Why are Conservatives so obsessed with race?

[RandyRebecca]

My theory is that you are full of shit. My action is that you are now on ignore.

Wow. You are a sensitive soul. LOL. Not one of those "tough guy" Republicans are you?

 

[RoryN]

I love watching my thread getting bumped.

It might as well be pinned.

 

[Bn2f]

I voted Green in the last 3 presidential elections, i.e. Jill Stein in 2012 and 2016, and Howie Hawkins in 2020.

Hillary Clinton got what she deserved in 2016, i.e. a defeat. Of course, she and her Democratic colleagues didn't look inwards at themselves for what they had gotten wrong and done wrong. They instead said "Don't blame us Democrats. It's big, evil Russia you know". A pathetic way of continuing on their corporate course, including the obsession with race to divide the mass population.

You say that Clinton got what she deserved then Romney in 2012 and Trump in 2020 deserved losing too? There was finger pointing at Clinton for her VP pick and her ignoring Wisconsin and Michigan in the last days running up to the election. I've pointed out the republican autuposy report of 2012 and what happened there with their assessment. As a Green Party voter, what's the introspection on Hawkins losing and, even worse, Stein running not one, but 2 failed campaigns?

 

[Bn2f]

What's an example of a candidate speaking on race to bring voters together instead of dividing them?
Is that Obama? A democrat? Polling would suggest he appealed to that cross section more than any other.

 

[Bn2f]

And finally, as a Green Party voter who, I assume, can give an unbiased opinion to both parties - Is there anything that Donald Trump has said regarding the last election that gives you any pause for concern as Clinton's loss did for you in 2016?

 

[RandyRebecca]

You say that Clinton got what she deserved then Romney in 2012 and Trump in 2020 deserved losing too?

Of course.

There was finger pointing at Clinton for her VP pick and her ignoring Wisconsin and Michigan in the last days running up to the election.

And why do you think that she ignored Michigan and Wisconsin? It was also easier and more convenient for her and her party to blame Russia instead of looking inwards at themselves and their own actions for alienating people.

I've pointed out the republican autuposy report of 2012 and what happened there with their assessment. As a Green Party voter, what's the introspection on Hawkins losing and, even worse, Stein running not one, but 2 failed campaigns?

Hawkins has disappointed me since with his backing for sending arms to Ukraine.

You call it failed campaigns. Lack of big money is the main reason, largely due to the labor movement leaders backing the Democrats and thereby appeasing the liberal establishment.

What's an example of a candidate speaking on race to bring voters together instead of dividing them?

By focusing on class and wealth inequality as the main division in our society, rather than on race, gender, religion and trans issues. Ask yourself why they don't obsess over class like they do with race and gender.

Is that Obama? A democrat? Polling would suggest he appealed to that cross section more than any other.

No, it isn't Obama. Obama gave a lot of people hope, and a lot of it focused on his race. I wasn't fooled. He liked making execution lists to kill people in the Middle East by drone every Tuesday. His presidency was such a continuation of the same old failed policies of capitalist inequality that it led to Trump being elected president, as people desperately searched for a way out of the crisis.

And finally, as a Green Party voter who, I assume, can give an unbiased opinion to both parties - Is there anything that Donald Trump has said regarding the last election that gives you any pause for concern as Clinton's loss did for you in 2016?

As the old saying goes, for a big lie to work it has to be shrouded in truth. In this society that we live in, the big business billionaire capitalists pay for big political influence and rig the system in favor of themselves, and they wanted Donald Trump out of power. In that sense, it was a "stolen election". That's why the big lie is so powerful. This "democracy" that we have merely hides the fact that big business billionaires and bankers run capitalist society, and do so unconditionally with no real democratic accountability. This isn't a democracy that we live in, but a plutocracy.

 

[Bn2f]

 

[Bn2f]

Your first answer was the shortest, best, and most correct.

 

[Bn2f]

"Alienating people"
Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million. Russia DID meddle with our elections.

"Hawkins disappointed me since..."
I asked for a why into the failure of his campaign. You failed to look inwards to critique the Green Party's campaign. I want a viable Green Party. The best current way to do that is campaign finance reform and ranked choice voting. NO republican supports that.

