How EV sales are losing momentum with US buyers

[deltablues65]

Trains are already diesel electric - they are electrically driven, with diesel being used for generating electricity for the electric drive motors.

Most designs also use batteries for surge capacity and some regenerative braking.

I agree.....but I was reading the specs of the amount of diesel Union Pacific consumes and it is substancial.......I need to find the specs again

 

[LLCox]

Not working out in China.

https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/ev-graveyard-reckoning-hardly-anyone-wants-buy-used-one

So when I have digital currency the Government can freeze my account if they don't like what I say or do and tell me what I can and can not buy. Elon musk can already shut off your electric car if you don't make the payments. It's just a little tweak for the Government to have the same power over how often you drive and where.

Let that happen and you deserve to be a China man.

 

[deltablues65]

Are you trying to claim that modern trains do not use electric drive?

Lol.....I just remember a local coal mine that put in fully electric rail transport back to a CN mainline......but there was a lot of maintenance required, especially through tunnels, and once the electric units surpassed the service life, its all been changed back to diesel power again

 

[AlexBailey]

I agree.....but I was reading the specs of the amount of diesel Union Pacific consumes and it is substancial.......I need to find the specs again

And…..?

Electricity is used because it is better for motive power than combustion. Period.

Electric lines are used for many railways, and that electricity can be generated from any source. Diesel is used because we have invested in that infrastructure, not because it’s the most efficient.

 

[AlexBailey]

Lol.....I just remember a local coal mine that put in fully electric rail transport back to a CN mainline......but there was a lot of maintenance required, especially through tunnels, and once the electric units surpassed the service life, its all been changed back to diesel power again

Interesting. I’d be curious to see the tech they used and the pressure used to influence that decision.

In mining, combustion needs : exhaust ventilation, combustion air, cooling ventilation - constant filter cleaning (much bigger deal than you’d probably guess). Electric provides much better torque as well.

 

[deltablues65]

And…..?

Electricity is used because it is better for motive power than combustion. Period.

Electric lines are used for many railways, and that electricity can be generated from any source. Diesel is used because we have invested in that infrastructure, not because it’s the most efficient.

20 million gallons of diesel per month, and those were 2010 specs.....info is direct from a magazine article on Union Pacific's main yard

 

[Leglover1234]

When it gets too cold, the chemical reactions that generate electricity can slow down, reducing the battery's output. On average, HERE estimates that vehicle range drops 20% when temperatures start hitting the 32 degrees Fahrenheit mark. If it drops another 10 degrees Fahrenheit that number slumps to 40%.

Estimates vary, but according to a study from AAA, EVs can lose about 40% of their range when the temperature drops from 75 degrees to 20 degrees Fahrenheit. The range dip is attributed to a couple of things, such as natural battery capacity loss in colder temperatures as well as the increased energy needed for heating the cabin. Using other climate features, such as the heated seats and heated steering wheel, also requires energy and cuts into a car’s range.

For example, an EV with a rated range of 250 miles would have only 150 miles of range when it’s 20 degrees outside. And that’s for a new EV — used models will see less range since all rechargeable batteries naturally lose capacity with use and time. According to Geotab, a Las Vegas-based company that tracks battery health in many EVs, average battery degradation is around 2.3% per year.

I am pretty sure, but could be wrong that NASA uses technologically advanced batteries for their rovers and satellites oh, and I forgot they all have solar panels

 

[deltablues65]

And…..?

Electricity is used because it is better for motive power than combustion. Period.

Electric lines are used for many railways, and that electricity can be generated from any source. Diesel is used because we have invested in that infrastructure, not because it’s the most efficient.

285,000 gallons of lube(engine oil)....I assume that is per month too, and that is one company

 

[deltablues65]

Interesting. I’d be curious to see the tech they used and the pressure used to influence that decision.

In mining, combustion needs : exhaust ventilation, combustion air, cooling ventilation - constant filter cleaning (much bigger deal than you’d probably guess). Electric provides much better torque as well.

If you look up the Tumbler Ridge electric rail system......there is likely information out there

 

[AlexBailey]

20 million gallons of diesel per month, and those were 2010 specs.....info is direct from a magazine article on Union Pacific's main yard

I don’t doubt that, and I don’t doubt the pressure coming from the petroleum industry to keep it that way.

The US is the largest producer of petroleum and the largest consumer of any country, do you think the industry doesn’t try to influence public policy?

Again, diesel is the energy source, not the drive power. It can be changed.

