Israel/Hamas PB Tribal Fight

[ChloeTzang]

https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt...a-opening-rafah-crossing-0600-gmt-2023-10-16/

People wonder "what" Israeli intentions are...simple...punishment of a race of people they despise for the actions of a few that have nothing to do with those they despise.

No, not a race. That would be all Arabs. A select group. Hamas. Anything nearby is collateral damage, which is why the advise them to fuck off. I mean, evacuate.

 

[ll74]

Nobody fighting a war is squeaky clean.

And yeah, we can warn, but what are we going to do about it if they're not? Spank Hamas? Because so far THEY are the gross offenders. LOL. We've done fuck all so far. And it has to be effective and painful to be useful. And what about Russia? Just as bad as Hamas, if not worse.

The original comment basically said as much (which kicked off this back and forth)

And I added that I believe Hamas is actually putting citizens in harm's way purposely rather than targeting military targets and avoiding civilian deaths

I've commented plenty on Russia in appropriate threads

 

[ChloeTzang]

I've commented plenty on Russia in appropriate threads

My apologies. I haven't been following the Russia-Ukraine threads here for a while

 

[Chobham]

That is the thing that some people don't seem to understand. Hamas does not want to live side-by-side in peace no matter how borders or nations are configured. If the Israelis put down their guns they will be slaughtered - that has been the promise of the Arab world from the outset.

Meanwhile those who support the Palestinians want to paint Israel as the Johnny come lately colonizer. Whatever one thinks of how Israel was created they are not new here. Their claim to the land goes back thousands of years. Control of this area has switched between many different groups going back well over three thousand years (when King David established Jerusalem as the centre of the Jewish world). The Arabic dismissal of them is rooted in religious zealotry and arrogance - they have been told that Islam supersedes all other Abrahamic religions and therefore the Jews claim is invalid in their minds.

There it is!!!!!

"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (article 7, Hamas covenant)

That article in the covenant is clearly NOT about territory, it is about the extermination of the Jews as a people/race. In case you may be wondering where that edict is derived from, it is right out of the Quran. The Quran states, in essence, that the judgement day will not come about until ALL infidels and barbarians (barbarians being anyone who is not a believer in the Bible) are converted to Islam or killed so if you aren't a Muslim, that means YOU. It just so happens that in the eyes of Hamas the Jews are higher on the priority 'hit list' than the rest of us.

 

[ll74]

There it is!!!!!



That article in the covenant is clearly NOT about territory, it is about the extermination of the Jews as a people/race. In case you may be wondering where that edict is derived from, it is right out of the Quran. The Quran states, in essence, that the judgement day will not come about until ALL infidels and barbarians (barbarians being anyone who is not a believer in the Bible) are converted to Islam or killed so if you aren't a Muslim, that means YOU. It just so happens that in the eyes of Hamas the Jews are higher on the priority 'hit list' than the rest of us.

The best part about religion is that you can ignore whatever part of it you don't like.

Sects do it all the time

 

[jaF0]

This and the other case is what the Right's hate rhetoric leads to.

Michigan Man Charged for Post Threatening to 'Hunt Palestinians'​

The man has been charged with making a threat of terrorism over a social media post threatening Palestinian-Americans in the wake of the Israel-Hamas conflict.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1713874178284073296

https://twitter.com/x/status/1713936123636916495

https://twitter.com/x/status/1713918495455326344

https://twitter.com/x/status/1714025036149928007

 

[ll74]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1713874178284073296

https://twitter.com/x/status/1713936123636916495

https://twitter.com/x/status/1713918495455326344

https://twitter.com/x/status/1714025036149928007

This is entirely inappropriate and must be condemned by world leaders. That would make this war between two terrorist entities and make other refugee efforts pale in comparison

Other Israeli leaders must immediately condemn their President's words here. And certainly take action against him if he continues.



https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65295ee8e4b03ea0c004e2a8

 

[Chobham]

The best part about religion is that you can ignore whatever part of it you don't like.

Sects do it all the time

All well and good but the problem is NOT with those that choose to ignore the edict, is it?

