Stuck on a scene? Just plagiarize!

[Bramblethorn]

Whoa. Is this a thing you two have going on?

Even if it is, seems like the kind of bit that might be better done in private channels than in front of people who aren't in on the joke. Even faux antisemitism isn't a great idea among people who don't all know one another's comfort zones.

 

[XerXesXu]

Don't conflate your feelings about me with what actually took place in this instance. It seems to me that you've not read all the threads that are up on this issue. Don't be like the other prick, who tried to make this all about EB.

He should have ignored whoever, that's the point, he's a grown-up, he can make his own decisions, follow his own rules.

The only reason I mention you is because you're a hypocrite. You're quite happy to copy others' copyright materials without permission, you boast about it. But you don't embrace it like an adult and say 'I can do it and I don't care what anybody thinks, he should do the same," you're a 'My copying, good, your copying, bad' person, seeking to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds in search of popularity among the thoughtless and pointless.

 

[SimonDoom]

I've read the thread ad nauseam. Many of us are disgusted, many don't care, and yet we keep going and going. It's the Energizer Bunny thread about stealing work. We didn't like it, and he did it, and he felt bad that we didn't get he considered it a compliment to the original writer. He was ripped, and he answered the rips, but his answers weren't accepted. He took it down but didn't apologize, continued to defend himself, we responded, and so on, so on, and so on. Infnitum, infinity, never-ending. It's a love story, a hate story, and it's the oldest story. I fucking don't know. And goodnight, sweet prince.

The resurrection of zombie threads always poses the issue of whether we should just let things lie.

My attitude is that as far as 8L is concerned, yes, we should, whether or not some of us think he's responded properly. That chapter has closed.

But to the extent somebody raises a new issue or some new person who wasn't in on the conversation is seeking adviceor offering a perspective, I think it's OK. And to the extent we can have a little fun with it, that's OK, too, IMO.

 

[SimonDoom]

He should have ignored whoever, that's the point, he's a grown-up, he can make his own decisions, follow his own rules.

The only reason I mention you is because you're a hypocrite. You're quite happy to copy others' copyright materials without permission, you boast about it. But you don't embrace it like an adult and say 'I can do it and I don't care what anybody thinks, he should do the same," you're a 'My copying, good, your copying, bad' person, seeking to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds in search of popularity among the thoughtless and pointless.

I don't recall EB saying he copied others' copyrighted materials without their permission. When did he do that, or say that?

 

[MrHereWriting]

Now, I do have a question of my own. I'm working on my "Hammered" story for July, the Ode to Mickey Spillane one, and I've rather deliberately used a couple of very obvious Spillane lines, more as an in-joke that anything. I mention it in the intro, but I'm asking myself now if that's acceptable. There's allusions to noir novels and things all the way thru, and it's part of the wrap. Just wondered what everyone thinks about that.

You get a pass on everything, Chloe, especially for things you haven't done yet but may do because you're likable!!! Three cheers for Chloe!!!

I didn't resurrect the thread.

8L still has not acknowledged any wrong doing, so why is that whipping?

8 doesn't owe anyone anything, especially in a highly judgmental forum.

It's Simple

Anyone who has ever borrowed a line, a lyric, a catch phrase, or rewritten a scene from anywhere has done what 8 has done. When you take from a famous work, people say, "Oh, a reference, I get that!" And that makes it okay in everyone's eyes despite the fact that you are using other people's words to set your mood, your tone, your atmosphere, impress emotions upon people, etc.

If you read 8letters explanation, you'll know he was looking for nothing but insight into a topic he admittedly had no knowledge of. He took a bland sex scene, rewrote it (and I'm guessing a lot of authors have because I recognize the familiar all over the place) and used some of the same sentences (so little who the F cares? Sometimes he changed a word, so what?). Was it a mistake, yes, but a small one. If he had rewrote everything, as many erotic authors have done, that would have been okay despite the fact that it was someone else's scene? 8 didn't do it for fame or fortune and from what I know of 8, his sex scenes aren't the core of his story. It's the journey and emotional arc that make up the heart of his stories, and those were his.

This thread was started by an ex beta reader who had a bone to pick with him. (I know. I was told.) The more I read this thread, the less I care. It makes me want to do it myself, to the authors belittling him, just to upset people.

It happened. It's done. Move on.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Aaaand it begins again. I almost wish for somebody to start a new ratings thread.

