Define "woke"

[Sean Renaud]

Who hates Elvis or the Beatles? The fact that they stole the music and dancing from black musicians robbing the community collectively of millions or billions of dollars over the decades does not equate to hatred of the individuals.

Though that's between you and your girlfriend its hard to support someone who thinks a rebellion over a tax makes you a hero, and arming yourself against police brutality that we KNOW is happening to this day makes you a villain does speak volumes about you as a person.

So basically you got a personal beef with your girlfriend and a flat out lie.

 

[Lazaran]

The real irony is, the far left tends to hate people who are good at history too. It infuriates them when you explain that their politically correct understanding of this or that event isn't even close to what really happened, and that not everything boils down to racism.

I get what you’re saying; but tell me which of the really big things in American society and life where there are gross disparities that racism isn’t the primary cause.

Wealth???

Communities???

Education???

Healthcare???

The “Justice” system???

Representation???

The “left” may get some specifics wrong, but generally, racism / discrimination (along with sexism and sociopathy) is the root of all gross disparities in America.

That ^ is why I lean left in my politics.

 

[YDB95]

Who hates Elvis or the Beatles? The fact that they stole the music and dancing from black musicians robbing the community collectively of millions or billions of dollars over the decades does not equate to hatred of the individuals.

Read my post again. I never said anyone hated them. And it is not "a fact" that they "stole the music and dancing from black musicians". They had influences, some of whom were Black and some were white; but that does not equate to theft in any way. This is exactly what I'm getting at: it's extremely popular on the left to accuse just about any white musician you could name of "stealing" everything s/he ever did from Black musicians, and it just is not that simple. Not even close.

Though that's between you and your girlfriend its hard to support someone who thinks a rebellion over a tax makes you a hero, and arming yourself against police brutality that we KNOW is happening to this day makes you a villain does speak volumes about you as a person.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I said about my ex. Are we even talking about the same post?

So basically you got a personal beef with your girlfriend and a flat out lie.

No, basically you read volumes of stuff into my comment that I never said. Maybe the righties are right about you and reading comprehension after all.

 

[YDB95]

The “left” may get some specifics wrong, but generally, racism / discrimination (along with sexism and sociopathy) is the root of all gross disparities in America.

That ^ is why I lean left in my politics.

Me too. But it was the specifics that I was referring to, along with the fact that lefties tend to be too quick to accuse others of racism.

 

[adrina]

Me too. But it was the specifics that I was referring to, along with the fact that lefties tend to be too quick to accuse others of racism.

After their collective apeshit response to Obama they kinda did that to themselves. Further the policies and politicians which they support and vote for tend to support and vote for policies unfavorable to black and brown folks. I get that they don't like being called racist - especially in any way reflexively. However it would be nice if they didn't reflexively support racist politicians and policies.

 

[YDB95]

After their collective apeshit response to Obama they kinda did that to themselves. Further the policies and politicians which they support and vote for tend to support and vote for policies unfavorable to black and brown folks. I get that they don't like being called racist - especially in any way reflexively. However it would be nice if they didn't reflexively support racist politicians and policies.

Again, this is not what I was referring to. I was referring to things like advocating for correct pronunciation of words - I've heard that called racist. (I admit it could be racist in some contexts, but not all.) I've been called racist because I argued in 2020 that no one should need to be convinced by that point that Trump was a racist. And so on.

 

[adrina]

Again, this is not what I was referring to. I was referring to things like advocating for correct pronunciation of words - I've heard that called racist. (I admit it could be racist in some contexts, but not all.) I've been called racist because I argued in 2020 that no one should need to be convinced by that point that Trump was a racist. And so on.

I understand. My point is simply that they've acted racist so often so regularly that they've made it not only easy but mostly accurate to call them racist. While there is some over sensitivity, the reality is that they have a documented history of racism and bigotry.

Is it right to call them racist all the time? Not really. But do they support racism the majority of the time? Yes.