 

[ll74]

All well and good but the problem is NOT with those that choose to ignore the edict, is it?

Of course it isn't.....extremist are the issue. People who use words in a book to rationalize their behavior

 

[RobDownSouth]

Good condensed summary of How We Got To This Point In Gaza (no paywall).

Also, there is a special place in hell for a military pilot who deliberately targets a hospital.

 

[AveryElle]

Good condensed summary of How We Got To This Point In Gaza (no paywall).

Also, there is a special place in hell for a military pilot who deliberately targets a hospital.

It’s the same place in hell reserved for ‘freedom fighters’ who hide in civilian buildings.

 

[Chobham]

Of course it isn't.....extremist are the issue. People who use words in a book to rationalize their behavior

Very well, now we've identified the problem. Now let's look at the numbers.

An older Pew Research poll of the Muslim world found that over 40% of the respondents were aligned with the Palestinians. Of that 40+% (we'll use 40% for simplicity), 10% believed that active violence was justified. There are approx. 1.8 billion Muslims in the world so 720 million are aligned with the Palestinians. 10% of that number is 72 million. What you see reported in the press...........occasionally.............is that "only a small percentage of Muslims are radicalized" and that is absolutely true, a mere 4%.......maybe. But that 4% is a huge number. That is not a trivial problem.

 

[ll74]

Very well, now we've identified the problem. Now let's look at the numbers.

An older Pew Research poll of the Muslim world found that over 40% of the respondents were aligned with the Palestinians. Of that 40+% (we'll use 40% for simplicity), 10% believed that active violence was justified. There are approx. 1.8 billion Muslims in the world so 720 million are aligned with the Palestinians. 10% of that number is 72 million. What you see reported in the press...........occasionally.............is that "only a small percentage of Muslims are radicalized" and that is absolutely true, a mere 4%.......maybe. But that 4% is a huge number. That is not a trivial problem.

I agree, it is not. We need leaders who want peace...who want the freedom that comes with peace.

 

[Chobham]

I agree, it is not. We need leaders who want peace...who want the freedom that comes with peace.

It does not matter what WE want, what matters is what THEY do.

 

[ll74]

It does not matter what WE want, what matters is what THEY do.

Of course. Our leaders need to promote that. No more conflating terror groups with all Palestinians.

 

[jomar]

Without Biden's idiocy, altho I should really say the Biden Administration, because we all know Biden is a puppet that they dose up and rollout to read from the teleprompter (as best he can), this whole thing would never have happened. But no, they had to undo everything Trump did in the Middle East and THIS is the end result. As for an aircraft carrier, really, what are they going to do? Bomb Hamas? I don't think we'll be joining in. Bomb Hezbollah? That didn't work out so well for us last time. Threaten Iran? Why would they do anything more? They've caused chaos, which was what Russian has no doubt paid them to do. They have Saudi Arabia increasingly onside. Why would they need to do anything else.

Thanks again, Joe. Trump has nothing to do with this. He's just the bogeyman Democrats jerk off to blaming everything for.

Fours years of peace in the Middle East under Trump. Renewed war and chaos under Biden. Biden has given $2 billion to Taliban since we pulled out. He tried to give $6 billion to Iran. He gave $250,000,000 to Hamas just before this latest shit. The FBI is now warning Americans to be on alert for copycat terror attacks. After opening the border and letting in millions of illegals.

Jeez, Biden even needs Jill to rescue him and show him how to get off a stage. The puppet masters must be laughing their heads off. And people like you believe all their bullshit.

No more needs saying.

Your MAGA hat is duly earned. Which means your view of facts is skewed.

 

[RandyRebecca]

I'm not painting the Palestinians as oppressors. They aren't. Israel is oppressing Gaza, but they aren't doing it for shits and giggles. They are doing it because Hamas has left them no choice.

Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. They do not want a resolution. They do not want peace. They are doing everything in their power - including putting their own people in harm's way - to trigger wider confrontation with the sole goal of the eradication of Israel.