"Focusing on class, wealth inequality."
Very confusing reply here with Sanders and Warren basically running on these issues and with both holding and using their Senate seats to continue speaking and influencing party line on these issues. And why exactly should labor back anti-union, low minimum wage touting republicans? Just an out of touch reply.

On Obama... You were not fooled by his call for a One America because you knew he was a capitalist whose policies caused the dems to lose to the person who he and his supporters claim is just the businessman to fix things.

The last reply is just straight "Head Up Ass" logic. Donald Trump does not agree with you. He is quite clear who he feels stole the election which goes to the overall theme of your arguments. When asked to critique the party you voted for - you could not. Time and time again you run quickly to your safe space of criticizing the democrats, blind to the danger sitting right in front of your face. It's almost like you're Jill Stein herself smiling, enjoying a meal at a table in Moscow, with the distinguished likes of patriotic American Michael Flynn and Putin himself.

 

[RandyRebecca]

"Alienating people"
Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million. Russia DID meddle with our elections.

The US are the ultimate meddlers in other countries' affairs. They overthrow, or try to overthrow, foreign governments that get in the way of their geopolitical ambitions. Israel interferes in US affairs far, far more than Russia does.

As for the popular vote you mention, does it really tell us that much when we consider that Clinton won California alone by well over 4 million votes, and that Clinton won 20 states to Trump's 30 states? Of all those who have lost presidential elections, only Gerald Ford in 1976 won as many as 27 states.

"Hawkins disappointed me since..."
I asked for a why into the failure of his campaign. You failed to look inwards to critique the Green Party's campaign. I want a viable Green Party. The best current way to do that is campaign finance reform and ranked choice voting. NO republican supports that.

Do any Democrats support that? As Eugene Debs used to say, I'd rather vote for what I want and not get it than vote for what I don't want and get it. He also said that the Democratic and Republican Parties both represent capital and are against labor. He learned that from bitter experience, having been a Democrat for over 20 years of his life.

"Focusing on class, wealth inequality."
Very confusing reply here with Sanders and Warren basically running on these issues and with both holding and using their Senate seats to continue speaking and influencing party line on these issues.

The Democratic Party is a one-time slave owners' party turned big business capitalist party. Bernie Sanders ended up supporting Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden when the DNC connived against him to stop him becoming their presidential nominee. Sanders, instead of using his political clout to start a Socialist Party to oppose both the Democrats and Republicans, backed corporate Democrats. Sanders says that Eugene Debs is his political hero, but he acts more like Franklin D. Roosevelt at best. Roosevelt's presidency, and his winning 4 presidential elections despite the establishment wanting him to lose, undid Debs' hard work of telling the working class of the US that both the Democratic and Republican Parties are parties of capital, with FDR's presidency reviving the illusion that the way forward for the left was through the Democratic Party. The labor movement needs to get back to Debs. All the problems of his time are still with us, and some of them are even worse today, like the lack of a mass Socialist Party of America.

And why exactly should labor back anti-union, low minimum wage touting republicans? Just an out of touch reply.

When did I say that they should back today's Republicans?

On Obama... You were not fooled by his call for a One America because you knew he was a capitalist whose policies caused the dems to lose to the person who he and his supporters claim is just the businessman to fix things.

"One America" means class collaboration. It's telling the working class and middle class of America to get behind the super rich capitalists to make "One America". In real terms, that means withdrawing our own program for the corporate class in the name of "One America". That's how I saw through it. In some ways, it's the Democratic version of "Make America Great Again" and "America First", only that Trump was calling for confrontation and conflict with political opponents, not subjugation to the opposition in the name of "unity" (i.e. class collaboration). That confrontational approach is a big reason why Trump has as much support as he has, or did. Sanders could have done the same for the left and labor, but he didn't.

The last reply is just straight "Head Up Ass" logic. Donald Trump does not agree with you. He is quite clear who he feels stole the election which goes to the overall theme of your arguments.

I'm explaining why the big lie has convinced the vast majority of registered Republicans that Joe Biden is an illegitimate president and that the 2020 election was rigged. It's because the big lie is shrouded in truth in the way that I explained. The democracy we have cannot touch the fact that the big business billionaire capitalists rig the system in their favor and actively worked hard politically to get Trump out of power. In that sense, the election was "stolen", so when Trump says the election is "stolen" it resonates with the Republican base and beyond.