So on balance... while it's not helpful to cry wolf, how much of it is really crying wolf?

 

[Lazaran]

Me too. But it was the specifics that I was referring to, along with the fact that lefties tend to be too quick to accuse others of racism.

Well sometimes “the specifics” have some legitimacy.

There certainly were ( are?) some racist practices in the music industry.

The cover era and the basic theft of songs is not a proud moment in American history.

It’s a bit more complicated than that ^, but denying race played a role is revisionist at best.

*nods*

 

[Sean Renaud]

Read my post again. I never said anyone hated them. And it is not "a fact" that they "stole the music and dancing from black musicians". They had influences, some of whom were Black and some were white; but that does not equate to theft in any way. This is exactly what I'm getting at: it's extremely popular on the left to accuse just about any white musician you could name of "stealing" everything s/he ever did from Black musicians, and it just is not that simple. Not even close.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I said about my ex. Are we even talking about the same post?

No, basically you read volumes of stuff into my comment that I never said. Maybe the righties are right about you and reading comprehension after all.

Elvis that out stole, didn't we learn in the 90s a lot of his music wasn't even written by him? I mean the only difference between him and the black guy was who could get booked. That's not his fault, its just a fact. ITs not "Just about any white musician" either. Nobody talks shit about Eminiem, he made his own way. If anything he had a harder time breaking in than he might otherwise have had had.

Hell is there any white artist in the last 30 years accused of theft? Some were as you said influenced. I think its undeniable that the boy bands were heavily inspired by groups like the Temptations. But this wasn't the Temptations performing in back alleys and the Backstreet Boys being on TV.

It has everything to do with what you said about your ex, that was a personal problem.

 

[YDB95]

Elvis that out stole, didn't we learn in the 90s a lot of his music wasn't even written by him?

I'm guessing you mean "flat-out stole", but no, we did not learn in the '90s that a lot of his music wasn't even written by him. We knew in the '50s that none of it was written by him. He was a singer, not a songwriter. Most of his hits were originals, written for him by professional songwriters (a very common practice in that era, and some were Black and some were white). The relative few that were covers were about evenly split in terms of whether the original artist was Black or white, and they were almost always of songs that were several years old and whose original versions had had a fair chance to be hits in their own right.

What you might be thinking of (but I doubt it, if you thought he was widely believed to have written his own songs) was that a few of his early hits were credited to him as well as the real writer(s). That was the work of his unscrupulous manager, and it was always an open secret that he hadn't really had anything to do with writing the songs.

I mean the only difference between him and the black guy was who could get booked. That's not his fault, its just a fact.

That was one difference, but not the only one.

ITs not "Just about any white musician" either. Nobody talks shit about Eminiem, he made his own way.

Just because you haven't heard it said about other white musicians doesn't mean it hasn't happened. And yes, there certainly has been criticism of Eminem (although there's been more controversy over his misogynistic, homophobic lyrics than over his success in a traditionally Black genre). And how do you figure he "made his own way" in a way Elvis didn't?

Hell is there any white artist in the last 30 years accused of theft?

Eminem, for one!

Some were as you said influenced. I think its undeniable that the boy bands were heavily inspired by groups like the Temptations. But this wasn't the Temptations performing in back alleys and the Backstreet Boys being on TV.

That analogy doesn't fit either of the acts I brought up in the first place either.

It has everything to do with what you said about your ex, that was a personal problem.

You didn't even address what I discussed with my ex in any way.

 

[YDB95]

I understand. My point is simply that they've acted racist so often so regularly that they've made it not only easy but mostly accurate to call them racist. While there is some over sensitivity, the reality is that they have a documented history of racism and bigotry.

I don't disagree at all. But that's not what I was talking about in the first place. I was talking about lefties who call even their allies racist. The right, which has been racist for decades and is becoming more openly so by the day, has nothing to do with what I was referring to.

So on balance... while it's not helpful to cry wolf, how much of it is really crying wolf?

More of it than you might think, that's how much.

