as well.

 

[silky52]

I am sorry but the basic premise that civilian casualties of any given magnitude automatically indicates that you are on the wrong track is flawed. Those casualties should certainly give everyone pause but they are not proof positive that the alternative is superior.

Plus the fact that 75% is por more are not innocent civilians or otherwise. You guys aren't old enough to remember Vietnam, a similar situation and look how long that took the Americans to fathom!!

 

[ll74]

Absolutely, on all sides and among each side's respective allies. But unless we can surgically remove Hamas and everyone who thinks like them as well as the extremists in Israel that will be a long hard road and may involve violence.

Yes....and more fortitude than ever before.

The thing about casualties and violence is that it is a bit to easy to say war is stupid and it should be avoided. Of course it is stupid and should be avoided, but that only works if both sides feel that way. If one side is bound and determained to commit violence the other side has to deal with that and sometimes that requires force.

Which is why the effort for new leadership is important and needs to be called for loudly. Not just on one side.

 

[silky52]

It's easy - if the actions result in mass civilian casualties, think of different actions.


There are always more ways to reach objectives.


If Israel can demonstrate what they are doing to prevent civilians from dying (or minimizing them) then they can beat the media spin. But yes,.the level of civilian deaths due to erratic bombing has made the political winds shift. Austin said that it would.


The basis are a shitload of dead civilians.

Again, your 'shitload of dead civilians,' are Hamas-ISIS terrorists. Israel does not commit genocide. HI do, has done and has said they will do again. Why isn't the world listening?

 

[policywank]

You missed the word "mass".

Civilian casualties cannot be completely eliminated. I've never said otherwise.

The problem that Israel has, is that they've used more.bombs in a few months than the entire Afghan war. Most of them were high yield and dumb in densely populated areas. That is why they are losing support for their efforts and being questioned more on their objectives. They should be.

Then you are just inserting your own judgment as to how many casualties is too many and how the war should be conducted. Respectfully, what are your qualifications to conclude on either matter? Unless you served as a senior officer in the military and have intimate up to the minute knowledge from the IDF you are just a pundit like the rest of us.

 

[policywank]

Yes....and more fortitude than ever before.


Which is why the effort for new leadership is important and needs to be called for loudly. Not just on one side.

Israel has the mechanisms to replace their leadership as they see fit and may very well do so in their next election. The Palestinians have no such mechanism. And the only party (Iran) who might be able to compel a change has no interest in doing so. Until that changes Israel is dealing with a terrorist group. It sucks that this terrorist group hides behind innocent civilians, but that is what Israel must deal with and keep their citizens safe in the process. Like I said before - it sucks but if the enemy makes it a choice between my family and their family the decision is easy.