 

[Voboy]

The resurrection of zombie threads always poses the issue of whether we should just let things lie.

My attitude is that as far as 8L is concerned, yes, we should, whether or not some of us think he's responded properly. That chapter has closed.

Except that he's saying he's considering reopening it. Hence, his stated reason for his reappearance.

I'm strongly thinking about it. Getting into this thread is a part of the process.

Seems it might not be as dead as many of us hoped it might be. Dammit.

 

[XerXesXu]

I don't recall EB saying he copied others' copyrighted materials without their permission. When did he do that, or say that?

He'll tell you. That'll save you the job of paying attention or doing the search yourself.

 

[djrip]

I don't recall EB saying he copied others' copyrighted materials without their permission. When did he do that, or say that?

XXX has shown plenty of times that he has no idea what plagiarism actually means. He's probably talking about quoting song lyrics or something equally asinine.

You get a pass on everything, Chloe, especially for things you haven't done yet but may do because you're likable!!! Three cheers for Chloe!!!



8 doesn't owe anyone anything, especially in a highly judgmental forum.

It's Simple

Anyone who has ever borrowed a line, a lyric, a catch phrase, or rewritten a scene from anywhere has done what 8 has done. When you take from a famous work, people say, "Oh, a reference, I get that!" And that makes it okay in everyone's eyes despite the fact that you are using other people's words to set your mood, your tone, your atmosphere, impress emotions upon people, etc.

If you read 8letters explanation, you'll know he was looking for nothing but insight into a topic he admittedly had no knowledge of. He took a bland sex scene, rewrote it (and I'm guessing a lot of authors have because I recognize the familiar all over the place) and used some of the same sentences (so little who the F cares? Sometimes he changed a word, so what?). Was it a mistake, yes, but a small one. If he had rewrote everything, as many erotic authors have done, that would have been okay despite the fact that it was someone else's scene? 8 didn't do it for fame or fortune and from what I know of 8, his sex scenes aren't the core of his story. It's the journey and emotional arc that make up the heart of his stories, and those were his.

This thread was started by an ex beta reader who had a bone to pick with him. (I know. I was told.) The more I read this thread, the less I care. It makes me want to do it myself, to the authors belittling him, just to upset people.

It happened. It's done. Move on.

Another one who doesn't comprehend what plagiarism is.

Lifting a paragraph, using multiple sentences word for word, is plagiarism. A plotline or an idea is fair game, it's not plagiarism to reuse those.

And sometimes, actual word for word copying falls under fair use. A snippet of a song lyric. A reference to a well known line. A parody. These are all expected to be recognized by the audience. Often they are attributed explicitly or implicitly. In some cases there is room for disagreement and debate about if something is fair use.

8's use was clear plagiarism. But could have been fixed easily by changing the words or getting permission from the author or at most taking down that one story.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Another one who doesn't comprehend what plagiarism is.

That's where you are wrong.

Stepping outside the realm of laws and definitions, I see no difference between what 8letters did and what many authors have done and continue to do: Using words that are not your own.

If you want a case of real plagiarism and not this hissy fit stuff, read about True Detective, season one.

 

[SimonDoom]

He'll tell you. That'll save you the job of paying attention or doing the search yourself.

Your response saves you from the responsibility of being accountable for your words. You made an accusation. It's not my burden to disprove it.

 

[XerXesXu]

XXX has shown plenty of times that he has no idea what plagiarism actually means. He's probably talking about quoting song lyrics or something equally asinine.

And you no doubt have shown many times that you don't know what it is. You probably believe it's what you 'think', or something equally asinine. Is that plagiarism?

 

[XerXesXu]

Your response saves you from the responsibility of being accountable for your words. You made an accusation. It's not my burden to disprove it.

Ask him. Is it true? Even an idle fellow like yourself should be up to that. I'm accountable, ask EB, to whom you think I should be accountable. That's how it works, or will you vanish like a snowflake in sunlight again?

 

[SimonDoom]

Ask him. Is it true? Even an idle fellow like yourself should be up to that. I'm accountable, ask EB, to whom you think I should be accountable. That's how it works, or will you vanish like a snowflake in sunlight again?

When you make an accusation against a fellow author in this forum, you should back it up with evidence. That's being accountable. Not doing so is being unaccountable, and dishonorable.