When asked to critique the party you voted for - you could not.

I explained why Howie Hawkins disappointed me.

Time and time again you run quickly to your safe space of criticizing the democrats, blind to the danger sitting right in front of your face.

What danger in this that you're referring to? January 6? That was basically like what the US embassies do to governments in other countries, including in Ukraine in 2014, yet the official propaganda talks like the problem only began when Russia invaded in February 2022. Whenever the Democrats do wrong, they are blaming Russia, never looking at themselves and their own failures in terms of policies. The DNC worked overtime to stop Bernie Sanders becoming their nominee for president, even more so in 2020 than in 2016, and then they blame "Russia" for their failures so that they can carry on with the same corporate policies. Clinton in 2016 was particularly bad with it when she started losing "It's Russia".

Fighting Republicans means going after conservatism and its politics ruthlessly. No compromise, no "bipartisanship". Make Roe v Wade national policy in law, by presidential decree or by Congress, not via court ruling, create a nationalized health service free at the point of use for all people in the US. Get rid of the filibuster. Appeasing conservatives is the number one reason why the Republican Party in recent decades has gotten more and more extreme as time has gone on. Push them back, hard, and defeat them utterly.

It's almost like you're Jill Stein herself smiling, enjoying a meal at a table in Moscow, with the distinguished likes of patriotic American Michael Flynn and Putin himself.

That's just a personal smear attack, which is usually done by people who don't have political arguments left.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

On the thread title…

The ruling class sleeps much better if the proletarian peons fight among themselves and don’t unite to dispossess the masters.

Race is safe for the ruling class. Race does not move toward proletarian revolution.

 

[BluesDriver66]

See post #141. Kthx.



That's a lie. She did not label working-class whites "Deplorables" - she was specifically talking about Trump supporters who displayed "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic" tendencies. Let me know if you need this explained to you via a puppet show, idiot.

It was a fatal move politically. She should have known better. You hammer your opponents to try to get their voters. You don't insult their voters with broad generalizations by calling them deplorable racists, then expect to gain their votes. That's not the way you win. That's the way you lose votes.

If you want to win elections you tell voters how your plans and policies will help improve their lives better than your opponent. Not how you think they are deplorable racists that should fuck off and die. And coming from a person who laughs, parties, and loves to be seen and photographed with assholes who display their racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic tendencies when it suits them, she got her comeuppance in spades.

View attachment 2234507
Fucked around


Found out

 

[akatrex]

It was a fatal move politically. She should have known better. You hammer your opponents to try to get their voters. You don't insult their voters with broad generalizations by calling them deplorable racists, then expect to gain their votes. That's not the way you win. That's the way you lose votes.

If you want to win elections you tell voters how your plans and policies will help improve their lives better than your opponent. Not how you think they are deplorable racists that should fuck off and die. And coming from a person who laughs, parties, and loves to be seen and photographed with assholes who display their racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic tendencies when it suits them, she got her comeuppance in spades.

View attachment 2234507

View attachment 2234508

 

[Bn2f]

We just saw the 2016 election play out before us in a sexually text form.

Me (let's say I'm the Big D in this): I finally made it. I'm in, but what is all this shit I'm seeing people saying and entertaining? This can't be real?!
RR (let's say she's the G spot): I made it! I'm here too! Let me twitch wildly being contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian.
HS & BD66 (here as the right and left nipples, representing the undecided voter and the 1/3 non voters): Hey! I'm here, too! Why can't I get attention. Sex is so overrated!

Meanwhile... The limp dick dumbass who knows nothing, added nothing to the conversation, takes advantage of the internet to drop a shitty meme and walk away fucking us all up with herpes.

 

[Bn2f]

RR - I'm not going to engage with you anymore and it's not because I'm failing in arguing. It’s because your answers are always a riddle, wrapped in shit, mischaracterized into a theory, that's not worth the use as an enema. I do not believe you are who you say you are and, if you were, Eugene Debs would rise from his grave to slap the Russian dick from your mouth for only reading the intro to “Labor and Freedom” and coming here to act as if you’re now a tenured Harvard professor.