Israel has blockaded Gaza and steals Palestinian land in the West Bank. The priority of Israel's leaders is to stop a Palestinian state at all costs. Their strategy is to call their critics "anti-semites" and to paint Palestinians as "Hamas". Nobody who can think for themselves is fooled.

And if "Israel" existing means that only Jewish people are first class citizens (confirmed officially by Israel's recent "nation state law"), why not put an end to Israel? The map of Palestine in 1946 showed where the majority Jewish Palestinian population of the time lived, and it wasn't all that much land compared to Palestine's whole land area. Palestine should be for people's of all religions and none, and Israel could never be that because Israel is the Zionist project to enforce apartheid.

 

[icanhelp1]

Of course. Our leaders need to promote that. No more conflating terror groups with all Palestinians.

I guess the million dollar question is how do you identify and separate them from each other?

 

[Chobham]

Of course. Our leaders need to promote that. No more conflating terror groups with all Palestinians.

I have not heard them paint ALL Palestinians with the Hamas brush, Hamas has been specifically mentioned. Further, ALL terrorist groups are not Hamas. And even within Hamas there are several separate groups. It seems that every wannabe radical in the jihadist world with some leadership ability raises their own little army. They'll work together when confronted with a common enemy but when frustrated in that goal they tend to kill each other. Not all that different than the Europeans during Feudalism. Quite frankly the Muslim world has been in a philosophical temporal stasis since the 12th century.

No matter how enlightened OUR leaders may be, we cannot change the nature of Islam. Islam has to change from within.

 

[icanhelp1]

Israel has blockaded Gaza and steals Palestinian land in the West Bank. The priority of Israel's leaders is to stop a Palestinian state at all costs. Their strategy is to call their critics "anti-semites" and to paint Palestinians as "Hamas". Nobody who can think for themselves is fooled.

And if "Israel" existing means that only Jewish people are first class citizens (confirmed officially by Israel's recent "nation state law"), why not put an end to Israel? The map of Palestine in 1946 showed where the majority Jewish Palestinian population of the time lived, and it wasn't all that much land compared to Palestine's whole land area. Palestine should be for people's of all religions and none, and Israel could never be that because Israel is the Zionist project to enforce apartheid.

If you could separate Hamas thugs from Palestinians would peace break out?

 

[RandyRebecca]

If you could separate Hamas thugs from Palestinians would peace break out?

You say nothing about Israel's crimes, the brutal imperialist occupier who treats all Palestinians in Gaza as the enemy.

 

[ll74]

I have not heard them paint ALL Palestinians with the Hamas brush, Hamas has been specifically mentioned. Further, ALL terrorist groups are not Hamas. And even within Hamas there are several separate groups. It seems that every wannabe radical in the jihadist world with some leadership ability raises their own little army. They'll work together when confronted with a common enemy but when frustrated in that goal they tend to kill each other. Not all that different than the Europeans during Feudalism. Quite frankly the Muslim world has been in a philosophical temporal stasis since the 12th century.

Religion should not make people do such stupid shit and certainly not make people want to kill others.

No matter how enlightened OUR leaders may be, we cannot change the nature of Islam. Islam has to change from within.

It's not the nature of Islam. It's the nature of leading interpretations of Islam.

No religion is immutable.

Islam is just a bunch of words on a page that people subscribe to....just as Buddhism, Christianity, Satanism....etc..etc.

They're just self help books.

 

[RandyRebecca]

Go back centuries, and the largely Muslim Middle East was "civilized" while the largely Christian European countries were tearing themselves apart with sectarian conflict over "crusades to control the holy land", over the "new world" and its gold, and then over Catholicism and Protestantism.

 

[Chobham]

Religion should not make people do such stupid shit and certainly not make people want to kill others.


It's not the nature of Islam. It's the nature of leading interpretations of Islam.

No religion is immutable.

Islam is just a bunch of words on a page that people subscribe to....just as Buddhism, Christianity, Satanism....etc..etc.

They're just self help books.

That is what I said. The theological philosophy of Islam has not changed since the 12th century. That is when the 'Golden Age' of Islam ended and that was due to a radical change in philosophy.