I dislike this cheap-shot style of argumentation, which you, and Tilan, and some others indulge in frequently. You can make a point without taking potshots at the personal qualities of other writers, their good faith, their knowledge, their competence, etc. If you think some people here misunderstand plagiarism, then cite authorities and evidence and make an argument. That's what I've done, in this and other threads where plagiarism and copyright infringement (two completely different things) have come up. Don't just tell people you know what you are talking about, because nobody is obliged to take such claims seriously. Show them.

 

[ElectricBlue]

He should have ignored whoever, that's the point, he's a grown-up, he can make his own decisions, follow his own rules.

The only reason I mention you is because you're a hypocrite. You're quite happy to copy others' copyright materials without permission, you boast about it. But you don't embrace it like an adult and say 'I can do it and I don't care what anybody thinks, he should do the same," you're a 'My copying, good, your copying, bad' person, seeking to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds in search of popularity among the thoughtless and pointless.

Where have I copied copyright material?

I've used the occasional song lyric, with an attribution in the text of the story, and I've used part of a poem translation, again with attribution. Show me where else I have done so.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Anyone who has ever borrowed a line, a lyric, a catch phrase, or rewritten a scene from anywhere has done what 8 has done. When you take from a famous work, people say, "Oh, a reference, I get that!" And that makes it okay in everyone's eyes despite the fact that you are using other people's words to set your mood, your tone, your atmosphere, impress emotions upon people, etc.

No, it doesn't make it "okay in everyone's eyes". I've talked repeatedly about how I think it's a bad idea to let somebody else's words do the emotional heavy lifting for one's own story. I'm not saying people should never quote - to the extent that art becomes part of the cultural background in which people live, sometimes it's appropriate to reference it, and one of my recent stories involves a character who sometimes has to pay attention to her own internal soundtrack to understand what she's feeling. But I do think, and have repeatedly said, that it's something to be careful of. I went back and edited my first story here because I realised I'd been leaning too heavily on somebody else's creation to convey things that I should've been doing myself.

But beyond that: yes, it does matter whether it's clearly a reference, or if the author is passing off somebody else's work as their own. It matters a lot. I'm surprised people are having difficulty with this.

If you read 8letters explanation, you'll know he was looking for nothing but insight into a topic he admittedly had no knowledge of.

Ah. We are obliged to take his explanations at face value, even when they directly contradict one another and the content of his stories, while believing the worst of the person who pointed out what he was doing. I get it.

He took a bland sex scene,

I am not sure that it's necessary or helpful to trash the author who he copied from. But if we're talking about "blandness", I could say something about the mindset that treats sex as generic filler content that can just be dropped into what I keep being told is a completely different story with different characters.

rewrote it (and I'm guessing a lot of authors have because I recognize the familiar all over the place) and used some of the same sentences (so little who the F cares?

And here we are back at Schrödinger's Plagiarism.

Sometimes he changed a word, so what?). Was it a mistake, yes, but a small one. If he had rewrote everything, as many erotic authors have done, that would have been okay despite the fact that it was someone else's scene?

But it wasn't. He himself said that the scene was 80-90% his own, and I think that's a fair assessment. Had he rewritten the remaining 10-20% - the specific copied bits that I bolded in the paragraph-by-paragraph comparison, that would've been fine.

8 didn't do it for fame or fortune and from what I know of 8, his sex scenes aren't the core of his story. It's the journey and emotional arc that make up the heart of his stories, and those were his.

"Yes, Your Honour, I did take my neighbour's hubcaps and put them on my car. But they're not the core of the car, the journeys it takes me on are the heart of it, and that's mine."

"Good point! Case dismissed."

This thread was started by an ex beta reader who had a bone to pick with him. (I know. I was told.)

I'm sure you were.

The more I read this thread, the less I care. It makes me want to do it myself, to the authors belittling him, just to upset people.

And we're back to "look what you made me do".

 

[MrHereWriting]

No, it doesn't make it "okay in everyone's eyes". I've talked repeatedly about how I think it's a bad idea to let somebody else's words do the emotional heavy lifting for one's own story. I'm not saying people should never quote - to the extent that art becomes part of the cultural background in which people live, sometimes it's appropriate to reference it, and one of my recent stories involves a character who sometimes has to pay attention to her own internal soundtrack to understand what she's feeling. But I do think, and have repeatedly said, that it's something to be careful of. I went back and edited my first story here because I realised I'd been leaning too heavily on somebody else's creation to convey things that I should've been doing myself.