 

[Bn2f]

Imagine the Coverage… …if the races were reversed​

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/imagine-the-coverage…-…if-the-races-were-reversed.1587876/#post-96948372

RoryN, an apology is owed to you by me.
I’m sorry.
I asked questions that allowed the thread to stray when I should’ve only replied to direct links provided by you to the topic.
Again, my sincere apology to you.

 

[JohnEngelman]

I can agree with your points found in the surveys. But that doesn’t address the fact that these people, although realizing the benefits, still turn a blind eye and vote in office candidates who make no bones about taking away those very benefits.

Lower middle class whites and working class whites usually support domestic spending programs that benefit them. They also tend to be conservative on the issues of crime, rate, and immigration. Because the issues of crime, race, and immigration are easier for them to understand, they usually vote Republican.

Nevertheless, their support for domestic spending programs that benefit them frustrates Republican efforts to make specific budget cuts, and rightly so, in my opinion.

 

[JohnEngelman]

It isn't just the conservatives who are obsessed with race, but the liberals too. Why? Because they want to divide the working and middle classes and prevent any anti-establishment mass force on class lines against the billionaire capitalists. To this end, they will divide on race, gender, sexual orientation, trans issues, religion, abortion, gun ownership rights, "wokeness"/"fascism" etc. The conservatives and liberals in the establishment are basically saying "Don't look at us and don't blame us. Look over there and blame (insert group) instead". Unfortunately, so many people fall for it.

The worse thing with liberals when it comes to race is their obsession with "diversity", as if discriminating against working class whites (who Hillary Clinton called "deplorables") is something good. The capitalist system needs racism to function, to divide the working and middle classes.

The Democrat Party has come to be dominated by well educated, well paid bi coastal professionals. These lack the public enthusiasm for tax cuts for the rich the Republican Donor Class expresses, but they do not mind, because they benefit.

Liberal stands on social issues do not negatively impact the wealth of Democrat elites.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

The Democrat Party has come to be dominated by well educated, well paid bi coastal professionals…

I.E. Petty Bourgeoisie.

 

[Tayloroc]

In states that produce about 70% of the GNP.

 

[RandyRebecca]

It was a fatal move politically. She should have known better. You hammer your opponents to try to get their voters. You don't insult their voters with broad generalizations by calling them deplorable racists, then expect to gain their votes. That's not the way you win. That's the way you lose votes.

If you want to win elections you tell voters how your plans and policies will help improve their lives better than your opponent. Not how you think they are deplorable racists that should fuck off and die.

That's another problem with the Democrats though. They don't really introduce policies that seriously improve people's lives in the general population, they just pretend to do so in order to get people's votes, so when people start to see this and call politicians out on it, they tend to react like Hillary Clinton did. The lack of policies to seriously improve people's lives is even more the case with the establishment and corporate Democrats like Hillary Clinton, when compared to the rhetoric that Bernie Sanders was using in 2016 in calling for a class war on the billionaire class.

RR - I'm not going to engage with you anymore and it's not because I'm failing in arguing. It’s because your answers are always a riddle, wrapped in shit, mischaracterized into a theory, that's not worth the use as an enema. I do not believe you are who you say you are and, if you were, Eugene Debs would rise from his grave to slap the Russian dick from your mouth for only reading the intro to “Labor and Freedom” and coming here to act as if you’re now a tenured Harvard professor.

LOL. Funny post. So you have no answers to the political points that I've raised, so you get personal instead? That's so typical of those who can only do political debate as defined by the billionaire owned media. I think it's important to think from different viewpoints, since the same old politics leads us nowhere except for creating a lot of hot air in culture war arguments.

Lower middle class whites and working class whites usually support domestic spending programs that benefit them. They also tend to be conservative on the issues of crime, rate, and immigration. Because the issues of crime, race, and immigration are easier for them to understand, they usually vote Republican.

I think it's more important to get at the root causes as to why crime exists. Class and income inequality is a huge part of it.

Nevertheless, their support for domestic spending programs that benefit them frustrates Republican efforts to make specific budget cuts, and rightly so, in my opinion.

Absolutely. And the Republicans never stop whinging about it in a very annoying fashion.