There certainly were ( are?) some racist practices in the music industry.

Most definitely there were. But that's got nothing to do with whether Elvis or the Beatles "stole" anything from anyone.

The cover era and the basic theft of songs is not a proud moment in American history.

True. But again, neither of the artists I mentioned participated in that. Elvis is often accused of as much, but it just ain't so. What Pat Boone (and the Crew Cuts and Georgia Gibbs and a few other acts) did was record note-for-note copies of then-new songs by Black artists, where the only immediately discernible differences were 1) an identifiably white voice, and 2) any salacious lyrics were sanitized (i.e. "Boy you don't know what she do to me" became "Pretty little Suzie is the girl for me"). These were then released into direct competition with the originals while they were still on the charts, in a market where everyone knew the white version had massive advantages, no matter how much better the Black version was.

That is theft of songs, no doubt about it. But Elvis never did that. As I said above, most of his hits were originals. When they were covers, they were always of songs that were several years old (in some cases several decades old - "Are You Lonesome Tonight" dates from 1923, and "Love Me Tender" is set to the melody of a Civil War era ballad), and they were not stylistic copies. He did them in his own style. If anything, Elvis may have put an end to the practice of copycat covers, by bringing rock and roll firmly into the mainstream once and for all so Black artists were more viable there. (Whether he was responsible or not, the practice did die out right around the time he became a star.)

As for the Beatles, they recorded some covers on their albums, but all their hit singles were originals. They did have Black influences, but no one - Black or white - who came before them sounded like them. That's why they were so monumental.

It’s a bit more complicated than that ^, but denying race played a role is revisionist at best.

No one here is denying that race played a role. The issue is whether or not it's fair to say Elvis and the Beatles were guilty of cultural appropriation. You can acknowledge that race was an issue without condemning them for things they just didn't do.

 

[Lazaran]

I don't disagree at all. But that's not what I was talking about in the first place. I was talking about lefties who call even their allies racist. The right, which has been racist for decades and is becoming more openly so by the day, has nothing to do with what I was referring to.

More of it than you might think, that's how much.


Most definitely there were. But that's got nothing to do with whether Elvis or the Beatles "stole" anything from anyone.

True. But again, neither of the artists I mentioned participated in that. Elvis is often accused of as much, but it just ain't so. What Pat Boone (and the Crew Cuts and Georgia Gibbs and a few other acts) did was record note-for-note copies of then-new songs by Black artists, where the only immediately discernible differences were 1) an identifiably white voice, and 2) any salacious lyrics were sanitized (i.e. "Boy you don't know what she do to me" became "Pretty little Suzie is the girl for me"). These were then released into direct competition with the originals while they were still on the charts, in a market where everyone knew the white version had massive advantages, no matter how much better the Black version was.

That is theft of songs, no doubt about it. But Elvis never did that. As I said above, most of his hits were originals. When they were covers, they were always of songs that were several years old (in some cases several decades old - "Are You Lonesome Tonight" dates from 1923, and "Love Me Tender" is set to the melody of a Civil War era ballad), and they were not stylistic copies. He did them in his own style. If anything, Elvis may have put an end to the practice of copycat covers, by bringing rock and roll firmly into the mainstream once and for all so Black artists were more viable there. (Whether he was responsible or not, the practice did die out right around the time he became a star.)

As for the Beatles, they recorded some covers on their albums, but all their hit singles were originals. They did have Black influences, but no one - Black or white - who came before them sounded like them. That's why they were so monumental.

No one here is denying that race played a role. The issue is whether or not it's fair to say Elvis and the Beatles were guilty of cultural appropriation. You can acknowledge that race was an issue without condemning them for things they just didn't do.

Yeah, I was talking “Big Pocture” racism in the music industry as a whole.

That is why I prefaced my comments with:

“Well sometimes “the specifics” have some legitimacy.” - I guess I should have emphasized the word “some”.

And like everything else in America, certain “non-racist” artists still benefited from the racist status quo. - White Americans as a whole still do to a large extent.