I was speaking in general terms, but I agree with you. (I, myself, have been guilty of mentioning a song or two, and wasn't too happy about it a few months later.)

But beyond that: yes, it does matter whether it's clearly a reference, or if the author is passing off somebody else's work as their own. It matters a lot. I'm surprised people are having difficulty with this.

How do you define "someone else's work"?

8letters did reference one of the works in his forum post, which is how this started. (Shame on him for not remembering the second.) So, by referencing the author and giving them credit in the author's forum under his extended notes, then he REFERENCED the author(s) and is not guilty of plagiarism.

Case closed.

Ah. We are obliged to take his explanations at face value, even when they directly contradict one another and the content of his stories, while believing the worst of the person who pointed out what he was doing. I get it.

You're not obliged to do anything. I've spoken to 8letters outside of Lit, and I believe him.

I am not sure that it's necessary or helpful to trash the author who he copied from. But if we're talking about "blandness", I could say something about the mindset that treats sex as generic filler content that can just be dropped into what I keep being told is a completely different story with different characters.

I could have left my personal opinion about the scene in question out, but I didn't.

Edit: Maybe next time, I'll refrain.

And here we are back at Schrödinger's Plagiarism.

Good ol' Schrödinger. (Between us, I made that comment so that if I ever do publish another story, maybe, just possibly, people may wonder....)

But it wasn't. He himself said that the scene was 80-90% his own, and I think that's a fair assessment. Had he rewritten the remaining 10-20% - the specific copied bits that I bolded in the paragraph-by-paragraph comparison, that would've been fine.

I know: Neither he nor the author of the Mitch story are famous enough for people to "get it."

"Yes, Your Honour, I did take my neighbour's hubcaps and put them on my car. But they're not the core of the car, the journeys it takes me on are the heart of it, and that's mine."

"Good point! Case dismissed."

Have you been to California lately?

I'm sure you were.

PM 8letters if you like, he may inform you as well. But I saw how the thread starter came at him, and their intentions were too transparent not to notice. (And that was before I got the story.)

And we're back to "look what you made me do".

Everyone reacts in their own way.

If it didn't make you feel guilty, what do you care? He's not someone you need to teach life lessons to. Save that one for the people closest to you. It's a good one.

 

[XerXesXu]

When you make an accusation against a fellow author in this forum, you should back it up with evidence. That's being accountable. Not doing so is being unaccountable, and dishonorable.

I dislike this cheap-shot style of argumentation, which you, and Tilan, and some others indulge in frequently. You can make a point without taking potshots at the personal qualities of other writers, their good faith, their knowledge, their competence, etc. If you think some people here misunderstand plagiarism, then cite authorities and evidence and make an argument. That's what I've done, in this and other threads where plagiarism and copyright infringement (two completely different things) have come up. Don't just tell people you know what you are talking about, because nobody is obliged to take such claims seriously. Show them.

All done and dusted while you weren't paying attention. See your last post in another thread for your own assessment of your industry.

I don't care what you like. Perhaps your likes and dislikes are shaped by your inability to make a point. You know I know you don't understand what plagiarism is because we've been through this before. Plagiarism and Copyright are not two completely different things they overlap, but they have different contexts. Again, you refer to matters you slept through and it's for others to bring you up to speed. Not in the real world.

 

[SimonDoom]

Where have I copied copyright material?

I've used the occasional song lyric, with an attribution in the text of the story, and I've used part of a poem translation, again with attribution. Show me where else I have done so.

I've pointed this out before (and actually cited authority for it), but it bears repeating: If this is what you did, then it's not plagiarism. Plagiarism is when you pass off another's work as your own, almost always because you provide no attribution. Plagiarism is an ethical problem. It doesn't create, by itself, risk of civil or criminal liability. The all important issue with plagiarism is attribution. If you give it, it's not plagiarism, and if you don't, and a reasonable person would think that it is your work, then it's plagiarism.

Using a song lyric MIGHT be copyright infringement, but it depends on a variety of factors: how much of the original work you took, how you use it, whether you're making money, whether it's arguably a parody or a transformative work, etc. Copyright infringement is more of a matter of civil liability than ethics, although some look at it ethically as well. But it's hard to see how anyone could make an ethical charge of any meaningful kind if you, say, inserted two lines from Stairway to Heaven in your story and made it clear where the lines came from. The practical risk of civil liability is zero, and since you've given attribution there are no ethical concerns.