The Democrat Party has come to be dominated by well educated, well paid bi coastal professionals. These lack the public enthusiasm for tax cuts for the rich the Republican Donor Class expresses, but they do not mind, because they benefit.

What the Republicans never seem to mention is how Wall Street went begging for state (i.e. taxpayer) bailouts in 2008, throwing any "market" and "anti-tax" principles overboard. It's amazing hypocrisy that defines politics in this country. Some of them even say that "America doesn't have true capitalism". I mean, WTF?

As for education, I'm a high school graduate who has had some college education (certainly no college degree). I'm not that high up the education ladder. I think I've self-taught myself most of the things that I know, and life has taught me. The internet has been a big help with it over the years, also.

Liberal stands on social issues do not negatively impact the wealth of Democrat elites.

Which is why the culture wars are such a method of distraction, to stop people focusing on the class and income inequality that is the root division in this society that we live in. The question is, how do we get politics in the mainstream to focus on the class and income inequalities instead of the culture war distractions? The Democrats don't do it. Bernie Sanders ended up supporting Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. The Republicans are extremely reactionary on social and economic issues, to an embarrassing and disgusting degree.

I.E. Petty Bourgeoisie.

Some of them. The ones who seriously control the Democratic Party are haute bourgeoisie.

 

[BluesDriver66]

That's another problem with the Democrats though. They don't really introduce policies that seriously improve people's lives in the general population, they just pretend to do so in order to get people's votes, so when people start to see this and call politicians out on it, they tend to react like Hillary Clinton did. The lack of policies to seriously improve people's lives is even more the case with the establishment and corporate Democrats like Hillary Clinton, when compared to the rhetoric that Bernie Sanders was using in 2016 in calling for a class war on the billionaire class.

The Hillary Clinton/Corporate Dem cheer squad doesn't seem to understand that. Lip service and happy talk is enough to secure their vote. As well it should. They are living comfortable lives. They are food secure, not homeless, have healthcare, etc. so when Democrats don't deliver they are completely fine with that.

 

[Holy_Seduction]

They don't really introduce policies that seriously improve people's lives in the general population, they just pretend to do so in order to get people's votes..,

Trotsky would say they can’t since political parties can represent only the interests of their members. Whether we’re speaking of the banking/investment, etc. [petty bourgeoisie] class I mentioned, or the ownership [factories, fields, forests, mines, logistical/communications/energy/etc. ‘big’ bourgeoisie you referenced, it is evident that NEITHER section of the ruling class has any commitment to the proletarian [toiling] class.

What else CAN be done but to sell a bill of goods?

 

[RandyRebecca]

Trotsky would say they can’t since political parties can represent only the interests of their members. Whether we’re speaking of the banking/investment, etc. [petty bourgeoisie] class I mentioned, or the ownership [factories, fields, forests, mines, logistical/communications/energy/etc. ‘big’ bourgeoisie you referenced, it is evident that NEITHER section of the ruling class has any commitment to the proletarian [toiling] class.

What else CAN be done but to sell a bill of goods?

The labor movement and socialists need their own party. Why are labor movements and unions backing Democrats and not forming their own party? That's the trade union bureaucracy, who have been dubbed the lieutentants of capital, and like things just the way they are. The USA over a century ago had its own Socialist Party, so in some ways the situation is worse today than it was then.

The USA is very much alone in this lack of a mass left party. Although in other countries, especially in European countries, these parties have bureaucratically betrayed workers as they cave in to big business pressure (a lot of it coming from their US "allies"). The USA can be different, since its in the heart of the beast.

Bernie Sanders could have done a lot in this regard, and didn't do any of it. It makes you wonder why he says Eugene Debs is his political hero.

 

[TrailerHitch]

I am sure I will be pounced upon by the same crowd that has labeled me, judged me and condemned me simply because of my state of residence but here goes anyways.

I don't judge people by how they look, their race or national identity, their sex, their religious affiliation, their sexual identity, or even their politics. I never make that an issue, until they push it in my face. I do not shove my beliefs or lifestyle in their face either. I treat everyone fairly and believe they are a good person until they prove otherwise. If people would stop grouping everything and deal with the people in front of them one on one and as an equal things would be so much easier.