EVs are so much more energy efficient than petroleum that with the economy of scale you can use a diesel generator to charge an EV more efficiently than driving with direct gas or diesel power.

 

[AlexBailey]

When it gets too cold, the chemical reactions that generate electricity can slow down, reducing the battery's output. On average, HERE estimates that vehicle range drops 20% when temperatures start hitting the 32 degrees Fahrenheit mark. If it drops another 10 degrees Fahrenheit that number slumps to 40%.

Estimates vary, but according to a study from AAA, EVs can lose about 40% of their range when the temperature drops from 75 degrees to 20 degrees Fahrenheit. The range dip is attributed to a couple of things, such as natural battery capacity loss in colder temperatures as well as the increased energy needed for heating the cabin. Using other climate features, such as the heated seats and heated steering wheel, also requires energy and cuts into a car’s range.

For example, an EV with a rated range of 250 miles would have only 150 miles of range when it’s 20 degrees outside. And that’s for a new EV — used models will see less range since all rechargeable batteries naturally lose capacity with use and time. According to Geotab, a Las Vegas-based company that tracks battery health in many EVs, average battery degradation is around 2.3% per year.

I am pretty sure, but could be wrong that NASA uses technologically advanced batteries for their rovers and satellites oh, and I forgot they all have solar panels

You’re correct in how the battery capacity is reduced in cold, but losing 20% or ever 50% of a 300 mile range is still more than adequate for most driving.


If you live in a cold climate you’ve probably used a block heater, no?

A block heater for a petroleum vehicle is a heater in the engine coolant system that can be plugged into house power and will keep your engine warm and ready for when you go to start it in cold conditions.

These block heaters typically consume as much as one kilowatt hour for every hour they are on - enough to drive 3 miles in an EV. I have never seen a report where anyone include this loss of energy when comparing gas to EV. Convenient dishonesty? Using your block heater for ten hours can use 30 miles equivalent of electricity.

Modern batteries can self-warm by using just enough energy to keep them in their best state, or be plugged in to house power to keep the battery full.

That’s probably a wash when honestly compared to internal combustion.

In satellites a lot of solar collected energy goes towards keeping lithium batteries warm, and new nickle hydrogen tech that has much better temperature range performance is quickly coming down in price. When it hits parity lithium will not be in such demand.

 

[ll74]

Toyota claims its solid-state batteries (or SSBs) will allow its EVs to get up to 745 miles per charge. This is a longer range than most ICE vehicles. Perhaps more impressive than the long driving range is the short charging time. Toyota’s solid-state battery can charge in 10 minutes or less.

https://www.topspeed.com/toyotas-74... claims its solid-state,in 10 minutes or less.

 

[Leglover1234]

They use block heaters for diesel engines w
where I come from. I’ve never heard of a block here for a gas engines. If you look at my avatar I actually drive an EV

 

[AlexBailey]

Toyota claims its solid-state batteries (or SSBs) will allow its EVs to get up to 745 miles per charge. This is a longer range than most ICE vehicles. Perhaps more impressive than the long driving range is the short charging time. Toyota’s solid-state battery can charge in 10 minutes or less.

https://www.topspeed.com/toyotas-745-mile-solid-state-battery-breakthrough-explained/#:~:text=Toyota claims its solid-state,in 10 minutes or less.

That 10 min or less may be a possibility but it is misleading in most cases. Watch the petrol talking heads beat up on that one.

If you have a car battery than can do 745 miles, it’s probably ~ 250 kilowatt hours.

How exactly can the typical car receive 250 kWH of energy in 10 minutes?

Maybe some special inductive platform you park on top of?

 

[AlexBailey]

They use block heaters for diesel engines w
where I come from. I’ve never heard of a block here for a gas engines. If you look at my avatar I actually drive an EV

Hmmm, I’d guess you aren’t in an extreme climate then. No? EV should work fine where you are, maybe a little less range…

 

[ll74]

That 10 min or less may be a possibility but it is misleading in most cases. Watch the petrol talking heads beat up on that one.

If you have a car battery than can do 745 miles, it’s probably ~ 250 kilowatt hours.

How exactly can the typical car receive 250 kWH of energy in 10 minutes?

Maybe some special inductive platform you park on top of?

The tech is new and unproven. Certainly the claims could be exaggerated. But compared to current tech, anywhere close to suggested would be a huge leap and likely will bring tons more people into the market.

 

[Leglover1234]

Hmmm, I’d guess you aren’t in an extreme climate then. No? EV should work fine where you are, maybe a little less range…

I live in the north east of the United States. Maybe Canada or the northern states usethose block heaters but I have never heard of that before.