That's COMPLETELY different from what 8Letters did. I don't want to pile on because what he did was, I thought, pretty small potatoes, but it's still plagiarism. It's blatantly passing off another's work (in this case, specific sentences and parts of sentences) as one's own. Since plagiarism, unlike copyright, is a matter of ethics rather than potential civil liability, there's no meaningful threshold in terms of amount of use. Either you did it or you didn't.

MrHereWriting makes the point that 8Letters can be excused because he did make it clear what he did in this forum. I don't think that's quite right, because 90+% of those who read the story and offending text will never read anything at the Author's Hangout and will have no idea that the language isn't his. If a university professor publishes an article that contains plagiarism and then shortly afterward in another forum explains what he did, it's still plagiarism and it's wrong, although the admission should have some ameliorative effect.

I think it's important for authors here to send the message: don't pass off the work of other Literotica authors as your own. Categorically. Just don't do it. It's not piling on, or being overly judgmental, or being hypocritical, to make this point.

 

[XerXesXu]

Where have I copied copyright material?

I've used the occasional song lyric, with an attribution in the text of the story, and I've used part of a poem translation, again with attribution. Show me where else I have done so.

Where you admit, as above.

So why do you ask? Do you think that has some sort of cathartic effect, cleansing you of your sin? You'll recall, and SimonDoom is sure to tell you, attributing copyrighted material does not excuse infringement.

ps: Haha. Told you so. He's even followed the old adage, 'Never mind the quality, feel the quantity.'

 

[MrHereWriting]

MrHereWriting makes the point that 8Letters can be excused because he did make it clear what he did in this forum. I don't think that's quite right, because 90+% of those who read the story and offending text will never read anything at the Author's Hangout and will have no idea that the language isn't his. If a university professor publishes an article that contains plagiarism and then shortly afterward in another forum explains what he did, it's still plagiarism and it's wrong, although the admission should have some ameliorative effect.

Except that 8letters has to post his Extended Author's Notes first in order to be place a link to the post in his stories. He then edits the post to post a link to his story in the notes.

He referenced first, posted the story second. (As it is, when I finish a book or movie, I don't stay to read the credits.)

 

[XerXesXu]

I don't want to pile on because what he did was, I thought, pretty small potatoes, but it's still plagiarism. It's blatantly passing off another's work (in this case, specific sentences and parts of sentences) as one's own.

No, it's not (for the reasons we've been through before). If you believe what you 'think' is important, apply the acid test. Go to your front door and open it; do you see people queuing up to find out what you think? There may be a person who thinks you've not paid your electricity bill for two months and has come to disconnect you. If, otherwise there's nobody, that's who cares what you think - nobody.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Where you admit, as above.

So why do you ask? Do you think that has some sort of cathartic effect, cleansing you of your sin? You'll recall, and SimonDoom is sure to tell you, attributing copyrighted material does not excuse infringement.

This thread is about plagiarism, and your post was tantamount to accusing me of that. I suppose I could ask for an apology, but apparently real men never do that.

I've quoted song lyrics with attribution - in no way was I passing them of as my own. Where's the sin or hypocrisy, doing that?

 

[AwkwardMD]

No, it's not (for the reasons we've been through before). If you believe what you 'think' is important, apply the acid test. Go to your front door and open it; do you see people queuing up to find out what you think? There may be a person who thinks you've not paid your electricity bill for two months and has come to disconnect you. If, otherwise there's nobody, that's who cares what you think - nobody.

People do line up for my opinion. By your metric, that makes my opinion the most valuable one imaginable.

It's plagiarism.

 

[XerXesXu]

This thread is about plagiarism, and your post was tantamount to accusing me of that. I suppose I could ask for an apology, but apparently real men never do that.

I've quoted song lyrics with attribution - in no way was I passing them of as my own. Where's the sin or hypocrisy, doing that?

'Never apologise, never explain.' Who said that? Whoever, I give him credit.

You did boast that you went beyond fair use, and you used lyrics because they are readily recognised phrases which are evocative. 8 letters used phrases because he considered them evocative. 'My copying, good, your copying, bad.' Hypocrisy. If you could have written your own lyrics you would have, but you couldn't so you copied someone else.

The good news is that AI bots are getting rather good at creating lyrics, there are even bots that can tell if they'd be a hit, so you needn't copy other peoples' work anymore.