There were, of course, several moments in American history where black Americans almost achieved a kind of critical mass in staking their claim as “Equal Americans” - Service in WWII, Tulsa’s “Black Wallstreet”, the Harlem Renaissance, etc, but unfortunately “something” put a damper on their dreams.

I always wonder what would have happened if white America had behaved differently at several of those key inflection points in our history.

I guess we’ll never know……

 

[Sean Renaud]

Mostly cus I don't give a shit what your ex said or not, that's a personal issue not something that can be remotely extrapolated to a mainstream opinion.

If Em is primarily accused of being a bigot which he kinda is or at least he fronts like one that sounds a separate issue.

The rest of your argument is really just you being super pedantic.

 

[YDB95]

The rest of your argument is really just you being super pedantic.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you really tipped your hand with "didn't we learn in the 90s a lot of his music wasn't even written by him?" It's hard to imagine a more concise way to illustrate that you know nothing about the topic at hand.

 

[ll74]

Sounds horrible! Is the GOP aware of this? Oh wait....it's their definition.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1635803908449656832

 

[ll74]

My post (#9) mirrors the sentiments here - though I do believe the tweet is more succinct

https://twitter.com/x/status/1636020067769937927

 

[Sean Renaud]

You're entitled to your opinion, but you really tipped your hand with "didn't we learn in the 90s a lot of his music wasn't even written by him?" It's hard to imagine a more concise way to illustrate that you know nothing about the topic at hand.

Okay my history on a man I don't care about was off. WOOOOOOOOO.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1636164242155143168

 

[Colonelinguist]

It's primarily used by the right to whine about the left. Spend five mins on Twitter and see who is using it and why.

…finally.

 

[Pad_Foot]

Note? The “Stones” took BB King on their US tour in 1969(?) and introduced America to him… and others

But? Their album at Muscle Shoals was backed by a white studio group of the Swampers.., Aretha got RESPECT and other backups from the same white guys, influenced by”Black” music history? Hell yes!!

I think the owner of that studio recorded a LOT of original American artists for posterity

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

According to the right, it means, “the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them."

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

A radical belief system suggesting that our institutions are built around discrimination, and claiming that all disparity is a result of that discrimination. It seeks a radical redefinition of society in which equality of group result is the endpoint, enforced by an angry mob. Where there are no men or women only whatever. Where all whites are racist. WHere parents are enemies of society and should have no say in their childs eduaction

This accurately describes how the word is currently defined by those of us who use it. In much the same way usage of the word “gay” has changed, the word “woke” has evolved. I don’t think the OP and some others in this thread approve of this definition but it does fit the widespread usage of the term.

 

[adrina]

A radical belief system suggesting that our institutions are built around discrimination, and claiming that all disparity is a result of that discrimination. It seeks a radical redefinition of society in which equality of group result is the endpoint, enforced by an angry mob. Where there are no men or women only whatever. Where all whites are racist. WHere parents are enemies of society and should have no say in their childs eduaction

That describes your fears. Which are influenced by hysteria, fear and propaganda. You are easily manipulated.

Even Desantis and his lawyers know what it means. Despite his - and your - efforts to use that fear to beat back any form of representation for marginalized citizens in our country.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Here’s another clarifying definition of “woke” as it is widely used these days. Very similar to the definition posted by specchio.

“Wokism is the belief that (1) all of society is currently and intentionally structured to oppress, (2) all gaps in performance between large groups illustrate this, and (3) the solution is 'equity' - proportional representation w/o regard to performance.”

 

[DeluxAuto]

Here’s another clarifying definition of “woke” as it is widely used these days. Very similar to the definition posted by specchio.

“Wokism is the belief that (1) all of society is currently and intentionally structured to oppress, (2) all gaps in performance between large groups illustrate this, and (3) the solution is 'equity' - proportional representation w/o regard to performance.”

That's an opinion of a made-up word. Just ask DeSantis what the definition is.