 

[AlexBailey]

The tech is new and unproven. Certainly the claims could be exaggerated. But compared to current tech, anywhere close to suggested would be a huge leap and likely will bring tons more people into the market.

Oh definitely, the tech is still rapidly developing.

People love their gas, they want to think the evil with lord Biden is taking something precious away, but isn’t it the role of government to promote the general welfare?

Before 1965 there were no emissions controls on vehicles. Without government mandated regulations there was no incentive for car manufacturers to reduce emissions. Society was killing itself with smog and lead. - freedom!

The US is the largest consumer of petroleum in the world. What we do matters even if no other country is yet able.

 

[AlexBailey]

I live in the north east of the United States. Maybe Canada or the northern states usethose block heaters but I have never heard of that before.

I lived I mountain areas where they were common.

 

[Leglover1234]

I can’t drive anymore and I won’t be alive in 2035 so it doesn’t really matter to me when the federal vehicle deadline is supposed to be in place. The question I have is where will they be getting all the electricity for thousands of thousands of vehicles? Nuclear power plants? Those are the cleanest, correct?

 

[Leglover1234]

I lived I mountain areas where they were common.

It gets to single digits here where I live

 

[ll74]

Oh definitely, the tech is still rapidly developing.

People love their gas, they want to think the evil with lord Biden is taking something precious away, but isn’t it the role of government to promote the general welfare?

Before 1965 there were no emissions controls on vehicles. Without government mandated regulations there was no incentive for car manufacturers to reduce emissions. Society was killing itself with smog and lead. - freedom!

The US is the largest consumer of petroleum in the world. What we do matters even if no other country is yet able.

Agreed. Emissions of gas vehicles have been reduced to amazing levels.

EPA report: US fuel economy marks a new record high; CO2 emissions reach record lows, and all large manufacturers meet greenhouse gas standards​

 

[AlexBailey]

I can’t drive anymore and I won’t be alive in 2035 so it doesn’t really matter to me when the federal vehicle deadline is supposed to be in place. The question I have is where will they be getting all the electricity for thousands of thousands of vehicles? Nuclear power plants? Those are the cleanest, correct?

In the US we’re already consuming more energy than any other country.

Even if we continue to produce electricity with fossil fuels we will come out ahead on efficiency and lower emissions - especially in urban areas- by using the best and cleanest electric generators.

Right now the numbers show that in many places you come out ahead by producing your own electricity from solar rather than buying utility power - it depends on your local rates. Solar costs +/- $0.15 / kilowatt hour-

….so at 3 miles per kWh = $0.05 / mile for EV fuel. If you live somewhere electricity is cheaper than $0.15/kWh you’re doing ever better cost wise.

A car that gets 30 mpg cost $0.10 / mile at $3.00 / gallon.

 

[HisArpy]

Yes, thankfully gasoline prices in most of the US are not as crippling to low and middle income families they are in other parts of world. The poor are sure getting hit hard in parts of California though. Just drove past a gas station on Ventura Blvd in Woodland Hills where regular costs $5.59 a gallon.

Better be careful with this kind of statement, ninnygirl might chase after you on her bicycle shaking her finger and yelling shame on you for driving a car and needing a parking space and a road for it.

 

[HisArpy]

In the US we’re already consuming more energy than any other country.

Even if we continue to produce electricity with fossil fuels we will come out ahead on efficiency and lower emissions - especially in urban areas- by using the best and cleanest electric generators.

Right now the numbers show that in many places you come out ahead by producing your own electricity from solar rather than buying utility power - it depends on your local rates. Solar costs +/- $0.15 / kilowatt hour-

….so at 3 miles per kWh = $0.05 / mile for EV fuel. If you live somewhere electricity is cheaper than $0.15/kWh you’re doing ever better cost wise.

A car that gets 30 mpg cost $0.10 / mile at $3.00 / gallon.

Saying we're going to save energy by going all electric from centralized production is just like the daylight savings con where you take an hour from the morning and give it to the evening. Or, as some native American is credited with saying; it's like cutting off 1/3 from one end of a blanket and sewing it back onto the other end and saying you've got more blanket.

Energy costs money to produce, be it centralized or decentralized. It also produces pollution in the same amount when you factor in everything from bigger and more generators (which require pollution to mine and manufacture) to upgrading transmission lines (again, more pollution to manufacture) to charging stations (even more pollution).